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Monthly Gallery - user voting suggestion
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Monthly Gallery - user voting suggestion // Roundtable
Post by TomG // Sep 24, 2008, 1:48am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hi all,
So after reading user comments, we would like to invite comments on the idea of having the Caligari monthly gallery voted on by you, the community. We'd like to invite your comments and ideas on this.
For example, we might pick the 10 best in each category (or up to 10 I should say) and post those to a poll here in the forums, where your votes would determine the final winner. Such a process would mean there was always a winner selected (unless no-one voted I suppose!).
What does everyone think? What does everyone suggest in terms of how this might work?
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Sep 24, 2008, 1:53am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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This is a dreadful idea. By it's pure nature the 'community' can't be unbiased. It should be judged behind closed doors by a small committee of Caligari personel, ie, not just one person but, say, three or so to give a more balanced opinion. |
Post by Steinie // Sep 24, 2008, 2:20am
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Steinie
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As long as there is more than one judge I'd be fine with any decision. I like the idea of three judges with three different taste. Some of the Judges could even be Beta testers if they wanted to participate in judging. You could cycle the Judges month to month to keep it fresh.
There should be a minimum amount of entries before judging and if you don't get enough entries combine months for that category.
"Special Recognition" should either be awarded something or eliminated.
There should be an Award for Best in Show at the end of the year. Have the best ones each Month go to vote by the Forum users.
Thanks for asking. |
Post by TomG // Sep 24, 2008, 2:45am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Keep the suggestions and feedback coming! Depending on what ends up being the chosen method, we might implement it for the next round of judging (we'd certainly like to do that, depends on any technical difficulties that might arise depending on the solution).
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by transient // Sep 24, 2008, 3:12am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I think it's an interesting idea - it's kind of an extension of what's been successfully trialled in the community contests.
At the moment the monthly gallery is kind of orphaned from the community and the speed modeling contest has lot more interest. These changes would fix this. It also shows that Caligari is listening to it's users, which is nice.
So overall it's a yes for me.:) |
Post by splinters // Sep 24, 2008, 3:27am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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1. I don't like the idea of community voting on this particular gallery. Too many reasons to mention.
2. I like the idea of a small panel of Caligari staff...keeps it focused on the product. Why not put it to the gold ambassadors...make them earn a crust. Winning entrants get gold ambassador status and so can vote the next month. Surely each gold ambassador has had a high profile or several wins in gallerys/competitions before so they are as 'unbiased' as you might get. We have about 10 don't we?
3. Award a prize each month..too many questions raised about being chosen to display the work but not being considered 'good enough to win'.
4. Give a prize that is an incentive to win...sorry, but I believe in healthy competition. I think the idea of a 'mention' will not be an incentive to enter.
5. Vray is great but what about those who already have it? Will they enter again once they have won? What about allowing a transfer of license...you won it give it to who you like...:D
6. A range of prizes that enhance what we do in 3D: Space Navigators, graphics cards, monitors, tablets, copies of Photoshop etc. Watch the entries come tumbling in then...
When there is an incentive either by coverage (I don't think the Caligari gallery quite has the kudos of other galleries) or by prize I think there will be more effort put into creating prize winning images.
7. Bring back the student prize too..it is an incentive for those that may believe their talents to be 'not good enough to enter'. Oh, and they usually have little money to spend on stuff. Todays students are tomorrows customers. We can't all be around here forever...who will take up the reins for the next generation of tS user?
Hemulin entered once spurred on by tS as a prize and he didn't do too bad from the encouragement.
Hell, I would enter again if I thought I might win and be able to transfer a copy of Vray to a student.
On a final note, why not support those that support you and buy a bunch of dribble licenses each month for the honorable mentions...;)
That sort of support might encourage more 3rd party stuff to be produced...:D |
Post by prodigy // Sep 24, 2008, 3:47am
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prodigy
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Very good points Paul.. |
Post by transient // Sep 24, 2008, 3:56am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I think getting ambassadors to vote isn't a bad idea to ensure that quality entries end up winning, but I'm not sure it does anything to curtail bias, or at least the perception of it. The decisions you make could be perceived dubiously very easily - what if one your student's wins, or someone you have had a disagreement with loses (I mean "you" as in any of the ambassadors)? Are you allowed to enter?
I think this is a dangerous idea for the ambassadors involved. To be honest, if this was the way things eventually work I wouldn't publicize it. There's nothing stopping Caligari quietly asking for your opinion now.;)
To my mind this idea's big payoff is the increased community involvement and hence ownership. Sorry Splinters.:o
However, I definitely agree with idea number six, and rewarding students is a good idea too imo. Getting truespace into schools, especially with the free video tutorials and carrots (prizes), is potentially a big win for Caligari. |
Post by splinters // Sep 24, 2008, 4:12am
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splinters
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No need to apologise transient, I was just musing over who at Caligari would judge if, indeed, we are worried about one person making this decision. We have Tom Paul and Norm, but would dev's want to judge artwork or animations?
I agree that ambassadors could be biased but why were they picked to be ambassadors? Surely they are helpful, non-judgemental and hopefully trustworthy. Having a large group should ensure that no-one could sneak in a student (surely that was aimed at me...how many other teachers here use tS so publically?...;))
Plus, if there were a student prize, surely they would enter that compo. Hemulin was my student until a few months ago and he has been a beta tester and turning out quality work for years without any help from me...:D
I think we could easily direct the same suspicions at the 'whole community'; some may dislike the 'cartoon ' style favored by me, Steinie and others. People may be biased towards a particular genre regardless of image quality. The level of attendance fluctuates...votes would be cast by hast visitors perhaps without taking the time to look...random votes (tail on donkey?)...seeing your mates right (old school)? etc. etc.
Madmouse turns out work quite rarely but when he does it is often amazing and anyone with lesser abilitied might think, Whoah!...vote for that one without taking the time to look at the finer details in other entries (sorry Steve, you know what I mean!)
I like the idea of community voting...just not on the main gallery. Now, if all that tradition were to change....
Have a 'viewers choice' and a 'judges choice' gallery...:D Other sites do.
Just please award a prize (no matter how small...cough...dribble?...cough) so that you are actually picking a winner. |
Post by prodigy // Sep 24, 2008, 4:20am
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prodigy
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I like the idea of a judement from caligari staff..
Roman, Thomas, Norm, Paul... etc..
That's fair enough for me.. Not just 1 POV.
And im agree if there's no such of good work, left the winner place empty..
Caligari must show good works.. not the best of the worst hahahha.. you know what i mean..
Good prizes would be great to motivate users to enter.. or not.. be recognited by your work is a very good prize for me..
Translate the prize for others is a very good thing if you win several times..
The winner can send his prize for a friend, student, or someone else.. |
Post by splinters // Sep 24, 2008, 4:35am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I am a gold ambassador but not looking for any extra responsibilty...;)
I was just trying to define a group of people who could be asked for their opinion on a gallery...who would you pick to do that?
Well, didn't Caligari already do that when they asked you to be an ambassador? And if winning meant you got to vote, you would be acknowledged as having skill in the use of tS.
We have game designers, illustrators, product designers, architectural viz, and just about every genre covered in the ambassadors, Of course, Roman, Tom or Norm etc. get the final say if there is any dispute over an overall winner...such as bias etc.
Just bouncing around ideas...it seems that ambassadors are little more than a 'legacy' from the time before MS nowadays. No offence folks...that is me too! Not sure what their purpose is in these new times...perhaps this would rejuvenate their roles...:D |
Post by W!ZARD // Sep 24, 2008, 5:08am
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W!ZARD
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I think it's great that Caligari is coming to the forum for input on this issue - although they get it anyway!!
I'm with Kate and the others who are not in favour of the community voting - unless it's a community choice as an extra to the main judges choice - which is best made by Caligari staff.
I don't believe that the Ambassadors should make the choices by virtue of their ambassador-ship - this was awarded simply on the basis of having posted tS content on other forums IIRC, something I've done for as long as I've been posting my tS work.
If members of the community do vote it should be a select few that continuously changes - perhaps this months place getters could vote for next months winners or something - or at least be part of the overall judging panel with the oversight of Caligari staff - sorry Tom, Norm, I'm sure you have more than enough work on your plates already!!
Another suggestion is that alongside the main winner/s selected by the judging panel there is an additional prize for 'most improved artist' or 'most promising new work' which could be chosen by the community.
I think Splinters points (excluding the ambassadors being the judges) are all excellent - specially;
1. No community voting on this particular gallery - for the main prize/s anyway.
2. Small panel of Caligari staff...keeps it focused on the product.
3. Award a prize each month - at least 1.
4. Give a prize that is an incentive to win. (A valid point seeing as two of the 3 suggested current prizes have met with an overwhelming 'so what' response - Vray seems to be the prize that folk want and thaqt's just folk (like me) who don't have it yet).
5. Vray is great but what about those who already have it? Will they enter again once they have won? What about allowing a transfer of license...you won it give it to who you like...I really like this idea.
and finally, this suggestion from Splinters is excellent "why not support those that support you and buy a bunch of dribble licenses each month for the honorable mentions...
That sort of support might encourage more 3rd party stuff to be produced..."
@Prodigy - Re "Caligari must show good works.. not the best of the worst hahahha.. you know what i mean.." erm... I'm not sure I do know what you mean! Going to Caligari's home page right now and the 'Galleries' picture rotates through a Submarine, a scene from an animation and a VE model. Given that both the animation and the VE model are mine I'm not comfortable with having my work classed as the 'Best or the worst':(. It could be that my work is amongst the best of the best but lacked sufficient competition from others to justify awarding a prize.;) |
Post by Nez // Sep 24, 2008, 5:15am
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I agree with most of Splinters' suggestions in terms of prizes, motivation etc - some good ideas there - e.g what to give VRay users, transfer of prizes etc
But I'd be a little worried at the suggestion of the Ambassadors voting - not for possible bias but only because that would presumably mean they would have to be excluded from submitting to ensure the vote is impartial. That would be quite a loss as they are, by definition, all capable of great images and therefore these images might be 'lost' from the Gallery (to the detriment of the website as a whole). Also, if each winner then becomes an ambassador then they'd become precluded from further entries? That's not going to help the number of entries...
On the flip side, it would be great for the rest of us as it would remove a whole load of worthy submissions we have to compete against ;) which gives us a better chance of winning.
Overall, I think this idea would be better than having the whole community vote, which could see skewed/tactical voting, although a seperate forum vote might be interesting. A Caligari panel would be OK provided - as suggested - it's at least 3-4 people to try to ensure a varied viewpoint.
definitely a difficult position.
edit - typed at the same time as W!zard so we've duplicated a few items... |
Post by W!ZARD // Sep 24, 2008, 5:31am
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W!ZARD
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edit - typed at the same time as W!zard so we've duplicated a few items...
Only I used far more words....:D;) |
Post by Nez // Sep 24, 2008, 5:51am
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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Well, of course...:p |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Sep 24, 2008, 5:58am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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@Prodigy - Re "Caligari must show good works.. not the best of the worst hahahha.. you know what i mean.." erm... I'm not sure I do know what you mean!
Actually, Prodigy is spot on with that statement. The main aim of the Caligari
gallery should be to showcase the product and (and I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for this but someone's gotta stick their head over the trench) many of the works we see do not show tS in the best light. Sure, they're nice, I'm not saying they're bad at all, but look at it from an outsiders view point; You're interested in trueSpace, you check out the feature specs, they're impressive, you check out the artwork that's being done with it and, as a whole, it doesn't do it justice. Picking a winner just for the sake of having a winner is an awful idea and doesn't show trueSpace as a serious product to outsiders and potential customers.
I don't like the idea of 'everyone getting a prize' either. That seems a bit too much like a kiddies party game of pass the parcel where there's a little prize in each layer just so that the losers don't cry. It's called a competition for a reason. The entrants should strive to enter the best pic. If you don't win, it should drive you on to do better and you should be inspired by the entry that beat you and try again, improving all the time.
To make my point, look at the galleries of other 3D app manufacturers, modo for example, their products are instantly shown in a much better light to potential new customers because the instantly visable possible results are damned impressive, unfortunately that can't be said about all of the CaliGalleries. |
Post by Breech Block // Sep 24, 2008, 5:59am
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Breech Block
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I think Splinters has come up with a very good list of suggestions and I find myself supporting most of them - bar the judging for the reasons that Nez hit upon about GA's being eliminated from entry. With regards prizes, they certainly need to be aimed more at a 3D artists needs and offering Dribble as a secondary prize would certainly inspire me. Plus there is the a spin-off of supporting plug-in development.
That all said, IMO, the trouble with the monthly competition is twofold:
1 - It would appear that only images of V-Ray quality are actually good enough to win – but most submissions are made by people trying to win V-Ray; so there is this whole catch 22 thing going on.
2 - There has been debates raging on these forums about judging and criteria for as long as I can remember. Personally, I don't care who the judges are. However, what I do feel is that the criteria for a winning entry\what Caligari are looking for and the whole voting\judging process need to made totally transparent and the details of such published in a very clear and concise manner for all to see.
Thanks for listening. |
Post by frootee // Sep 24, 2008, 6:26am
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Total Posts: 2667
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And I would like to add this.
Barring technical issues, the vote and updates should be done as early as possible; not seeing the results til the 10th or so of the month is a bit unmotivational.
However, I do understand there is a considerable amount of effort required not only for the judging, but also for the website updates.
Nonetheless, having multiple judges should also expedite the process; at least, the judging portion of the process. |
Post by TomG // Sep 24, 2008, 6:30am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Actually more judges will make it harder - a new judging process will need to be implemented, and then we are dependent on the schedules of all those people.
So the date of release of results is highly unlikely to change, unless we change the cut off date to be earlier? We could just allow 3 weeks out of 4 for submissions, and use the last week as judging with results out on 1st?
Tom |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Sep 24, 2008, 6:38am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
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Why complicate it? "why wasn't mine included? Maybe I entered a day late, but it's the right month..." Last day of the month, no debate or confusion, everyone knows when that is. So what if the results are a week/week and a half after the closing date? That's normal for many comps. |
Post by trebs // Sep 24, 2008, 6:42am
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trebs
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<cough>
Can I be a contest judge?
People might think I'm arrogant and only turn up to stir trouble. That's an opinion. My opinion is that I have an eye for detail and can offer a very fair and unbiased review.
What's my experience?
Ask Roman or Tom for a resumé.
plus.. I'm still using tS in combination with my photographic work.
I don't need an ambassador icon to do that either. |
Post by TomG // Sep 24, 2008, 6:42am
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TomG
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Personally I like the current system, submit by last day, its very clear. But results will take 5 to 7 days to put together. It is no different from other contests, often there is a month to wait between close of submission and results showing up.
But willing to throw any ideas into the mix to see what the community thinks :)
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by prodigy // Sep 24, 2008, 6:51am
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prodigy
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@Prodigy - Re "Caligari must show good works.. not the best of the worst hahahha.. you know what i mean.." erm... I'm not sure I do know what you mean! Going to Caligari's home page right now and the 'Galleries' picture rotates through a Submarine, a scene from an animation and a VE model. Given that both the animation and the VE model are mine I'm not comfortable with having my work classed as the 'Best or the worst':(.
Greetings Wizard.. you know i have alot respect for you and your work... so that's was not for you or any other specific member or artist from this community..
i just try to tell sometimes there's no good material to win.. sometimes there is..... others there is but there's no winner either.. so that's fair for me if 2 or 3 people has the same conclussion.... im not agree that every player win a prize.. that eliminate people sending a cube to the gallery waiting for a prize..
I just think we need some fun... |
Post by frootee // Sep 24, 2008, 7:27am
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frootee
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I should clarify; poor choice of words on my part. Scratch the word 'early'; what I meant was, perform the judging and get the results online after the deadline (deadline=last day of month) more quickly. Try to be more consistent with the posting date; About a year or so ago, it seems results were typically posted around the 5th of the month. Nowadays, results appear to be posted around the 10th of the month. Just a suggestion.
Actually more judges will make it harder - a new judging process will need to be implemented, and then we are dependent on the schedules of all those people.
So the date of release of results is highly unlikely to change, unless we change the cut off date to be earlier? We could just allow 3 weeks out of 4 for submissions, and use the last week as judging with results out on 1st?
Tom |
Post by splinters // Sep 24, 2008, 7:51am
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splinters
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Ok, OK...I concede...ambassadors might not be the best idea especially as they would probably be exempt from entry.
I like the Caligari staff idea and the end of month deadline. I still think there is room for a 'student' galllery which, limited to those of student age (not mature student i.e under 23) is a good idea.
Wizard...actually you are not entirely correct with regards to the criteria for ambassador status. You say 'awarded simply on the basis of having posted tS content on other forums ' but I didn't do that...did everybody else?
I remember that being a different competition but I believe many were chosen for their contribution to the tS community in general. That is why I was offered the role, I hardly post elsewhere.
Trebs, I would not endorse you as a judge regardless of your resume. I have nothing but respect for your artwork and outspoken comments about the quality of work which I have supported many times. But I have been here years and rarely see your name in the forums (52 posts in over 2 years), new users may have no idea who you are at all, with your last post (other than reaction to tS7.6 release) being early 2008.
I would love to see any recent work in tS7.6 that might change my mind but in my opinion, the only person who has me in awe of workspace mastership is Parva. That is no disrespect to those doing amazing work with materials, codes scripts etc. Parva simply appeals to my artistic side which is far more dominant than my 'techie' side.
I accepted an Ambassadors role because I am active in the community but I would not want to be a judge...that you have not actively contributed to the community would further cause me to question your suitability as a judge. I think it best that Caligari keep the judges details to themselves. Maybe they will make you that offer and say no more about it.
I also have a good eye for composition, lighting and detail....but I would not like to be judging the work of the entrants. Additionally I would not consider your post about the demise in quality of the galleries which then used your own artwork as an example of 'how it used to be done' to be 'fair and unbiased'.
Again, nothing but respect for the artwork I have seen and your candid views but I was quite suprised to see your offer to be a judge there. |
Post by Bobbins // Sep 24, 2008, 8:06am
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Bobbins
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I'd keep it as being voted on only by Caligari staff. Suggesting 'Ambassadors' vote on it is just as bad an idea as getting forum users to vote on it, so do not go that route.
One change I would make is to force entrants to post the scene file or at the least a screenshot of the scene in tS as part of their entry. |
Post by trebs // Sep 24, 2008, 8:22am
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Splinters, As far as I know, the gallery has nothing to do with the tool used, but it's a final render, or image. Whether it was made with tS2 or 7.6, that has no relevance to what is on display on the front page.
I hear what you are saying, totally. I've not been around, but when I do look around, I can count on one hand the people that are pushing hard with the latest version. You have to agree that just about anything in the galleries can be done in just about any old version of tS. It's frustrating to see all the tools we begged for being implemented and hardly used.
Really, when it boils down to anything, it's a result that counts. That's what is sold, that's the representation of the artist and the product. In my new line of work, my clients don't ask what equipment I'm using, or what experience I have, they want the result.
You say yourself that you wouldn't want to be a judge, to be honest if I was as active in here as you, I wouldn't either. It's far too close to the source for comfort. Far too many influences around. That's a reason why in so many contests an external jury are taken.
Now, I'm not hell-bent on doing it, In some ways it'd be my way of putting something back into the community, it'd take up time, time I'd be willing to put in. I even think written feed-back is a good idea, a balanced critique of the work. More often than not it's a simple failure to see details that can make an image stunning or very poor.
You do have a point about younger users not knowing who I am but on the other hand, there's still artwork around promoting tS that was made by users before my time! still strong enough to promote a software package that has developed through many versions.
Roman and I have had our moments, good and bad. We've even met and talked about our views of tS and it's development path. The others at the top all know me and they know that there are others with similar skills, views and knowledge as me lurking in the wings. I do ask them to seriously consider a shakeup here, to boost the gallery and the product.
Caligari don't have to pick me, that's not my point at all, but I do stand behind the fact that a change is needed, and that the selection shouldn't be made from within the heart of the users. If no substantial change is to be made, I'd suggest it's left as it is.
With respect.
Rob. |
Post by noko // Sep 24, 2008, 8:44am
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noko
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Not sure how this would work. There are folks who submit art for monthly contest who are not part of the forums or do very little in the community. Which at times brought forth stunning results well worthy of the win which encourage others to use tS since the piece used a number of features from the software show casing it.
Now if it is going to be a community vote, polling, maybe a secret poll is used and would be better. As in the votes are casted but results are not shown, so results will be a mystery until it is declared. One of the eager thing now about the monthly contest is the eager anticipation in who won, how did one did etc.. Don't take that away.
I would rather see a two fold approach, maybe three fold. A Caligari vote (Staff), Gold member vote (unless one has submitted a piece which will allow one to contribute to the contest) and Community vote maybe. Each having a equal part in the winner, ties goes to Roman (who I would recommend have free choice of any submitted work :D). For available prizes this too maybe should be voted on to encourage participation, once again maybe by same method. Hey if people see something they really want and was heard, how can that not encourage more participation and better stunning work?
Just some thoughts. |
Post by splinters // Sep 24, 2008, 9:05am
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splinters
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As always trebs, I enjoy reading your views and that was a marvellous response to my post. If you had made more posts around here like that I would never have doubted your intentions in the first place.
Great points...all of them! and what a relief to read a response that takes the points made for how they were intended rather than any sort of personal attack.
Perhaps you would be suitable as a judge but if I were you I wouldn't want anyone knowing I was on the panel...;)
I like your candid approach and again agree with most of what you say...stick around and make your presence known a bit more.
respect back to you...:) |
Post by Finis // Sep 24, 2008, 9:08am
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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This is a private/company decision so company leadership can and should run the gallery however they want to. It is good that they are listening to the customers.
I would like to see some kind of vote added to the gallery but not to replace the company judge(s). Two winners ... one chosen by the company and one by customer votes. Using Splinter's terms: judge's choice and viewer's choice.
Suggestions:
Judges (Company) contest:
- Judges select one winner each month and some honorable mentions. No carry overs or no winner months.
- Judges select one super winner per year from monthly winners.
- Judge's winner gets a choice of practical prizes such as TS/3D related software or hardware.
- Have a selection of prizes so someone who won before can still get a new prize.
- "Support those who support you." Buy plug-ins etc. and add to prize menu.
Viewer (Forum Members) contest:
- Forum members only may vote. That means a large group but still limited to customers interested enough to join the forum.
- Any member may vote.
- Voting system allows only one vote per member per contest.
- Members vote on the same submissions as judges.
- One monthly member's choice winner with no honorable mentions.
- Members vote during the time when the judges are deciding on their pick. (So members don't know the judges decisions.)
- Monthly prizes and/or a prize for a yearly super winner (voted by members).
Both:
- I agree with Breech Block about transparent criteria. Make the rules and goals of the contests easily available and clear.
- Show the software used for each image. Viewers shouldn't think it is all TS if it isn't.
- No second place. Only the best in each contest gets a prize.
- A specific entry deadline with late submissions going in the next contest.
- A specific date, giving enough time for judging/voting, when results will be posted.
This would support the company goal of promoting the product by selecting work that shows its abilities. It also adds interest by including an award possibly based on other merits and gives participation to customers.
Since TS is free now and zillions of people have it there should soon be many submissions of good quality. So there should should be no reason not to have a winner each month. |
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