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Is this the end of TS ??
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Is this the end of TS ?? // Roundtable
Post by wireframe // Jul 26, 2008, 7:58am
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wireframe
Total Posts: 62
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Hi everyone,
I have downloaded last version of TS 7.6 for free today. Like many of you I bought TS untill today.
Now TS 7.6 is for free. I don't understand this sort of practice, it will be better to all of us who bought TS have V-Ray or all of courses for free not the old ones ...
Thanks for reading
Phil
owner of TS + V-Ray
EDIT : Oups it is 7.6 |
Post by JimB // Jul 26, 2008, 8:05am
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JimB
Total Posts: 341
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That would be TS 7.6 |
Post by frootee // Jul 26, 2008, 8:06am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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to answer your post title, no this is not the end of 7.6. It is still going strong. |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 26, 2008, 9:49am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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As I see it, 2 things are going to keep TS alive and well for many years to come.
1) they are owned by Microsoft
2)a lively user base using and enjoying it.
Rich |
Post by parva // Jul 26, 2008, 10:07am
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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I don't comment this but a nice chinese proverb:
large things break to small pieces, small pieces decay to dust. ;) |
Post by jayr // Jul 26, 2008, 10:08am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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also i wonder if updates will happen more often now, seen as they don't have to save all the changes to make it worth paying for.
I suppose it depends on the size of the team they still have working on TS now. |
Post by splinters // Jul 26, 2008, 10:14am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I don't comment this but a nice chinese proverb:
large things break to small pieces, small pieces decay to dust. ;)
Well, Parva, I understand the proverb but not the context...:confused:
As for tS7.6; this is just the beginning, not the end...but the beginning of what...I do not know.... |
Post by splinters // Jul 26, 2008, 10:15am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I suppose it depends on the size of the team they still have working on TS now.
MS has 60000 employees...:p |
Post by jayr // Jul 26, 2008, 10:24am
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jayr
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MS has 60000 employees...:p
i say lets get 2000 of them working on dynamic hair ;) |
Post by Délé // Jul 26, 2008, 10:28am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I'm not sure where all this loom and gloom is coming from. :confused:
I'm sure there will be both pros and cons with the path Caligari/MS have chosen. As is with any decision. IMO though, the potential benefits outweigh the costs. There are quite a few doors that have opened with all this. More ways for tS users to make money and more potential for tS to expand with 3rd party tools. I certainly don't see tS crumbling to dust anytime soon. |
Post by Vizu // Jul 26, 2008, 1:05pm
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Vizu
Total Posts: 628
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Parva ! right and this is what i think about the new way of caligari. :( |
Post by cline.michael // Jul 26, 2008, 1:29pm
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cline.michael
Total Posts: 4
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This is just another case of inadequate communication by Caligari. Users want to know a clear direction from the company. Releasing the product free with no explanation is extremely confusing. I don't even want to waste my time downloading 7.6 if this is it.
The way i see it, the product is still very broken. They need to fully merge all features of modeler into workspace. I want a timeline on when this will occur. The product also is completely useless for any large-scene creation and management as is. You can't even navigate through more than few feet at a time without digging in deep and modifying the widgets yourself.
I don't have time to waste fixing and recoding the product from the ground up via scripting, or time to wait for someone else to fix it. |
Post by johnhoward // Jul 26, 2008, 1:31pm
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johnhoward
Total Posts: 231
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My bet is this: making 7.6 free will enormously expand the user base, and thus the customer base for 8.0 (no more model side!)
Because 7.6 was free, I wrote to a graphic-artist friend to get it quick and she wrote back that she had and also had written to her son - a contractor - to get it for architectural mock-ups. Multiply that by thousands of people.
I believe TrueSpace is such a great program that no one at Microsoft would consider letting it die.
I predict a good price on 8.0. I will pay it happily. For Caligari, it will more than cover the cost of giving 7.6 away for free.
Caligari/MS is a very smart, very creative group of people. We are lucky to have them thinking this stuff up for us. |
Post by splinters // Jul 26, 2008, 2:18pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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This is just another case of inadequate communication by Caligari. Users want to know a clear direction from the company. Releasing the product free with no explanation is extremely confusing. I don't even want to waste my time downloading 7.6 if this is it.
The way i see it, the product is still very broken. They need to fully merge all features of modeler into workspace. I want a timeline on when this will occur. The product also is completely useless for any large-scene creation and management as is. You can't even navigate through more than few feet at a time without digging in deep and modifying the widgets yourself.
I don't have time to waste fixing and recoding the product from the ground up via scripting, or time to wait for someone else to fix it.
Mmmm...how do you know it is very broken if you have not downloaded it?
They are 'merging' the model side features but concentrating on newer, better ones too.
Why should you get a timeline because you demand it?
I have seen massive scenes running very smoothly (see Parva's demo's)
Who is asking you to 'fix or recode' anything?
tS is free, accept it or go elsewhere-there really is no place for complaining about something you paid absolutely nothing for... |
Post by alberteric // Jul 26, 2008, 2:31pm
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alberteric
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Right! Splinters...
...and THANKS Roman. |
Post by TylerZambori // Jul 26, 2008, 3:59pm
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TylerZambori
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Mmmm...how do you know it is very broken if you have not downloaded it?
They are 'merging' the model side features but concentrating on newer, better ones too.
Why should you get a timeline because you demand it?
I have seen massive scenes running very smoothly (see Parva's demo's)
Who is asking you to 'fix or recode' anything?
tS is free, accept it or go elsewhere-there really is no place for complaining about something you paid absolutely nothing for...
You know, I hate the "it's free so you'd better not complain" thing.
It doesn't mean I don't think free isn't nice either, for those who didn't
pay for it, but I dislike that attitude.
Even if there is no money involved, (and for me there was), there is
another investment: investing yourself, your time, and your talent
into it. It's still a big commitment. |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 26, 2008, 4:09pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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My suggestion to all the Doom sayers and complaining about a free 3D product, is go ahead and melt your plastic and spend several thousands dollars on another 3D product if it will make you feel better.
That way, you can be financially invested in a product along with whining and complaining. :) |
Post by joseparrot // Jul 26, 2008, 4:12pm
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joseparrot
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Sounds like a paradox. I'm not happy with tS for free.
If the core, the main product is free, how much can a 3rd part developer ask for a plugin or a designer for a model? Probably independent developers will disappear.
If it is free, what can a user expect as support or guarantee?
May a professional studio go to tS, motivated by its superb features, if no company can survive if sells their products for none? Will Caligari remain in the market? Will tS, as we know and love, survive?
Will tS to be a new kind of FoxPro?
I don't think tS users will grow as much. OK, a lot of new people will download it. BTW I have download version 3.2 for free and loved it, but the price zero wasn't the main reason to have it.
tS prices are already attractive and affordable, mainly if we consider the richness of features. The sale promotions are good enough to encourage us. Remember tS 7.5 for $200?
I have some doubts.
Is 7.6 free because version 8 is entirely different and uncompatible with previous versions? From my own experience, MS forces me to go to Vista if buying a new PC; everyday I'm pushed to upgrade Media Player; as a programmer, forced to use VC 2005 (and now 2008), which forces me to use .net and CLI/CLR, and so on. Unfortunately I don't see tS as in the past.
As per my MS experience, I expect in the next tS version, when we save a scene, cob files will be incompatible with previous one, it will require .net 4, which runs only in Vista SP5, which requires Internet Explorer 15, which doesn't support PDF and Flash, scripting will be C#plusplus (a new proprietary language), and so on. Hope this ugly scenario is only in my sad mind.
Jose |
Post by Breech Block // Jul 26, 2008, 4:23pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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I usually refrain from all these pointless (and sometimes endless :rolleyes: ) debates on the forum as to why this and how much\long that. However, I've decided to make an exception today as this week has seen an exceptional event.
In my opinion, a lot of people seem to be expressing either an extraordinary negative viewpoint or their outlook on the way the world works is very naive. Microsoft is a financial giant of a corporation, but there current success relies heavily on the sales of OS's. If you look at future technological predictions, the very idea that PCs will need an OS could well be obsolete inside 2 decades. Therefore, in order to survive, MS needs to diversify its portfolio. The X-Box 360 is part of that diversification process and so is trueSpace. Why trueSpace, because like the case of Sony and its initial grip on the console market, MS have looked at the likes of Autodesk and Maya/3D Max and seen a potentially huge revenue stream. So, how does MS go about taking on the big boys. Simple, get your foot in the door, create a huge user base and then release a competitive product. Well the first 2 are almost mission accomplished. Now, fast forward 3 years to the release of trueSpace 8. Full 64 bit architecture, running Direct X 11 (announced last week), full integration with Internet Explorer, Vista and Windows 7 compatible and a huge user base of tS 7.6 owners and plug-in developers who have fed their knowledge, experience and wish list to Caligari for the past 36 months. If I worked for Autodesk, I'd start making sure my CV was up to date.
Rant over, I'd like to take this opportunity to say a big well done to all the guys and galls who are taking the time to help out all the new users and a special thanks to Roman and all the staff at Caligari for having faith in both their product and users. |
Post by jhowell // Jul 26, 2008, 4:36pm
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jhowell
Total Posts: 400
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Hi, I must chime in with my support. Please read this ...
1. I started Truespace 20 years ago. I have been only using the "Workspace" side of Truespace 7.5 and now 7.6 for quite awhile now. Why? One reason is I render over 100,000 (yes thousand) realtime frames in a bit over an hour. Not a week or two but an hour or two. With stunning looking results.
See this post...
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5907
2. I have been monitoring many blogs and usergroups and forums. The buz on the new free Truespace 7.6 is taken over like wild fire. Wait and see how popular Truespace gets and how popular the Truespace forum gets. This is extremely unusual (and brilliant in my opinion) for a major software to go totally free.
3. This is huge. Microsofts Virtual Earth, 3dVia.com and Truespace are partners together. 3dvia.com (maker of Virtools, the incredible interactive 3d web interactive real time viewer and 3d animation software that sold for years for $10,000). They are working together and growing with Truespace. See this post ...
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5842
4. My main 3 softwares now are Truespace 7.6, Softimage 6.5 and Poser Pro. People mention bugs in Truespace? My XSI locks up every night. Poser Pro (also Poser 7) renders as slow as a turtle. Not 100,000 frames in an hour or two like Truespace.
5. Blender is FREE and look at the support. Tons of blogs, magazines, books. And a massive userbase. Blender has stunning features but is a real pain (I know, dont get after me) to learn and use. But look at what keeping it free has done for growth and support.
Truespace will take off (in my opinion) like you will not believe!
Anyway, Iam one of Truespaces biggest supporters. 20 years and going strong ...:banana:
http://4webs.biz/truespacestuff/june27imported3dsstuff.gif |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 26, 2008, 4:48pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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My suggestion to all the Doom sayers and complaining about a free 3D product, is go ahead and melt your plastic and spend several thousands dollars on another 3D product if it will make you feel better.
That way, you can be financially invested in a product along with whining and complaining. :)
Beautifully put James!!;)
Seems to me that many people aren't quite getting what is happening here - many folk are still looking at the internet like it was 5 years ago. The big picture that many fail to appreciate is the utter inevitability of a fully 3d web experience. VE and tS are the beginnings of that wave. VRML and other earlier technologies did not have todays computers or todays bandwidth. Tomorrows computers, tomorrows band width will be exponentially greater making 3d web environments inevitable.
2nd life is like a Model T ford - it's works but it's not a Lexus or a Hummer.
So MS wants people to use the internet - so they give away Internet Explorer and Lo and Behold! Everyone uses the internet with IE (or something similar - when was the last time you paid for a Net Browser?)
Now, (because it is the inevitable way of the future) MS wants people to create and use a 3d web - so they bought Caligari with it's groundbreaking realtime and collaborative technology - and , just like IE, they've made it free.
This is NOT about competing with Carrara or Maya or any other 'Traditional' or ' Industry' apps like Maya. This is about building something new, bigger and better - and it's not really about beating Google and Sketchup either, although it is about competing with them. Competition is vital for healthy economic growth.
tS is free so people will use it - the people who use it will drive new economies - think 2nd life on speed AND steroids - which will increase and extend the demand for other associated MS products - Operating systems, server software, and of course - the big money spinner, advertising revenue.
As more folk use an increasingly 3d web more other folk will want to use it to advertise using the 3d web which means more sales of MS related products.
In this context tS 7.6 is like the free plastic toy that gets you to buy that particular brand of cornflakes.
Microsoft is very unlikely to lose anything here - trueSpace has just become the tool of choice for building the new web.
I predict it will remain free for the foreseeable future and will also undergo significant continuing development, both from MS caligari and from 3rd party developers. I think it's also likely that truePlay (or it's equivalent) will be eventually bundled and integrated with internet explorer and will also be free.
I also predict that the doom and gloomers will also soon have something else to be gloomy about - and that's that they didn't get on board the 3d web VE tS gravy train when they had the chance. To them I say, Hasta La Vista baby! See you later when you decide to catch up.
Two things I want to say in closing - firstly, this free release of tS has BIG ramifications - think as big as you can and then think bigger. From no on the internet has just become a different place - a 3d place.
Secondly Roman is a freaking genius! There is a good possibility history will remember his name the same way we remember Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 26, 2008, 5:02pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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You know, I hate the "it's free so you'd better not complain" thing.
It doesn't mean I don't think free isn't nice either, for those who didn't
pay for it, but I dislike that attitude.
Even if there is no money involved, (and for me there was), there is
another investment: investing yourself, your time, and your talent
into it. It's still a big commitment.
Interesting response Tyler - I'm not sure I get it though. For me the ability to invest my time and talent is a reward. When one makes an investment of any kind you must nurture it and grow it in such a way that it gives you a meaningful reward - whether it be financial or simply the pleasure from having created something special.
If there was no reward involved no-one would have spent any money in the first place. I spent my money, the reward was the satisfaction of being able to produce my art and generate an effective income about 80 times larger than my original investment - as a byproduct!
Sorry Dude and all due respect but to me your post is a waste of your own energy. You can complain as much as you like but there are too many other people using their energy to capitalise on their investment of time, 'talent' and money to really care that much. |
Post by splinters // Jul 27, 2008, 12:22am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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My response to that post was more about someone claiming a product is broken before actually downloading it! |
Post by Matski007 // Jul 27, 2008, 1:17am
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Matski007
Total Posts: 539
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hmmm, seemed pretty obvious to me that the future of caligari was secured. As long as Virtual Earth keeps going, so will truespace. Truespace is suposed to be the main way of modelling for it, it being now Microsoft's proprietary modelling application for virtual earth.
I think its in their best interests to keep updating truepace especially upto version 8 whereby the old modeler side would be removed, thus having a fully competent modelling package.
I doubt there is much to worry about, and I still think that all future versions are quite likely to be free too, Especially if they intend to rival Google Sketchup and Google Earth.
Also I must note that virtual Earth is better than google earth lol |
Post by cline.michael // Jul 27, 2008, 2:12am
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cline.michael
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All of the information on the future of the product mentioned here are good guesses, but it should come from an official communication from Caligari. Is Caligari working on Ts 8.0? If not, then when? What about customers who are completely unconcerned with collaboration or the "web".
I have used ts7.5 extensively for a year or so now, and have spent days on end trying to put together a good workflow. With the current featureset i am at a roadblock with this software. I have downloaded TS7.6 but none of the enhancements address my issues.
By large scene i don't mean speed of rendering or # of triangles, etc. I mean the software cannot handle management of large city-sized scenes, with details at the street level. Its very good at single object modeling or simple scenes. But try navigating through a mile of objects. In workspace i have the feeling the default "spotlight" is intented to say "Stay right here, don't go any further" The grid tells me the same thing. |
Post by Matski007 // Jul 27, 2008, 2:36am
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Matski007
Total Posts: 539
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I mean the software cannot handle management of large city-sized scenes, with details at the street level. Its very good at single object modeling or simple scenes. But try navigating through a mile of objects. In workspace i have the feeling the default "spotlight" is intented to say "Stay right here, don't go any further" The grid tells me the same thing.
Dont you think your expecting too much? truespace is able to handle far more polygons that pretty much any other software (using the realtime shaded view). Being familiar with other packages such as maya, I can tell you that the level of detail you are talking about would be very hard to achieve.
Have you simply tried using wireframe instead? It should be a lot less processor hungry. Also you should use layers or hide things until they require rendering, this is common practice in other packages |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 27, 2008, 2:46am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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All of the information on the future of the product mentioned here is heresy and unreliable until it comes from an official communication from Caligari. Is Caligari working on Ts 8.0? If not, then when? What about customers who are completely unconcerned with collaboration or the "web".
I have used ts7.5 extensively for a year or so now, and have spent days on end trying to put together a good workflow. With the current featureset i am at a roadblock with this software. I have downloaded TS7.6 but none of the enhancements address my issues.
By large scene i don't mean speed of rendering or # of triangles, etc. I mean the software cannot handle management of large city-sized scenes, with details at the street level. Its very good at single object modeling or simple scenes. But try navigating through a mile of objects. In workspace i have the feeling the default "spotlight" is intented to say "Stay right here, don't go any further" The grid tells me the same thing.
I have similar interests to you... it is one of the things that has constantly frustrated me with TS. There is work that has been done with TS7.51 that has a large number of polys/texture maps and such, but they are just single scenes, take a look at the work being done by Marcel, one of the beta testers. My scenes tended to get all messed up and very cumbersome in TS7.51, it is one of the reason I always used other software to do anything I was interested in.
I have yet to do anything in TS7.6 though, I am still trying to find my way around in the program and figure where I placed all of my assets (oh boy I pray they have not been deleted, my backup system with the originals is down right now :( ).
The best thing you can do is post your requests here on the forums to let Caligari know what you need TS to do. there are people here on the forums that beta test for Caligari who will politely yet persistently keep mentioning these features to Caligari during the beta testing process, which sometimes get pushed into the feature list (no guarantees though :D)...
Keep the faith.
Rich |
Post by RichLevy // Jul 27, 2008, 2:51am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Dont you think your expecting too much? truespace is able to handle far more polygons that pretty much any other software (using the realtime shaded view). Being familiar with other packages such as maya, I can tell you that the level of detail you are talking about would be very hard to achieve.
Have you simply tried using wireframe instead? It should be a lot less processor hungry. Also you should use layers or hide things until they require rendering, this is common practice in other packages
Yes and no, one of the problems I had with TS7.51 was the size of textures on your objects. Yes we need to allow for some level of detail when we are animating, it is a resource hog to expect a whole fully detailed city to animate or be able to move around it in realtime.... but if you can not use terxtures larger than 2Kx2K on many different object (which would humble TS7.51 quickly) you have a problem.
Rich |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 27, 2008, 3:01am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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All of the information on the future of the product mentioned here are good guesses, but it should come from an official communication from Caligari. Is Caligari working on Ts 8.0? If not, then when? What about customers who are completely unconcerned with collaboration or the "web".
I have used ts7.5 extensively for a year or so now, and have spent days on end trying to put together a good workflow. With the current featureset i am at a roadblock with this software. I have downloaded TS7.6 but none of the enhancements address my issues.
By large scene i don't mean speed of rendering or # of triangles, etc. I mean the software cannot handle management of large city-sized scenes, with details at the street level. Its very good at single object modeling or simple scenes. But try navigating through a mile of objects. In workspace i have the feeling the default "spotlight" is intented to say "Stay right here, don't go any further" The grid tells me the same thing.
You mean like this?
Immersive Imagery with detailed city models in 3D.
They call it Virtual Earth, the partner to trueSpace in Microsoft's consortium. |
Post by cline.michael // Jul 27, 2008, 3:08am
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cline.michael
Total Posts: 4
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I think the features that go into large-scene management are not overly complex, but perhaps they have just been overlooked in Ts.
Layers is a definite for large-scene management. It is a great feature on the modeler side, but not yet available for Workspace side.
Also replication is another key utility, which potentially can be scripted in workspace. (see the flocking scripts from the forums)
Bounding box display (for replication and per object sets) is also another requirement to display and place many objects at large distances.
But the main issue I have is navigation...precision, speed control. These are difficult on large or small scale. The same goes for object manipulation on small objects, or objects placed far away from the center. From what i understand there is potential to build your own nav/object edit widgets, but to me this something that is very basic and should be included. |
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