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At Rigging last!
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
At Rigging last! // Roundtable
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 23, 2008, 6:37am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Well it's taken for ever but FINALLY I have the best legs in town :D
100% IK driven no need for dynapose just click the handles and pose!
So what have we got
Ik legs
IK toe roll
IK foot roll
IK knee aim
Ik squat
IK waist rotate
IK waist forward/ backwards
To move complete character (twigglett) use up arrow on keyboard to get to object twigglett, then translate as a whole. For walk cycle move the waist as you move forward.
In normal selection mode (no need for dynapose to be activated)
just grab the handles and pose.
If at anytime the leg IK wont give full stride it's usually because too much knee twist has been applied, straighten knee and it should sort.
Also be aware that hip rotation can limit stride length, again straighten a little to gain back stride length.
NB on the odd occasion the foot roll leaves a funky toe roll in place. To straighten the toe go into dynapose activate the full lock at back of lower leg, and repose the toe. Only takes a sec (don't forget to reset the full lock to off!)
The rigging/locks are fairly substantial. Be aware that the position of one IK handle WILL effect the limitations of others.(like a real leg). For example a stride at full stretch won't allow more foot or toe roll, simply becasue like a real leg it can't stretch any further without snapping your knee :p
Attached is zipped scene as a rsc PROJECT file.Unzip and drag from windows into open new scene.
IK |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 23, 2008, 7:34am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Twigglet? He looks armless enough!:D Aren't Twigglets those disgusting tasting but incredibly addictive stick things?
I'll DL your scene and have a look IK. It'll be interesting to see how your methodology differs from mine. I've spent all night making new walk cycles for my Wizard character. Now I've got a system it's not hard at all. |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 23, 2008, 7:50am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Well that's kind of cool. Do you particularly want to avoid FK and Dynapose for some reason?
Interesting screen layout you have too. What's the reason behind having all those icons down the left hand side? They're all the same tools you find in the default tool bar only there they are neatly tucked out of the way until you need them.
I'm not being critical - just curious. You may well know something I don't!! :D |
Post by 3dfrog // Aug 23, 2008, 7:55am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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Looks good IK. Have you tried animating it yet. My rig is getting serious stretchy bone bug. I hope that is fixed soon :( |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 23, 2008, 5:50pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Very cool IK! I'm very interested to see how you did the knee aim. That's something sorely missing from the Crazy Bob rigs. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 23, 2008, 10:26pm
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Wiz the layout is a tweak of one Tiles (thanks Tiles) posted. Although I mainly use hotkeys I use the layout to give fast visual indicators of selected settings.
Always trying to get to a point where tools are almost transparent to the process of modelling or rigging etc.
Here I'll hit you with one of those plausible theory thingies we bandy between us lol
If I was a real world artist (lol coldn't be further from the truth) and I wanted a different brush or a different set of tools, I wouldn't want to have to go hunting about in the bottom of some bag (covered in cobwebs if I hadn't used it for a bit) looking for that other tool. The emphasis is on the creation, the tools are ideally a smoothly flowing extension of me as a creator, rather than me as a librarian that needs to remember a myriad of where the heck is that book type thingy. The weak link in this theory (see I can come up with some too lol) is me the user, due to my pants modelling ability. But heck I can model badly FAST:D
On the right of that screen you may also notice I have seperate visual clues for current axis, current select all or front only, grid and snap icons. This is a further extension of my fast visual clue workflow philosophy.
Ref dynapose and FK...... no aversion to FK at all, but its slower for roughing out poses, so again I go for the speed first, then tweak with FK after.
Am working on the theory that since IK doesn't need to have dynapose selected to work, again it is one less button to press and it's faster/immediate in normal object mode. Also dynapose seems to create ik on the fly which is a fantastic and unique ability, but sometimes if I build an IK rig it is done to get a specific outcome. With dynapose that outcome can be bypassed and potentially give a different result than I may have wanted. Dynapose is VERY powerful tool, but until I get the rigging gremlins ironed out, it's another variable to avoid until I have got through the rigging workflow issues/.
Phew sorry that was a long one, Pet theories do that to me :p
Twigglett-- so named as he is stick thin, brown, and looks better than he is/tastes. I swear they put sawdust in those things!
Jack I did the knee aim with a bit of a cheat. Twist limits opened on hip and toe then drag ik handle at heel. I swivels the whole leg to point knee. A bit of a cop out, but until be have aim constraints, it gets a reasonable result for now. End result looks believable.
3DFrog. As per online session last night I too appear to have major bone stretching issues once i start keyframing (as per Stem's post as well). Am planiing on looking at that aspect today.
One issue that has come up for fast posing is that ik handles can be too easily dragged completely out of position (assuming not using firm handles)
Firm handles/soft anim giving wrong outcome for what I wanted so am going to post a feature request to see if some sort of "distance from rig limit" can be set by user as a future option. Worth a go, but suggestions welcome as always. If you try the rig I posted you will see this problem (particularly on the 2 ik handles at the heels) in action. Much to easy to mess up the rig at this stage of TS rigging development. So looking for ways to clean things up a bit. (mass user appeal factor rather than fiddly specialisation, I guess I am going for)
Cheers and sorry for long post.... on a roll after some exciting TS dev news last night... Announcement to follow in next few days!!!!! WOOHOO.:banana:
IK |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 23, 2008, 11:54pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hi IK - thanks for the informative reply.
My theory is that it's not the tool but you can do with it that's important. When I went through the "Will I move from Model side to Workspace side?" phase one factor above all else influenced that decision - the default toolbar. Using it I felt something like a martial artist with 9 magical weapons, each capable of flipping out a subset of tools much like a Swiss Army Knife. One weapon accesses all the Axis tools, the next the Selection Method tools, the next the type of aspect selected tools then the tools that operate on that selection etc etc.
The automatic way the tools fly out for easy selection means I can easily remember the location of a specific tool because I'm thinking spatially. For example, suppose I want the 'Add Polygons' tool. It's in the same 'street' (fly out branch) as similar tools - Add Edge. Add Vertices. All the 'Add' tools live in the same street - 'Add' is a PE function, all of which live down the same 'road'. So to get to 'Add Polygons' tool I cruise down the 'motorway' (the default toolbar) take the 4th exit to PE function road and take the 6th turn off into Add Tools street and look for the sign. (Can you tell I used to be a courier delivery driver?) :D
In the same way that we can easily remember the route to familiar destinations we can easily remember the route to various fly out tools. I believe this caters to the natural way our minds work. Remembering what ther tool does, where it's located and what icon symbolises it all combine smoothly in the overall mnemonic associated with that specific tool.
The same principles apply when all the icons are displayed in a grid of course but the real advantage of the fly out tool bars is that they use up far less screen space.
So for me I don't experience it at all like "hunting about in the bottom of some bag (covered in cobwebs if I hadn't used it for a bit) looking for that other tool" or " as a librarian that needs to remember a myriad of where the heck is that book type thingy.". For me it's more like a cabby who knows which street has all the theatres, which street is the red light district, which lane has all the good cafes and restaurants.
On the other hand I support your Visual Clue workflow philosophy particularly with the World/Object/Screen axis tools and the X,Y and X lock tools.
Re FK v IK - the beauty of dynapose mode is that you get both depending on which skeleton bit you grab. Click and drag a bone for IK (also switching locks on and off as required) or select a joint to invoke it's FK widget.
Works like a charm and does not require setting up restrictive and possibly conflicting joint limits.
Maybe one day we should both start with the same unboned character mesh and see which methods allow the quickest and most effective ways to get that mesh walking.
Twigglets - yeah it's sawdust but what's that weird brown stuff? Heck I've not thought about those things in 20 years!:D
Meanwhile I'm off to build some more walk cycles;) |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 24, 2008, 12:14am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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To sum up... a big feature of TS is the fact that we can both configure the Prog to how WE want.
So you can do your thing and I can do mine, and we are both catered for, thats a very good software ability.
Ref dynapose. Am only avoiding as a temp thing to minimise variables if I have a quirk to resolve. Longterm it will be very high on list of tools I use all the time. Current priorities are just temporary.
I knew you'd have a fully reasoned theory. That's the beauty of TS. Both of us can have completely unique workflows and yet they both work! You stay in the Red like district if you want I am off to the Cinemas :D
IK |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 24, 2008, 3:03am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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To sum up... a big feature of TS is the fact that we can both configure the Prog to how WE want.
So you can do your thing and I can do mine, and we are both catered for, thats a very good software ability.
Ref dynapose. Am only avoiding as a temp thing to minimise variables if I have a quirk to resolve. Longterm it will be very high on list of tools I use all the time. Current priorities are just temporary.
I knew you'd have a fully reasoned theory. That's the beauty of TS. Both of us can have completely unique workflows and yet they both work! You stay in the Red like district if you want I am off to the Cinemas :D
IK
Exactly!! This is why I get a bit bent out of shape when Isee people swan in dabble with tS for week or two and then dismiss it as a toy when it's anything but! |
Post by jayr // Aug 25, 2008, 12:12am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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Thats really good IK, are you going to add an ankle roll? |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 25, 2008, 12:49am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Thx Jayr
Will be adding various bit's n bobs as I refine the best way to get the results we need. Ankle roll will be in there, it's already entirely do-able, just not got around to it yet.
With a bit of luck and some more digging I'll refine and add further options and controls.
As soon as everything is nice and stable I hope to make a few short vid tuts breaking down the rigging into it's various components, so even newcomers to rigging can make their own nice controllable rigs in next to no time. Just got to ensure I can easily repeat the process and always get 100% predictable results first. Currently there are a couple of issues which I need to resolve before I am at that point, but getting there :)
All the Best
IK |
Post by jayr // Aug 25, 2008, 1:30am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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It's looking great right now, lots of accuracy and control, just what you need for character animation |
Post by jayr // Aug 25, 2008, 1:58am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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Exactly!! This is why I get a bit bent out of shape when Isee people swan in dabble with tS for week or two and then dismiss it as a toy when it's anything but!
It's funny but seeing peoples reaction to TS on other forums, i.e "installed it, hated UI so uninstalled" made me begin to re-evaluate Blender because thats the same reaction i had to it. Goes to show we can all judge a program by it's UI from time to time. |
Post by Norm // Aug 25, 2008, 5:55am
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Norm
Total Posts: 862
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I enjoy the concept and presentation Igor. When time to do the tuts, if you had versions of the scene with only some joints functional, it would help focus on the various stages and joints and how you worked them in.
Very good to see this level of knowledge in a fun-to-use way :) |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 25, 2008, 9:10am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Hi Norm
Gonna do a whole lot better than that!!:D
Planning on doing a mini video tut series on individual controls (just for starters)
EG
3 min vid.... Setting up your own footroll
3 min Vid.... Setting up your own ballroll (that sounds bad) :D
3 min Vid.... Build your own waist controller
3 min Vid.... Weight Painting and workflow tips
Etc etc
Short fun and easy to follow 3 minute vids that will hopefully build up to a nice little reference library. A sort of pick n mix of controllers. One controller one vid.
Got a rig that needs a more realistic forearm twist, never done it before.. No problem, watch the 3 minute vid and you have the instant knowhow to add that extra joint and lock some rotations on the limits.
Need eyes that follow that football, no problem 3 minutes and you have the knowledge!
Want to rig the running gear on the wheels of that steam train... No problem,
OH now you want to automate the rig so it works as the train moves forward..what you think that's a problem???..... WRONG
Watch that vid..
Pistons.. well what do you think.. EASY! Watch a 3 min vid.
How about that Spanish Galleon in your scene...it would look so much better with furling sails, flapping flags and of course, nice stearing and rudder controls. Well what ya waiting for watch that vid!
Poor Maid Marion, she looks so empty handed without a fan in her hand wafting and opening/ closing.. No problem watch .... well you know what to do don't ya! King Arthur.... of course he needs a sword, go on then you know what to do.
Walk cycles
Rigs with Physics
Rigs with cloth with physics... ooo now thats a fun one!!
morphing
lipSync
Phenomes
Pseudo spline Ik for backs (or hissing Sid the snake anyone?)
IK/FK benefits of each
Dynamite Dynapose, super fast IK for all.... it's explosive :banana:
Etc etc
so even after all that new info you need 1 on 1 help with a rigging problem.. Ha.....that ain't a problem
Collaboration/ training / sharing and fun learning is about to take on a whole new meaning :D
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Watch this space for major TS Collaboration breakthrough!!!
It's coming REAL soon and boy you don't want to miss it!
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Thousands and thousands of possibilities about to be opened up in Truespace. The sheer diversity is absolutely staggering.
The TS animation train is about to leave the station, and WE are it's drivers. We are going to take TS where it has never been able to go before.
I can hear the steam building and am furiously polishing the brass before we leave. Just hope I get it done in time.
I'm absolutely SO excited of what is going to be possible, it really will be huge
Watch this space YOU AINT SEEN NOTHING YET :jumpy:
IK
Of course me being me there may be a humour warning attached, but heck its more fun to laugh n learn and its a load more fun to demo as well.
Anyone else that wants to join the fun, Come on down, the fun is absolutely only just starting, and the party hasn't even started yet! |
Post by jayr // Aug 25, 2008, 11:12am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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Any time-scale on all that IK? |
Post by Steinie // Aug 25, 2008, 1:38pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Igor, this is great news! This is quite exciting knowing that this stuff will be explained so that even a beginner can follow and learn too.
I think it is a mistake not to put all these videos in the Tutorial thread. They will be lost here in the Roundtable thread after a short time.
Keep up the fantastic job your doing. |
Post by frootee // Aug 25, 2008, 5:16pm
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Go Igor Go!
You and aidon keep it up man! |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 26, 2008, 4:24am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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I agree, once we get up and running we WILL ensure that all tuts are put in one easy to find place. As you say the tut request thread is as good as any.
On this subject if anyone has experience of streaming vid sites IE Utube alternatives, please give us your input. We need a home to post streaming vids that's longterm, free, reliable and better viewing quality than Utube. Suggestions with reasoning very welcome.
There will be a slight delay before all this kicks off, working flat out and everything at a somewhat hectic level right now.
The proposed rigging tuts are a small part of a bigger picture that we absolutely believe will have a big big longterm impact on TS users both individually and collaboratively. It might even have the potential to reach right out of TS and make waves in the wider commercial 3D world, that remains to be seen.
Will be making an announcement later today:D
Another piece in the jigsaw clicks into place.
Real soon there is some stuff that we are pushing to make happen and that if us the users take and collaboratively run with, will simply set Truespace and our capabilities somewhere we could all only have dreamed of before. In fact that ANY 3D app could have dreamed of before! That's not exaggeration, I've seen 3/4 of the picture, it's a fact! A while back it was only a seed of an idea, a "what if". But piece by piece, even to our own surprise, we are managing to turn it into a reality (with help).
We would both like to say a big thanks to all the Caligari staff who have been dragged into our hairbrained "what if" scheme and then helped towards making it possible. In particular we would like to thank Paul Ashington for his input, and his very generous donation of a personal project.
This giant jigsaw that Aidan and I have been piecing together is almost complete. But actually thats just the start of the big picture:jumpy:
Regards
IK
Ps Calling all scripters and LE buffs, your input is about to be needed for phase 2..... time to sharpen those pencils! |
Post by RAYMAN // Aug 26, 2008, 4:47am
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RAYMAN
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Igor thats great !
I wish I´d have my TS t.6 back pretty soon as I´m still from an internetcafe
with my HD slowly recuping !
Worst crash I´ve ever had in 10 years and am happy my HD is still alive !
I wont say anything good about my Vista again ! Fallen into pieces !:mad:
Peter |
Post by jayr // Aug 26, 2008, 7:19am
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jayr
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wow, can't wait to see this take off IK. i've got 2 websites right now and some spare space, if you need hosting for any tuts PM me and we can try and work something out, maybe a joint venture on a TrueSpace themed site.
I remember a thread about an online Truespace magazine site somewhere, maybe that could help |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 26, 2008, 10:10am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Hi Jayr
Cheers for your offer. we are beavering away here furiously. Not going to record tuts until a couple of minor hiccups are sorted out, but we understand both are well and truly in hand at Caligari land.
What we could maybe do is some prelim collab realtime rigging stuff just to get the ball rolling in the near the near feature?
Rayman That sux having to use net cafes just to get online. Have only ever had 2 HDs go on me over about 20 + years, but both were terminal: (Such a pain when it happens!)
Have been very cautious with Vista... IE I put it on my Missus ;s pc lol, she can run it for yonks before I even think about risking it on mine :)
Cheers
IK |
Post by jayr // Aug 26, 2008, 10:40am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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sure let me know, i was thinking also of a repository for the tutorials when you start, no harm in getting that ready before you do them! We could add other tutorials that people submit too. I'll send you a PM with my email address. |
Post by W!ZARD // Aug 31, 2008, 12:19am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hi IK - not sure whats going onhere but I was unable to open the zip file.:( |
Post by 3dfrog // Aug 31, 2008, 4:36am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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i couldn't play it either :( |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 31, 2008, 4:37am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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3dfrog, did the zip open ok?
IE is it a zip issue or the swf file itself?
IK |
Post by aidanodr // Aug 31, 2008, 5:03am
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aidanodr
Total Posts: 90
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Hey IK,
I downloaded your zip file - its corrupt. Trys to extract then bombs out with crc error. I reckon zip it again and when you do so, try unzipping before upload just to check. I end up with an FLV file extracted but only 737kb in size. It could also be as a result of upload if the original still unzips on your PC. If so delete the current one online and reupload?
Give you a shout / skype later - off to cinema with Caroline, more quality time :)
Aidan |
Post by Igor K Handel // Aug 31, 2008, 5:03am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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EDIT... have reposted this in it's entirety, due to zipped file issue. Hopefully the attached zip will be compatible with what I suspect are some of the older zip progs out there!
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Heres my first public test animation using 100% IK.
Very Very close... Only the wobbly solver that stands between us and some very nice capability! All the wobbles and interpenatration are down to the solver. Once thats sorted we will be flying!!
NB
Scene building is not my thing lol (as you'll see)
It's just a small test but things are looking extremely promising.
Keep those keyframes coming
Unzip the movie (6.6meg) and double click the swf ctrl
My usual tongue in cheek style, hope it raises a smile or two.
IK
The promo pic :D |
Post by 3dfrog // Aug 31, 2008, 5:22am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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nice one ik! i see a little bone stretching occuring on the pelvis, hopefully our ik system will be more solid soon :) |
Post by aidanodr // Aug 31, 2008, 5:32am
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aidanodr
Total Posts: 90
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Hi IK,
As I said in my PM one of the things that was an issue in Blender for a while was where feet used go under the floor in a walkcycle - thay got around this with null type things and modifiers in the NLA. As a way of illustration heres my little BoxBot doing a walk around the room. Find attached.
Its using XVid I think. It uses the new walk cycle tools added since about ver 2.45. Soon lets hope TS has this control too. They also addressed foot slippage. The walk uses a path set by you ( a Spline ) to direct the character where to walk.
Ultimately - the plan with this one is to set up a BoxBot Chat show type thing - humorous. Once TS has the IK sorted I will transfer the idea over to work on it in TS.
Aidan |
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