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Is this the end of TS ??
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Is this the end of TS ?? // Roundtable
Post by wireframe // Jul 27, 2008, 3:20am
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wireframe
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My XSI locks up every night.
I own and use XSI 6.5 and I don't have any problem with stability ... Please don't compare TS with XSI, I like TS but it is very very far from XSI capacities ...
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I come back to my post, I saw nobody talking about caligari/micro$oft politics to offer more for their client to compare with those who have all for free.
Hope it is a preparation to a really final TS (8.0) with only workspace. Sorry to say that but for me TS is still not a finished product.
Phil |
Post by Ambrose // Jul 27, 2008, 3:30am
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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off course it's not finnished.
The whole Ts7xxx thing is a transfer of code to the new plattform new Ts8.
Can't belive people haven't got this yet...
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by frootee // Jul 27, 2008, 4:09am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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If the core, the main product is free, how much can a 3rd part developer ask for a plugin or a designer for a model? Probably independent developers will disappear.
If it is free, what can a user expect as support or guarantee?
May a professional studio go to tS, motivated by its superb features, if no company can survive if sells their products for none? Will Caligari remain in the market? Will tS, as we know and love, survive?
Will tS to be a new kind of FoxPro?
I don't think tS users will grow as much.
I have some doubts.
Is 7.6 free because version 8 is entirely different and uncompatible with previous versions? From my own experience, MS forces me to go to Vista if buying a new PC; everyday I'm pushed to upgrade Media Player; as a programmer, forced to use VC 2005 (and now 2008), which forces me to use .net and CLI/CLR, and so on. Unfortunately I don't see tS as in the past.
As per my MS experience, I expect in the next tS version, when we save a scene, cob files will be incompatible with previous one, it will require .net 4, which runs only in Vista SP5, which requires Internet Explorer 15, which doesn't support PDF and Flash, scripting will be C#plusplus (a new proprietary language), and so on. Hope this ugly scenario is only in my sad mind.
Jose
Hi Jose.
7.6 is free of course. There have been No independent developers for the 7.xx series simply because the SDK was not yet released. The SDK will be released, and independent developers will charge what they feel is reasonable for their product. But I suspect prices will be quite reasonable, say, $5 - $50? That kind of price range. Of course for more money it better be worth it right? Makes sense.
Support and guarantee is the same as it has been; I believe Caligari posted about that in the past few days here somewhere. I'll try to find the post.
Yes Caligari will remain in the market. Yes it will survive. Truespace now has very stable funding courtesy of Microsoft.
Truespace: a new kind of FoxPro: What do you mean? I do not understand; can you please clarify? Thanks :)
truespace user growth: Well, I'm on the fence with this one. The interface is different from other apps apparently, which is a big issue with newcomers and seasoned 3D users. I personally like it but then it's what I've used the most. I'd like to see the ts user base grow; it will just take time. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
ts 7.6 is Not free because 8.0 is totally different, thus causing all sorts of compatibility issues with previous versions of objects, scenes, scripts, etc. 8.0 does not yet exist. 7.6/7.51/7.0 are totally different from 6.6 and older, since the 7.0 core is a Total Rewrite of the base application. 8.0 will Build upon 7.6, not make all efforts with 7.6 rendered useless.
For SDK and plugin development, yes, VS2005 / 2008 will be required. But, IMHO, it's better than using Visual Studio 6, or 5. How about using Windows 3.1? Are other software developers unhappy about using newer, improved technology?
Caligari did not have to budge on their goals and plans for truespace in this merger. That is mentioned in the Captain's blog I believe. Rather, Microsoft's vision is larger of course, but I don't see them changing everything in truespace just because they feel like it. :)
Enjoy truespace 7.6. Please report bugs. Hammer it big time, so we can get the bugs resolved for a forthcoming patch.
thanks,
Froo |
Post by frootee // Jul 27, 2008, 4:16am
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frootee
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All of the information on the future of the product mentioned here are good guesses, but it should come from an official communication from Caligari. Is Caligari working on Ts 8.0? If not, then when? What about customers who are completely unconcerned with collaboration or the "web".
Hi Michael. I doubt Caligari is 'developing' 8.0 AFAIK yet. Why? Because they have been working on 7.6. Working on 8.0 before finishing 7.6 is kind of like putting the cart before the horse.
8.0 will be developed. If you have features you want added *Now is the Time* to please add them in the Feature suggestions forum.
Thanks,
froo |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 27, 2008, 5:48am
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W!ZARD
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I think the features that go into large-scene management are not overly complex, but perhaps they have just been overlooked in Ts.
Layers is a definite for large-scene management. It is a great feature on the modeler side, but not yet available for Workspace side.
Also replication is another key utility, which potentially can be scripted in workspace. (see the flocking scripts from the forums)
Bounding box display (for replication and per object sets) is also another requirement to display and place many objects at large distances.
But the main issue I have is navigation...precision, speed control. These are difficult on large or small scale. The same goes for object manipulation on small objects, or objects placed far away from the center. From what i understand there is potential to build your own nav/object edit widgets, but to me this something that is very basic and should be included.
If you are having problems with navigation it may be related to your hardware - tS 7.x 's real-time display depends on the DX9 shading capabilities of your graphics card - I have a reasonably good midrange card and have non issues whatsover with navigation or big scenes.
I would like to see some effective instancing for trueSpace along the lines of Vues ecosystems so obviously there is always improvements to be made.
I too would like to see layers in workspace eventually - but there current absense just means you must use different strategies to acheive you goals.
Things to chaeck that may address your navigation problems - your graphics card and it's onboard memory and also important is how you optimise your scene hierarchies. For large scenes and very complex models you should ensure your hierarchies are shallow rather than deep.
There are too many people reporting excellent results from trueSpace for your problems to be trueSpace related - check the other possible causes of navigation problems. People here will do what they can to help. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 27, 2008, 5:50am
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W!ZARD
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off course it's not finnished.
The whole Ts7xxx thing is a transfer of code to the new plattform new Ts8.
Can't believe people haven't got this yet...
SeYa/Ambrose...
It's human nature Ambrose - people see what they want to see rather than what is actually there - we all do it to some degree or other!!:D |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 27, 2008, 5:53am
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W!ZARD
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I own and use XSI 6.5 and I don't have any problem with stability ... Please don't compare TS with XSI, I like TS but it is very very far from XSI capacities ...
Phil
Um... why not? I mean people compare things - that's what people do. I want to buy a new care I'll compare the reletive merits of everything from a Prius to a Hummer or a Lexus. You have to compare a hammer to a screwdriver so you select the tool that fits the job best.
What's XSI like for real time collaboration? |
Post by Daaark // Jul 27, 2008, 6:08am
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Daaark
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I'm not sure what all these conspiracy theories are for. Releasing truespace for free works out well with the current XNA plans. Us users needed a good, affordable editor to use.
They were linking people to XSI mod tool, which was free, but not for commercial use. That clashes heavily with their plans to allow us to sell our games in the XBOX Live Arcade come next fall.
So, trueSpace to the rescue. Now all us indy and hobbyest game programmers have a realistic 3d editor option. I have a bunch of smaller cheap programs that focus on one aspect, like animation or modeling, and don't work very well together, or have only basic functionality.
I imagine that in a few years, TS might look really different, and be a standard editor for XNA gamestudio (http://creators.xna.com), possibly even shipping as part of the SDK. It was a lot easier to buy an established one than to start a new one from scratch.
MS didn't buy trueSpace so they could have them work on a new version only yo retire it. There are a few monkeys in a room right now compiling up an alpha version of tS 8. |
Post by TomG // Jul 27, 2008, 7:50am
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TomG
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It is (and has been, this is not new) policy not to discuss future plans / tools etc. The reasons why have been mentioned before, and in summary people get unhappy - if you dont state you have such-and-such in plan, they are unhappy; if you do say it, then it has to be pulled for whatever reason, they are unhappy; if release dates change, they are unhappy.
Far better not to discuss things until they are set in stone. This is why the move to the free tS7.6 was not discussed until it was released - even free, some people will be unhappy.
This policy will continue, you can keep checking the Captain's Blog where the latest information we can release will be released.
Meantime, you have a full, commercially useable application at no charge. Whatever happens in its future, a lot of people have a lot of power in their hands now who could never ever have afforded anything like it before. For now, I am going to be looking at that, and not worrying about what might or might not happen in the future :) I am going to focus on the now.
The reasons for it being free are in the letter from Roman - Microsoft wants to put the capability to make 3D into the hands of as many people as possible, and that tool should let them make any kind of 3D they like and not be limited to just one arena - so if you want to make Virtual Earth content, or content for XNA games, or "traditional" images and animations, you have that capability all in one tool. In fact, why not leverage that and develop your content once, then distribute it to multiple channels - have your client's house in video pre-rendered walk-through, have it as a scene they can walk through in real-time, and have it on Virtual Earth so they can check the location, all without having to use 3 different applications to do the job.
No software is ever "finished" there is always growth, progress and change, so of course tS7.6 is not "finished". Every software release is just snap shot along the history of its development.
As for plugin developers, well think of it this way - people didn't have to spend $600 on buying the software, so they can spend that $600 on plugins now. I think we will see a lot MORE plugin development with this release, not less, since the target market will be growing exponentially.
I think there will be support for plugins ranging in price from $0 to $500, no reason why not. Sure, some people have zero budget for 3D software and that will be why they are using tS. But others will have big budgets and will be using tS for the tools it adds to their toolset, like importing from other formats and exporting to Virtual Earth, like easy character rigging, like real-time rendering to produce things in a 100th of the time, like real-time scenes for clients to walk through. For those people, $200 or $400 for a plugin will be nothing compared to how much revenue they can get back from this functionality, and paying that to add to what tS provides for free will be fine for them.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by aidanodr // Jul 27, 2008, 9:35am
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aidanodr
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Hi Thomas, Lads,
Over at the thread titled "tS 7.6 is now FREE!!":
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=72340&postcount=138
I chimed up about the free TS 7.6 thing in a rather negative way - I was actually away on hols and checking in at the time via BBand in the hotel and my laptop. I had not read any mails and only found out via CGTALK. At the time I was taken aback without much appraisal of the situation.
Thanks to all who replied to my "rant". Having thought about it all - making TS free and having paid for it all in the past is not an issue, it may turn out to be good, it may turn out to be bad. I suppose the thing that remains in my thoughts is What direction TS will now take?
A. a content creator for Virtual Earth and the like
B. a sketchup type scenario - Truespace FREE and Truespace PRO
I personally reckon a bit of both. A TS Pro may appear once the amount of "free downloads" is properly looked at and the new market created by this announcement is appraised.
Whatever direction - it is a new journey and to us users - an unknown one for now. Best of luck to all those working at the MS/TS mothership.
Cheers
Aidan |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 27, 2008, 9:51am
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Jack Edwards
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No worries Aidan, I think the move took a lot of us by surprise myself included. :o We'll just have to watch and see where the ship sails from here.
The cool thing is that with the plugin sdk we all get a say in the direction of that ride. ;) |
Post by wireframe // Jul 27, 2008, 10:44am
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wireframe
Total Posts: 62
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No software is ever "finished" there is always growth, progress and change, so of course tS7.6 is not "finished". Every software release is just snap shot along the history of its development.
HTH!
Tom
I agree with you Tom a software is a perpetual evolution of the last product, but in this case there is a big issue between "model" and "workspace". This is like a new car, the new model is more powerfull and have much more gadget inside but still have the same problem of fiability.
TS has a big potential...
Waiting to see future of it with micro$oft.
Phil |
Post by jhowell // Jul 27, 2008, 12:02pm
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jhowell
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Hi Phil, Iam definately not comparing. Just stating a fact. I have used XSI for 4 years now (gone through many of the digitaltutors.com tutorials), so I do know what Iam doing. I love it. But it does lock up on me frequently. As well as Truespace does. Maybe its my video card or computer or bugs?. But I work around all of that. Of course XSI is a very professional application, but dont underestimate what Truespace can do.:banana:
I own and use XSI 6.5 and I don't have any problem with stability ... Please don't compare TS with XSI, I like TS but it is very very far from XSI capacities ...
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I come back to my post, I saw nobody talking about caligari/micro$oft politics to offer more for their client to compare with those who have all for free.
Hope it is a preparation to a really final TS (8.0) with only workspace. Sorry to say that but for me TS is still not a finished product.
Phil |
Post by aidanodr // Jul 27, 2008, 2:36pm
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aidanodr
Total Posts: 90
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As a slight aside - just spotted this for snail mail:
Caligari Corporation
1 Microsoft Way
Redmond
WA 98052.
http://www.caligari.com/Help/ContactUs/defaultnew.asp?Cate=About&SubCate=Contact
NO. 1 - mmm who's living in No. 2?? OR Will be :)
Aidan |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 27, 2008, 3:51pm
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Jack Edwards
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Ah but the key question is does Roman have a corner office. :p |
Post by frootee // Jul 27, 2008, 4:41pm
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Hi J. Re: XSI and truespace lockups:
what are your system specs, especially your video card and drivers? NVidia? ATI? |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 27, 2008, 4:46pm
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jamesmc
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Interesting topic but... |
Post by joseparrot // Jul 28, 2008, 4:04am
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Hi Jose.
There have been No independent developers for the 7.xx series simply because the SDK was not yet released.
...
Yes Caligari will remain in the market. Yes it will survive. Truespace now has very stable funding courtesy of Microsoft.
...
Truespace: a new kind of FoxPro: What do you mean? I do not understand; can you please clarify? Thanks :)
...
For SDK and plugin development, yes, VS2005 / 2008 will be required. But, IMHO, it's better than using Visual Studio 6, or 5. How about using Windows 3.1? Are other software developers unhappy about using newer, improved technology?
Caligari did not have to budge on their goals and plans for truespace in this merger. That is mentioned in the Captain's blog I believe.
...
Froo
Hi, frootee,
Thanks for your clear points. I appreciate also your :) polite discussion.
First of all, a brief introduction: I'm a tS user from the very first PC version, trueSpace/SE. I have still my floppies and the manual as a collection item (no ebay them!) and all the following ones. So, I wait tS to be better and better, and I am confident it will be!
What happens is that I was in doubt :confused: about the sudden promotion!
How can a company survive without revenue? As said in this forum, there is MS around. And that is exactly my point: Microsoft. I suspect tS engine or Roman brilliant ideas would be addressed to be part of another MS product or service, and tS as a modeling and animation tool rest abandoned or with less focus. :mad:
That's why I reffer to FoxPro, a non growthing product after acquired by MS (except to force using new proprietary stuff). Will next tS versions support Flash, MOV and other non MS formats? Your point on "Caligari did not have to budge on their goals and plans" suggests that the mistery will remanis until the veil is discovered...:confused:
About SDK, yes, I agree... this is a STRONG reason for non existing plugins.:)
As I am really a happy tS user, a fan of Roman, I am still confident in good things coming from :D Roman. Unfortunately the same expectation I don't have from MS.
Best regards,
Jose |
Post by joseparrot // Jul 28, 2008, 4:21am
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joseparrot
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It is (and has been, this is not new) policy not to discuss future plans / tools etc.
...
Far better not to discuss things until they are set in stone. This is why the move to the free tS7.6 was not discussed until it was released - even free, some people will be unhappy.
Tom
Hi, Thomas,
Well post.
In my case, I'm not unhappy, but insecure instead.
The merge of two companies, when one of them is a huge one, makes us to not expect much DNA of the smaller one in the resulting merged company. My hope is that Roman is so brilliant that his mark would be impressed there.
Jose |
Post by frootee // Jul 28, 2008, 4:35am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Hi Jose. Anytime! :D
A lot of folks were shocked; heck I'd say pretty much everyone outside of Caligari were majorly surprised by the announcement. Roman's note is from his blog entry discussing the merger. It means, truespace is not going to turn into an exclusively Vitrual Earth product. Why toss out or stop development of any functionality in truespace? The more functionality available, the more customers there will be, and who will remain.
By continuing development of truespace, and not focusing exclusively on VE integration, Microsoft actually gets more 'eyeballs' focused on its technology. Put it this way: when I go to a grocery store, I want to buy milk. But if there is a free sample of some pizza, heck yeah I'll try it. And I may end up buying it. So, someone not necessarily interested in VE who wants to work with IK animation gets truespace for free, and also gets VE capability. So even though they may not initially be interested in VE development, they may Get interested in VE development, because it is there, and they can play with it. They may like it so much that they contribute.
But if development on other areas of truespace stops, then the opposite happens. Lots of truespace users will just bail. Not a good marketing plan at all.
Also, if you want specific features added to future versions of truespace (i.e. 8.0), Now is the time to add them to the Feature suggestions forum and/or plugin requests forum.
Take it easy!
Froo |
Post by TomG // Jul 28, 2008, 4:58am
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TomG
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In terms of "How can a company survive without revenue?" well remember Caligari is now a wholly owned subsidiary, in terms of revenue it belongs to Microsoft and Microsoft does make a reasonable amount of revenue here and there ;)
Think of it this way too - Virtual Earth itself is a pretty complex and amazing product. Not only that but all those 3D modeled cities, and even the satellite photos and maps, all took a lot of time to make, prepare, get ready for use in Virtual Earth and similar. That's a LOT of money when you are talking about the man hours involved.
Yet you can have access to all that for free.
trueSpace is now the same way, and it's no more something to be alarmed about than Virtual Earth itself being free. Same thing, here is software and content that takes time and money to create, just as VE itself does, yet you can have it for free. No-one misinterprets that as meaning bad things for Virtual Earth, and it shouldn't be read as meaning bad things for trueSpace either :)
Those who are learning trueSpace and including it in their toolset will find it a great benefit to them now and in future too.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by KeithC // Jul 28, 2008, 5:15am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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I'd just like to pop in my 2 cents here.
As Tom (and others, I believe) indicated; even if TS 8 is a paid version, or TrueSpace is cancelled (maybe in an alternate reality ;))...everyone still has access to a fully-functional and free program, soon to come with the SDK (which will only open up more opportunities for both devs and users).
With this knowledge, TrueSpace can never die. From my standpoint (Game Dev), this is an excellent opportunity for numerous game artists/developers to boost their pipeline with an extremely relevant program (more so when plugins are developed to allow transition into such engines as Torque and GameStudio, etc.). Game Artists, such as myself, can now get into the market of asset development without spending a dime:
__________________________________________________ ________________________
- TrueSpace 7.6 (Modeler, Animator, UV Mapper, Exporter)
- GIMP/Paint.net (2D Graphics and texturing programs, comparable to Photoshop)
- Free versions of Game Engines, such as FPSCreator....to showcase your work and convert your assets for sale in engine specific formats.
- Free webspace (even with ads polluting your site, it's still a free start), with Paypal will net you the cash you need to progress; thereby making your hobby/portfolio self-sustaining (financially)....even possibly profitable. Don't forget all the free forum software out there as well.
- Lets not forget all the free tutorials and wealth of knowledge on these (and other) forums!
__________________________________________________ _______________________
Some people here seem to view the horizon at Caligari as dark and cold.....perhaps they
should turn around and see the light shining through the opposite horizon. ;)
Once everyone gets past the initial (and pleasant) shock of TS being a Free program, we can all get down to the business of developing and growing this community and TrueSpace as a whole. :)
-Keith |
Post by joseparrot // Jul 28, 2008, 7:56am
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joseparrot
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Hi, Keith,
Despite some uncertainty, it is very comfortable to see other users and contributors so confident when looking at the tS horizons.
About tS 7.6 for free, I remember of version 3.2 for free for a long time, but at same time of paid versions 4 and 5. Today it's different, 7.6 is the last version/release.
I'd like to share your optimism, during this time, when we don't know if it is coming version 8, tS Express and tS Pro, or whatever...
But yours and Tom's arguments are a positive way of waiting for the company's decisions. I'm trying to keep pace with you...
Jose |
Post by Délé // Jul 28, 2008, 9:11am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I think when people talk about tools in tS disappearing, one important thing is being forgotten...Shared Spaces. Caligari has been touting 3d shared spaces for some time now. Although we haven't been informed about how shared spaces fit into the big scheme of things, with all of the development that went into the technology, there must be a foreseeable use.
So to create good interactive shared spaces we will need good modeling tools, UV mapping tools, scripting support, animation tools, DX tools (including shaders and HLSL support). Roman also mentioned in his blog that they were working on fully articulated avatars. In that case a solid character animation system is needed. Vray would also come in very handy if it had the ability to bake shadows. We could then create much more realistic online scenes.
So it seems to me that even if the focus is on VE export, shared spaces, and XNA (gaming community), we will still get most if not all of the tools that we're looking for. On top of that, with the influx of users, there will likely now be 3rd party developers that make plug-ins for the things that Caligari doesn't get around to implementing.
I just can't help but see most, if not all of the tools in tS continuing to grow and expand. There are uses for them in the areas that Caligari has already shown they are pursuing. It seems logical to me that the future of tS is much brighter, not darker. |
Post by splinters // Jul 28, 2008, 9:33am
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splinters
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Today it's different, 7.6 is the last version/release.
Now maybe I missed some big announcement, in which case can somebody please point me in the direction of the mail or thread from Caligari that says this is the last version or release??
There is already talk of tS7.61 as well as hints at tS8.0 so please, please stop the negativity about this unless you can show me such a statement! |
Post by CdeB // Jul 28, 2008, 9:37am
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CdeB
Total Posts: 160
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Splínters..
Joseparrot can correct me if I am wrong but what I think he means by:
Originally Posted by joseparrot
Today it's different, 7.6 is the last version/release.
Is that usually the free version is not the last (ie latest version) but one of the earlier ones...:) |
Post by RAYMAN // Jul 28, 2008, 9:55am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Just one question folks !
How many of the tools that we know in 3d have vanished ?
None of the big ones !
Would look pretty od for Microsoft that Truespace would be
the only big one !
something a company as big as Microsoft could not afford
reputationwise !
What it will look like in 2-3 years depends mainly on us
the community !
Now we have so many free tools and render engines !
You can do pro work with all free soft !
Just crossposting with Jack in the other thread about a new
super importer and exporter .....
How many here know that the Google Earth file is actually a
zipped Collada file ?!!
With Jacks Collada importer we can even use the free Sketchup !
The possibilities are quadrupling rather then slowing down !:)
Peter |
Post by KeithC // Jul 29, 2008, 5:32am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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Hi Joseparrot,
Although I have questioned the way some things have happened in the past, I only see good things for the future now. Although there may "hiccups" in the future, as long as we all look ahead and help to iron out the wrinkles now and then...I can only see the way ahead as bright both for Caligari and the users of TrueSpace. ;)
-Keith |
Post by Steinie // Jul 29, 2008, 5:49am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Roman said in the past that he likes to "under promise and over deliver."
I think he did that don't you?
He also said the "future" looks bright. (as well as Caligari staff)
That doesn't sound like doom and gloom.
It is amazing to me how fast the tables can be turned. Think how large the user base has just increased for
people wanting to sell plug ins, tutorials, skills etc for trueSpace. Dribble just got a shock wave I'm sure, trueBones is smiling,
and I hear whispers everywhere of new projects coming. Everything has accelerated. |
Post by mrbones // Jul 29, 2008, 11:52am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Yup my Irish bones are smiling and I wear shades because the futures too bright.
THanks again and CHeers
Joe
Roman said in the past that he likes to "under promise and over deliver."
I think he did that don't you?
He also said the "future" looks bright. (as well as Caligari staff)
That doesn't sound like doom and gloom.
It is amazing to me how fast the tables can be turned. Think how large the user base has just increased for
people wanting to sell plug ins, tutorials, skills etc for trueSpace. Dribble just got a shock wave I'm sure, trueBones is smiling,
and I hear whispers everywhere of new projects coming. Everything has accelerated. |
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