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An old user returns with some questions.
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
An old user returns with some questions. // Roundtable
Post by achrystie // Aug 7, 2008, 3:52am
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achrystie
Total Posts: 6
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Truespace was the first "non cad" 3D application I ever purchased or used.
I started with 4.3 and upgraded through 6.5. In the end I left the program because:
a) The workflow was, in my opinion, not very efficient. I came to the impression that TS suffered from "icon overload" and it was difficult to use the program as a result.
b) I got tired of continuously being asked to purchase upgrades, that included bug fixes, that should have been released for free, and the continuous cost of upgrading "plugins" as well, on top of the base product, soured my opinion a bit.
c) The "silence" after 6.5 was, well, extensive and other programs charged forward on SDS modeling tools while TS stayed pretty stagnant.
d) Documentation of the product was lackluster at best. When I started with 4.3 it was decent, and, better yet, there were two books out on the program. With the upgrades, the documentation seemed to falter and no new books were published.
That said, I like a lot of the new "potential" for this application, and, at the very least, I'm thinking this is a great FREE way to export some game models. However, I have a few questions that hopefully someone can clarify:
1) The documentation of many things is still a bit "light". The free tutorials are a help, but, specifically, is there a better reference document for the scripting/LE capabilities and features? There is little to nothing in the manual, and the tutorials are very "dedicated" to a specific task, rather than a reference to all of what is available, what the syntax is, etc.
2) Is there an SDK available? It says it's a feature, then a forum post said "forthcoming", and I couldn't find a download link anywhere, nor any documents on it.
3) Is there some timeline on when/if this product will again become "one integrated app", rather than a new app with an old app bolted onto it? Any projections on feature additions? The three big ones I see lacking at this point are 1) particles integrated into workspace, 2) baking of cloth animation, 3) dynamics on hair.
4) Is there some projection on whether or not this will continue to be a "free" application and if not, when/what will spur it to become a paid application again? Is there any thought to open sourcing the application?
5) I've figured out how to move buttons and a lot of the interface customization, colors, etc, but I'm unclear if there are certain things that can be done, such as, can you hide the "modification and move bars" for toolbars, once you establish where you want them to go? Are there additional customizations that can be done with scripting or modifying XML files, and is there any documentation on this? Also, why does it take so long to switch between a single view, and the "four view" modes. It's instant on most applications, this is more like a "loading" process. Is there a way around this where I can get another window with another view, without having to make that panel change? (EDIT: I figured this one out, CTRL+DRAG just like the toolbars, for some reason this didn't seem to work last night :( Is there a way to tear off the numerical editor and the iconic "library" view to put it on another screen? Right now it's docked to the right inside a shelf, and I can close the shelf, but I couldn't find how you'd "undock" these from the shelf. I admittedly haven't read every section of the manual in detail or watched every video, but from a first pass/search, I couldn't find any info on this.)
Lastly, I have some ideas that I'm wondering if there has been any work on/thought put into.
Will this get heavily integrated with C# and XNA at some point? Has there been any thought about making the program capable of compiling an executable of the workspace to make a single standalone application? (like blender and virtools can, etc.)? |
Post by achrystie // Aug 7, 2008, 3:57am
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achrystie
Total Posts: 6
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Two more things.
Multithreading support for the whole app, is that available?
Is there a 64 bit version in the works? |
Post by TomG // Aug 7, 2008, 5:00am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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It's policy not to talk about future plans (reasons why have been discussed before, in summary it avoids disappointment on things not announced that do show up, and disappointment in things announced that don't make it in). So some questions I can't answer.
An SDK is coming, within the next 3 or 4 weeks. See several current forum threads on that, and what version of Visual Studio it will require to use without modification (though like any SDK it can be modified to work with other languages etc).
Learning scripting through specific examples is good, the SDK documentation will apply to much of it, and there is a "developer's guide" that covers a lot. There's also a weekly live meeting of scriptors discussing tips, techniques etc, as well as a dedicated forum section. So lots of learning resources!
A player version (basically the real-time engine) did exist before, in the form of truePlay, this will likely exist again - it can load scenes from HD or enter shared spaces online. Hyperlinks can be made to run the app and load a particular scene / join a particular room, covering the concept of an executable app (just that the customer won't need to keep redownloading it for each scene, they download the app once, then the scenes only later on).
News on when / if truePlay will be released updated for tS7.6 will be released as soon as details are available.
Documentation is improved, we have a lot of videos now. The manual remains a manual, ie like a stereo manual, tells you what each knob and switch does, but doesn't have tutorials etc. Those are worked on separately. We're doing things like the bitesize videos, small samples dealing with specific questions. And the live meetings allow for some good training and feedback too. We'll be looking into more courses in future too, and we'll see what happens there.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 7, 2008, 5:09am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Hi Achrystie
I don't speak here for anyone but myself, but no harm to ya, if I came to your house and on my first visit started telling you how pants it was last time I was here, how I'm only here cos it's got the free potential to maybe export stuff, then want to instantly know the commercial plan of the company, point out where this FREE gift you have just been given has holes and want em sorting. And before even knowing your way around the interface want the SDK...
Don't you think this first encounter may not give you the warm and welcoming response that the forum members normally offer?
I would politely point out this may not be a very rewarding approach....
NB I am just a relative noob to TS so speak only for myself.
Best Wishes
Ik |
Post by seavu // Aug 7, 2008, 5:29am
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seavu
Total Posts: 46
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With Microsoft as the new owner I doubt it will ever be open-source but an SDK is a very, very good thing. I also doubt they will start charging for it since putting quality tools in the hands of gamers/hobbyists/small companies just adds value to their empire (ie Windows being the OS of gamers). Not to mention Virtual Earth. It's not so much what tS is today as what it will be in a year. |
Post by achrystie // Aug 7, 2008, 6:09am
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achrystie
Total Posts: 6
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Hi Achrystie
I don't speak here for anyone but myself, but no harm to ya, if I came to your house and on my first visit started telling you how pants it was last time I was here, how I'm only here cos it's got the free potential to maybe export stuff, then want to instantly know the commercial plan of the company, point out where this FREE gift you have just been given has holes and want em sorting. And before even knowing your way around the interface want the SDK...
Don't you think this first encounter may not give you the warm and welcoming response that the forum members normally offer?
I would politely point out this may not be a very rewarding approach....
NB I am just a relative noob to TS so speak only for myself.
Best Wishes
Ik
Well, FREE or not, this is still a commercial program and a company I've purchased from in the past. It may be my first posts on the forum, but certainly not my first visit. I've spent probably upwards of $700 on this program in the past, between the first purchase, upgrades, and plugins, plus purchased two books. So I'm pretty sure that still makes me a "customer". This isn't a "house", it's a company. My house is for my personal use, and you have only the rights I grant you to enter it and critique my paint, as is your house. This "company" has accepted money from me in the past, both Caligari, and Microsoft. If you purchased a product from me at my "house", you'd have every right to critique whatever you like. Not that I had much of a "critique", other than to point out the reasons I stopped buying this product years ago. Perfectly valid points IMO. As far as the current program, I think it's great, very powerful, and, quite frankly, most of that power exists in the scripting and LE, which I've had trouble finding documentation on. I have the manual, saw the reference to "developer's guide" in the section on widget customization, but have yet to find where this "guide" is.
Is it on a separate download somewhere?
As far as not knowing the interface, I don't know the "new" interface, the old interface I'm fairly familiar with. That said, it's the new interface that attracted me to the program. Plus, I'm pretty sure I'm capable of writing code without knowing a single thing about the interface itself. That is of course if I know "what" code can be written, and of course the point of most of my post. I think the largest strides in this program are in it's customization AND in it's object oriented interface via the LE....so that's what I'm trying to find out about. As far as future updates, it just seemed to me, based on the real time DX view capabilities, the SDK, the LE, the scripting, the physics, and the activities...going the .exe compile route would be a good fit.
As far as my question about going back to a paid program, just curiosity really. Having played around a bit, assuming that all the old tools and functions get updated and migrated to the "new system", I'd be happy to pay a reasonable price for the program again if I start consistently using it.
My comment about "export" was really just to state that, I think this program has a "lot" of potential, but at "minimum" it has some good export functions.
Thanks for the advice. I'll keep it in mind for future posts. :) |
Post by TomG // Aug 7, 2008, 6:20am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I sure didn't mind any of the questions here, nor comments on back how Caligari was, though of course the past in no way reflects the future now there are such big changes!
The issues I can't answer are due to any answers being speculative, which we try and avoid as much as possible. I did speculate a little on some of the issues, eg regarding truePlay, and it should be borne in mind that it is speculation and thoughts, not definite statements of what will happen.
Please send me an email if you are interested in the SDK, I am keeping a list of those who want to know when it is out.
Hopefully the video courses, manual, developer's guide (don't know the dl for that off the top of my head or I'd link it), script meetings, and forum support and community will all help you dive into the wide range of customisation that is possible with tS7.6.
At least now if you don't like this tool, or that part of the interface, you can just go ahead and change it :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Steinie // Aug 7, 2008, 6:20am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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This should keep you busy: Developer's Guide
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=2334&postcount=4 |
Post by achrystie // Aug 7, 2008, 6:33am
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achrystie
Total Posts: 6
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This should keep you busy: Developer's Guide
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=2334&postcount=4
Thanks, I actually tried the first link in that post a while ago, that sends you to the "customer download area", assuming this would me to the latest downloads. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to allow me to login. I had my password "re-sent" to me, just in case I had forgotten it, but I had the password correct in the first place.
I downloaded the link at the bottom of the post, the zip file, this is much more what I was looking for. However, the most recent documents are from 2 years ago. Is there anything that will allow me to tell what has changed in the last 2 years? Have things changed a lot, particularly in the underlying structure, over this 2 year period, or have things just been added on that aren't documented yet?
I very much appreciate the help. :D |
Post by splinters // Aug 7, 2008, 6:36am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Regarding the 'new' UI, can I point out, as I have done on several occasions, that the workspace UI icons are based very closely on those from Model side (which in turn are just a 'refresh' of the 6.6 ones) and many made it over exactly with maybe just a colour change. I also provided a 'transition' layout that I used to call tS6.7. It looks just like model side but uses the new workspace engine. If anyone is daunted by workspace, maybe try that layout to help you migrate. |
Post by achrystie // Aug 7, 2008, 6:40am
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achrystie
Total Posts: 6
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I sure didn't mind any of the questions here, nor comments on back how Caligari was, though of course the past in no way reflects the future now there are such big changes!
Your response was very helpful. :)
The issues I can't answer are due to any answers being speculative, which we try and avoid as much as possible. I did speculate a little on some of the issues, eg regarding truePlay, and it should be borne in mind that it is speculation and thoughts, not definite statements of what will happen.
I understand, I was, as always, just caught up in the ideas that popped into my head as soon as I started playing around with the new version. I certainly appreciate the idea of not over "speculating". :)
Please send me an email if you are interested in the SDK, I am keeping a list of those who want to know when it is out.
I will do so. I'm very much interested in getting an update when this is available. I appreciate the opportunity of being placed on the mailing list.
At least now if you don't like this tool, or that part of the interface, you can just go ahead and change it :)
My thoughts exactly. The "holy grail" of program front end interaction IMO. This is a big reason I've gotten excited about this program again. ;) |
Post by achrystie // Aug 7, 2008, 6:45am
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achrystie
Total Posts: 6
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Regarding the 'new' UI, can I point out, as I have done on several occasions, that the workspace UI icons are based very closely on those from Model side (which in turn are just a 'refresh' of the 6.6 ones) and many made it over exactly with maybe just a colour change. I also provided a 'transition' layout that I used to call tS6.7. It looks just like model side but uses the new workspace engine. If anyone is daunted by workspace, maybe try that layout to help you migrate.
I have definitely noted the similarities. Icons that were very easy for me to infer their function, years ago, are still that way. Others have improved, while others still made me shake my head a bit. :) Such is the difficulty of designing icons. My final "personal" interface changes are probably going to be a hybrid of moved toolbars/buttons with "text" icons for some, and the very nice graphic icons for others. Some things are easy to make an intuitive icon for (point, edge, and face selection comes to mind), others not so much (buttons to open editors and such come to mind)...I think this is where going to text based, and the new option to do so, is a big step in the right direction. |
Post by frootee // Aug 7, 2008, 6:59am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Hi achrystie. Welcome back! :banana:
I seem to recall seeing some of your posts on the forums some years ago.
Regarding scripting and the LE, there are a lot of examples here on the forums. Most of them are concentrated in the Collaboration, Garage, and Scriptorium forums. Fascinating stuff.
I have a powerpoint presentation available at this website on using the LE and scripting. It is a step by step approach to get folks started:
http://truesourceshop.com/agoracart55/agora.cgi?cart_id=1772027.14913&p_id=00015&product=Tutorials&xm=on&ppinc=search2
Dele also has a really good example on getting started with the LE here in the threads. I think it is called, Simple LE Tutorial.
Dele's courses on scripting and the LE are also very useful.
Now, I will say, that in order to make plugins and scripts, you definitely need to have a good handle on how the interface works, the terminology, etc., especially in the LE; how nodes are connected, how to Expand connectors, like Matrix nodes, etc. So you really do need to get a solid understanding of that. It is covered in my presentation, as well as Dele's videos and tutorials.
The SDK, it sounds, like you already found the 'system requirements' info you need but please check the Tech FAQ thread in the Tech forum.
Scripting Meetings are held in the scriptorium in the shared spaces. Please refer to the Collaboration forum, for the posts regarding the scriptor meeting announcements. The posts for this past Tuesday (August 5) contains the most updated information for getting into the space.
Let's see... updated documentation... The SDK, as Tom pointed out, will be released sometime soon. The documentation will be available, along with some good examples. If you know ATL (Active Template Library) programming, you'll be good to go.
Lookin forward to talking script and SDK with you!
Froo |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 7, 2008, 9:42am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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There have been answers to some of the other question that you asked made public:
1.) Roman has indicated that the old 6.6 architecture will be removed in 8.0.
2.) Roman has also said that 8.0 will be available in native 64 bit.
:cool: |
Post by teamonkey // Aug 7, 2008, 5:58pm
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teamonkey
Total Posts: 107
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Hi Achrystie
...if I came to your house and on my first visit started telling you how pants it was last time I was here,
Ik
Pants? I'm not even sure I should ask what this means! lol!!! :-)
Or is it a spelling mistake? :confused: |
Post by TomG // Aug 8, 2008, 3:06am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Not a spelling mistake - it means how rubbish it was :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by aidanodr // Aug 8, 2008, 3:10am
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aidanodr
Total Posts: 90
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PANTS = a term used over this side of the pond - its more or less saying that something is rubbish, crap, not great.
"Hey tea monkey, those shoes you are wearing today are just pants" ( not great )
It is fluid in use and can have loose enough meaning. Not a formal word, more coloqial. I find it more used in the UK than say here in the Rep of Ireland, but hear it regularly on UK TV channels.
Am I their abouts right IK?
Cheers
Aidan |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 8, 2008, 5:03am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Guys you are making me laugh here... yeh Aidan I spent so long in Co.Antrim..Ireland I forgot that it was a common expression there but maybe not so much here in England or further afield. It's like when I arrived here in Sheffield the bus driver called me Love. Back home that would have got ya decked lol (decked as in violenlty assaulted to the point of collapse to ground/deck) Sheffield expression "mardy" took awhile to understand means moody/grumpy."Nesh"... a person is said to be nesh if they feel the cold more than others. Sheffield has so many "made up" words even after 8 years I still hear the odd new one.
LOL Thanks for the translation Tom, I'm impressed come to think of it that you knew what it meant... I doubt it's a frequently used American expression?
Achrystie.. Glad to see you are getting the TS forum help you requested. Apols for going off on one yesterday, bad day.. welcome back. And if you can give me any help in the future feel free lol:p
Pants is such a good word don't ya think lol
Cheers
IK |
Post by TomG // Aug 8, 2008, 5:25am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Ah but I'm not American :) I am in fact Scottish from the NE of Scotland (so if you want to talk about strange words that no-one else knows, I know quite a few, thanks to the Doric being my native tongue). I then lived in the Midlands for 12 years or so in Derby so have acquired lots of those words too. And now live in Texas. Seen some interesting accents in my time, as a result :)
Hello duck, foo ye dein, y'all?
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jamesmc // Aug 8, 2008, 5:36am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Ah but I'm not American :) I am in fact Scottish from the NE of Scotland (so if you want to talk about strange words that no-one else knows, I know quite a few, thanks to the Doric being my native tongue). I then lived in the Midlands for 12 years or so in Derby so have acquired lots of those words too. And now live in Texas. Seen some interesting accents in my time, as a result :)
Hello duck, foo ye dein, y'all?
HTH!
Tom
Tom bundled up his plenishings and inhabits the Lonestar region. |
Post by aidanodr // Aug 8, 2008, 5:39am
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aidanodr
Total Posts: 90
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Hi Guys,
Well I would like to introduce another word to this forum - used here in Cork City, Ireland. The word is Langer, it is now used all over Ireland almost, made popular by a trad group here who released a song called ... Yip ... "the Langer song"
Langer can also be used as a term for something gentlemen have but ladies do not .... mmmm! It is often used in a sentence like " Go on you langer ... you!"
For a good laugh have a look at this site:
http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/index.php?module=Dictionary&func=lettersearch&letterget=L&vid=1
A to Z of Cork Slang - on the L page for reference :)
Remember now Lads - Cork is where Roy Keane comes from ( those of you into Soccer ). Some very funny stuff on peoplesrepublicofcork. Its called this by the way as Cork Colours for Gaelic Football and Hurling is RED. Ill leave the rest to your imagination.
Cheers
Aidan |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 8, 2008, 5:43am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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My mother-in-law is from Glasgow... ouch. Think Billy Connelly and how he describes "her indoors" when she "goes off on one"..
When she gets mad about something she goes off into this completely Scottish ranting language with such a strong Glaswegian accent none of us know what the heck she is saying. Trouble is it's quite funny... but laughing at these moments is tantamount to a kamakazi mission. So the tactic is try not to look at anyone else or we all burst out laughing and then it really hits the fan! It rarely works it's just too funny. On these occasions (usually when we are staying at their house for a visit) We, as in Grandad and ourselves have to have a takeaway, as punishment.. We all look at each other again trying so hard not to laugh, because her cooking would choke a Donkey, and this "punishment" is actually a big treat, especially for poor old Grandad who has munched his way through years of what can only be described as "minging" dinners lol. Takeaway for him is like Christmas! She's the only person I know who can make minced beef taste like rubber pellets in dishwater.
IK |
Post by jamesmc // Aug 8, 2008, 5:43am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Supposed to be some Irish in my blood line, as my ancestors married into a Kelsoe line in Raphoe Parish, County Donegal back in the 1680s. Before that, they were one of the minor Septs in Scotland (Mac Leod Clan??) doing the bidding of whomever was in charge as McClure (supposed Gaelic name for 'son of fist') dunno.
Mac - Lure
Not that it matters as much as the past several hundred years have refined me into an all American mutt. :) |
Post by aidanodr // Aug 8, 2008, 5:49am
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aidanodr
Total Posts: 90
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Well James, IK and Tom,
If ye ever meet a Cork guy, at some point say to him "Go on you Langer", ( "lang" part pronounced like bang ) if he does something stupid. He would be most impressed by your knowledge of Cork slang, but also keep an eye out for a fist if he took it up wrong :)
And James - was up in Donegal Town three weeks ago on a break in the Sligo/Donegal area - Yeats country. Going back up for another week in two weeks time. Great part of the Country. Also You may have heard of a group called Clannad - they are from Donegal. Town I think!
Aidan |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 8, 2008, 6:01am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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James you just gained a relative lol.... Uncle James :p
I was married for years to a Macleod. Very interesting family even now. Theres loads of em.
For instance my ex wife's Uncle, James Macleod, 1 of seven brothers and now in his 90's (if he is still alive I haven't kept in touch), owned a huge deepsea fishing trawler and was the first in Ireland to introduce dragging nets between two boats. He also owned a fishing net factory, but sold it to an international company. Even in his eighties James took his grandkids, of which there are loads, dingy sailing. He would go out with em complete with wetsuit etc. Very superstitious though. Insisted when he stayed that his bed faced a certain compass direction as it was healthier! Everyone of his 6 brothers is or was either a Doctor, lawyer or Dentist.
Ok now we got that out of the way, seeing as how you could be my long lost Uncle lol I'm packing my bags to come visit my Rich Uncle in America. See ya tomorrow.....
IK :D |
Post by teamonkey // Aug 8, 2008, 6:11am
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teamonkey
Total Posts: 107
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Not a spelling mistake - it means how rubbish it was :)
HTH!
Tom
Ah, ok, thanks! :-)
I really wish these Brits would learn to speak English ! ;) |
Post by jamesmc // Aug 8, 2008, 6:15am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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James you just gained a relative lol.... Uncle James :p
I was married for years to a Macleod. Very interesting family even now. Theres loads of em.
For instance my ex wife's Uncle, James Macleod, 1 of seven brothers and now in his 90's (if he is still alive I haven't kept in touch), owned a huge deepsea fishing trawler and was the first in Ireland to introduce dragging nets between two boats. He also owned a fishing net factory, but sold it to an international company. Even in his eighties James took his grandkids, of which there are loads, dingy sailing. He would go out with em complete with wetsuit etc. Very superstitious though. Insisted when he stayed that his bed faced a certain compass direction as it was healthier! Everyone of his 6 brothers is or was either a Doctor, lawyer or Dentist.
Ok now we got that out of the way, seeing as how you could be my long lost Uncle lol I'm packing my bags to come visit my Rich Uncle in America. See ya tomorrow.....
IK :D
Be sure and pack your kit with your own grub and bed roll. We sleep under the stars out here on the prairie. :D |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 8, 2008, 6:15am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Aidan
I am a Piano Tuner by trade. When Clannad, the Nolans, Phil Coulter, or any other big names gigged in the North I was their tuner. I looked after pretty well all the instruments in the major Venues and TV and Radio stations... Did it for years. In fact the last time I was in Cork was the last day of a 3 week tour I did with Phil Coulter. One of the nicest Millionaires you could possibly meet. Only major name I never got to tune for was Elton John, he brought his own tuner. UB40, U2, The Communards, The Chieftans, Elky Brookes, Chris DeBurgh, worked with em all... it was great fun. (Yeh I know all those aren't Irish).
I tuned for "The Grand Opera House" in Belfast as their "resident" tuner for Eight years. Each Show had only 2 posters printed specifically for the outside of the Opera house itself, one to be used beside the main entrance, and one as a spare for emergencies. should the other get damaged. I collected loads of the "Spares" over the years, which are now the only posters for the gigs in existence. With a bit of luck they might be worth something one day.
ik
In the North Langer called Wanger |
Post by teamonkey // Aug 8, 2008, 6:16am
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teamonkey
Total Posts: 107
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She's the only person I know who can make minced beef taste like rubber pellets in dishwater.
IK
I believe that is what the Scots refer to as Crofter's Stew. On 'Monarch of the Glen' they referred to Crofter's Stew as 'Gristle swimming in grease."
Ummm-yummy, tastey goodness! :jumpy: |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 8, 2008, 6:22am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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'Gristle swimming in grease."
I'd rather chew the carpet! Easier to swallow.
IK |
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