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Character Animation Potential For TrueSpace
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Character Animation Potential For TrueSpace // Roundtable
Post by Woodclock // Oct 13, 2008, 9:29am
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Woodclock
Total Posts: 9
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I actually thought, that by now, many more "visitors" would be present on a daily basis, over here at the TrueSpace forums. I think I know the reason that there have been fewer than expected:
Most 3D professionals and long term hobbiests already own and are using some other application for "normal" 3D operations like modeling and rendering. Most are satisfied with the performance of their existing software in these two categories, since the solutions have been fairly good and available for such a long time, at prices they can afford.
What many of us are now looking for is a better, simpler, faster solution for character rigging and animation. It is a very unpleasant and uncreative and overly-technical task in most of the applications that we are already using.
Although TrueSpace 7.6 now offers some of the fastest, simplest and most natural tools for rigging and animating a 3D character, many new users, (myself included), have realized that, once rigged, these characters don't behave as we would expect and manipulating such a character can be quite unpredictable.
In short, we have been disappointed and have gone away to do other things, returning here, only rarely, to see if things have changed. We've read about the upcoming "patch" and are hoping that will solve the present lack in TrueSpace's character tools.
If they worked as one would expect, I can think of no other character animation solution that would be so fast and easy to set up, or as pleasurable to animate with. All of the real time advantages of TrueSpace would simply make it more fun and more of a creative experience. I'd start using it right away to animate the "voxel" characters I have begun making with 3D-Coat. You really must look at how excellently and quickly the new "alpha" version of 3D-Coat, (open to the public for full usage), has been advancing. What an amazing sculpting application this is becoming!
Greg Smith
3DCoatings.net (Find out how to sculpt with "voxels" in 3D-Coat) |
Post by mrbones // Oct 13, 2008, 10:15am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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What kind of misbehavings are you experiencing?
Can you be more specific?
Cheers |
Post by Plum // Oct 13, 2008, 10:48am
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Plum
Total Posts: 39
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Hiya.
As a person who's first 3d program was truespace 2, I can say one thing: Caligari still hasn't gotten to the 'ease of use' animation part. I'm still waiting. I've been waiting, uh, hmm...10+ years? I'm a pretty patient guy, but I'd really like to see Caligari focus on good, solid, easy and powerful ANIMATION. That's not too much to ask is it? ;)
What do I mean? Hmmm...I guess the easiest way to describe it would be this: Take Hash "Animation:Master"...now make tS do this with poly's. :)
Seriously. Animation:Master has *awesome* animation capabilities. It's show-stopper problem isn't going away...well, at least not until the current folks there quit/leave/die/are abducted by aliens/etc. That problem? Doesn't support polygons for animation. For the life of me I can't understand why they don't at least add some more export options for those of us (re: 99.99999% of the animator population). I guess Martin's statement is still the reason (it was basically "A:M will never be a 'plug-in' for other apps"). *sigh* Annoying, but oh well. His company, his rules. :rolleyes:
So, take a look at how and what AM has for character animation...now make tS do that. :D |
Post by Electric Jim // Oct 13, 2008, 11:06am
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Electric Jim
Total Posts: 98
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mrbones: I assume Woodclock is referring to the sorts of issues that were getting discussed, primarily in "Bugs" and "Tech Forum", a number of weeks ago by myself, IK Handel, Wizard, and others. (In a nutshell: What I find is that I can pose and keyframe a skeleton with no problem, but on playback the "between-keyframe" behavior of the skeleton is totally not what was expected. The character can seem to "float", locks can break, etc. between the keyframes, though at the keyframes themselves the skeleton (more or less) settles into the correct poses.)
My understanding from other people's posts is that BVH animations created elsewhere and imported into tS generally seem to work fine, so those who purely use that workflow for character animation probably wouldn't have encountered these problems. |
Post by mrbones // Oct 13, 2008, 11:15am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Thanks Jim.
Hopefully those issues will be history in the near future.
Now is the time to air any or all issues related to character animation.
Cheers
mrbones: I assume Woodclock is referring to the sorts of issues that were getting discussed, primarily in "Bugs" and "Tech Forum", a number of weeks ago by myself, IK Handel, Wizard, and others. (In a nutshell: What I find is that I can pose and keyframe a skeleton with no problem, but on playback the "between-keyframe" behavior of the skeleton is totally not what was expected. The character can seem to "float", locks can break, etc. between the keyframes, though at the keyframes themselves the skeleton (more or less) settles into the correct poses.)
My understanding from other people's posts is that BVH animations created elsewhere and imported into tS generally seem to work fine, so those who purely use that workflow for character animation probably wouldn't have encountered these problems. |
Post by Burnart // Oct 13, 2008, 11:49am
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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I'm not so hung up on bugs (which hopefully will be addressed). I have said before that we actually need more tools in this regard. Specifically simple pose storage tools that create a graphic showing what the pose is. Also some kind of script/node/brick whatever that lets you easily hook up a rigged character to sliders. Sometimes widgets confuse the issue and seem to get in the way so having an alternate would be useful. Whether either of these is exclusively the domain of Caligari or open to an enthusiatic developer I can't say - my knowledge of the inner workings of tS and the LE is minimal. |
Post by Woodclock // Oct 13, 2008, 1:25pm
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Woodclock
Total Posts: 9
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What kind of misbehavings are you experiencing?
Can you be more specific?
Cheers
Mr. Bones:
I've experienced most of the problems chronicled in the thread, mentioned above, that Igor started.
What I'd like to be able to do quickly, elegantly and easily, (how can these all be mutually inclusive?), are the following things:
Rig a character simply, that would allow it to sit on the "floor", squat or kneel with one simple movement of a single IK handle.
With that same rig, be able to simply twist the character, (along the spine), either to the right, or to the left, from hips to chest with one quick "mouse gesture", no widgets, please.
Also with that same rig, be able to smoothly bend the character, (along the spine), to the right, to the left, to the front or to the rear with one of 4 simple mouse gestures - again, no widgets, please.
I know these things can already be done in many applications through the means of extensive, overly technical, extremely complicated, unintelligible rigs designed by technical directors - but that is precisely the problem, and the reason why many animators don't animate in 3D.
If Caligari jumps that hurdle, TrueSpace will automatically become the only 3D application that character animators would actually enjoy using. Animators would wake up every morning with a smile, leaping from their beds, in a single bound, all the way to their couch or console, (before they've even had their morning cup of coffee), uttering a joyful sigh as they push the power button and start their day.
Or something very like that,
Greg Smith
P.S. If you want to see several examples of someone who's already invented the means for doing things like this with complex characters, look at the following page:
http://www.kunzhou.net/ |
Post by mrbones // Oct 13, 2008, 1:29pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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I admire your ambition,
Is this the equivalent of building bricks without straw?
When you say widgets, do you mean Ik handles?
Have you ever tried using the phys move tool to manipulate a rig instead of the dynamic pose tool?
I will see what we can come up with per your suggestions.
Although most of them seem currently possible. (sit, squat, spine bend forward sideways etc..)
Thanks again and Cheers
Joe
Mr. Bones:
I've experienced most of the problems chronicled in the thread, mentioned above that Igor started.
What I'd like to be able to do quickly, elegantly and easily, (how can these all be mutually inclusive?), are the following things:
Rig a character simply, that would allow it to sit on the "floor", squat or kneel with one simple movement of a single IK handle.
With that same rig, be able to simply twist the character, (along the spine), either to the right, or to the left, from hips to chest with one quick "mouse gesture", no widgets, please.
Also with that same rig, be able to smoothly bend the character, (along the spine), to the right, to the left, to the front or to the rear with one of 4 simple mouse gestures - again, no widgets, please.
I know these things can already be done in many applications through the means of extensive, overly technical, extremely complicated, unintelligible rigs designed by technical directors - but that is precisely the problem, and the reason why many animators don't animate in 3D.
If Caligari jumps that hurdle, TrueSpace will automatically become the only 3D application that character animators would actually enjoy using. Animators would wake up every morning with a smile, leaping from their beds, in a single bound, all the way to their couch or console, (before they've even had their morning cup of coffee), uttering a joyful sigh as they push the power button and start their day.
Or something very like that,
Greg Smith |
Post by Woodclock // Oct 13, 2008, 1:35pm
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Woodclock
Total Posts: 9
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Mr. Bones:
Please see the edited version of my post, above, that includes a very interesting link at the bottom of the message.
Oh well, here is the link again:
http://www.kunzhou.net/
Yes, bricks without straw - it's time.
Greg Smith |
Post by transient // Oct 13, 2008, 2:59pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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What do I mean? Hmmm...I guess the easiest way to describe it would be this: Take Hash "Animation:Master"...now make tS do this with poly's.
I've read many good things about this app, and for 50 bucks a year it's a steal. I thought that you could export bvh files with hash, which could be used in 7.6, but I may be wrong. |
Post by J90 // Oct 14, 2008, 7:33pm
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J90
Total Posts: 107
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Unfortunately it is 79.99 USD per year now :(
Yes it does export .bvh files.
I am not sure how it would work though. |
Post by TomG // Oct 16, 2008, 7:21am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Not to sidetrack from an important issue on animation tools, but this is not th reason people aren't signing up on the forums. The reason is that "people don't sign up on forums" :)
This has always been the case, only a very small percentage of users who purchased ever used to sign up - when people have not invested cash in the tool, that percentage goes down.
So despite the growth in tS owners, we see only a tiny reflection of that here in the forums. And now, back to the questions on animation!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by mrbones // Oct 16, 2008, 8:25am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Hi TomG,
He is right to a certain degree..
With over 3 million downloads of the TrueSPace Free software to date, their should be more than 290 active members (and shrinking) on the TrueSpace user forum,
The real reason that there is not more people on this forum is that this forum is somewhat a hassle to sign up to, A serial number is required and most people will not endure that kind of scrutiny just to sign up to a forum.
I have had customers of mine that have complained about the sign up process at this forum,
Here is the message they have received after attempting to join our community forum, and I quote...
"thank you for contacting us.
The trueSpace forums are intended for users of trueSpace product. Your registration is checked against those who registered trueSpace7.6 and also against existing customer database. If no match is found then the registration is not allowed. Best advice is to visit download and register trueSpace7.6: http://cart1.caligari.com/web/Truespacemainreg.aspx (select new customer). Once you have done this, use same full name and email address when you register (again) for the trueSpace forums. This way I find a match and can approve your registration.
Hope this is helpful."
I think this is a bit offputting to a potential new user of TrueSpace, Dont you? I suggest relaxing the requirements or making registration to community forum mandatory for downloading the FREE software. Somewhere in the middle is much to ambiguious for those who are interested in TrueSpace. IMHO
Not to sidetrack from an important issue on animation tools, but this is not th reason people aren't signing up on the forums. The reason is that "people don't sign up on forums" :)
This has always been the case, only a very small percentage of users who purchased ever used to sign up - when people have not invested cash in the tool, that percentage goes down.
So despite the growth in tS owners, we see only a tiny reflection of that here in the forums. And now, back to the questions on animation!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by TomG // Oct 16, 2008, 8:44am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Thing is we need to validate sign ups to stop spam bots getting in, a major problem we had where one of our staff ended up spending all his time deleting the porn sites, viagras and other such rubbish that got posted. We also had the problems of flamers, registering simply to cause grief.
The only manageable solution was to validate each sign up as genuine, which requires a registration for the software. At present it's not possible to tie the forums in to the registration to automatically create the registration, so we have to go this route (since we can't just open the doors to unvalidated sign ups).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by mrbones // Oct 17, 2008, 5:45am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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TomG,
Can you please rephrase your answer, I really dont understand your response.
When an unregistered person visits our community forum, all the threads appear locked.
Is that really nessecary? You could set posting limits via permissions.
And validation is easily handled as well.
Thing is we need to validate sign ups to stop spam bots getting in, a major problem we had where one of our staff ended up spending all his time deleting the porn sites, viagras and other such rubbish that got posted. We also had the problems of flamers, registering simply to cause grief.
The only manageable solution was to validate each sign up as genuine, which requires a registration for the software. At present it's not possible to tie the forums in to the registration to automatically create the registration, so we have to go this route (since we can't just open the doors to unvalidated sign ups).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by TomG // Oct 17, 2008, 5:52am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hello MrBones,
I am not entering into a discussion on the ins and outs of our various registration systems, and in the internal business of the company, here on the forums.
We have selected the best process for the systems we have in place (the inner workings of which people outside the company are of course not aware of). You can be assured we have chosen the easiest mechanism we can that also prevents the issues I was describing.
Best regards!
Tom |
Post by Woodclock // Oct 18, 2008, 4:21am
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Woodclock
Total Posts: 9
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Mr. Grimes & Mr. Bones:
Well, if the reason people aren't participating in the TrueSpace forum, after downloading and trying out the program, is that they don't want to bother with registration procedures, (being too tedious or difficult), and Caligari doesn't feel the need to make it any easier - then I guess Caligari is getting the result it desires.
Greg Smith |
Post by noko // Oct 18, 2008, 1:27pm
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noko
Total Posts: 684
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Thread is somewhat misleading with title. What I get so far is that tS is easy to understand and to rig but is hard to get expected result once done. There are so many aspects to animating a character which if some are not quite there it stops a successful completion of an animation project. Would be more helpful to hear the stop points for a given project. I know W!zard has done this with dragon animation which shows limitation of IK system with 80 bones.
As for why not more people are registering? I would think it would be various reasons, one maybe it is more cumbersome then other forums ( I don't believe that, more like no motivation for some folks, maybe a killer animation or something will drive more people to join because it is excitting). Not enough incentive to overcome any barriers including regististration tS use before joining. So in short if someone really thought joining the forum would be awesome, I see no major stops in someone doing that with current policy. |
Post by Steinie // Oct 18, 2008, 4:18pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Well I heard through the grapevine that of the 1,332,542,878 people living in China only 2999737 people downloaded trueSpace 7.6. They were more involved with their Olympics and didn't have time to register here. That leaves 263 active members...who are not very fit, likes to eat Cheetos, don't use pinyin keyboards and tend to think in other dimensions...so that explains Everything!:rolleyes:
Well it's a theory... |
Post by mrbones // Oct 19, 2008, 6:52am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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The rejection registration letter calisoft sends you does mention that you need to download TrueSpace 7.6 free and register it before joining this forum.
Its not because "they dont sign up" :rolleyes: was my only point.
So in short if someone really thought joining the forum would be awesome, I see no major stops in someone doing that with current policy. |
Post by noko // Oct 19, 2008, 9:08pm
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noko
Total Posts: 684
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Yes, which for me kinda makes sense as in forums are a tS user club space to enjoy. Not for anyone who wants to chatter, more specific to tS and tS users in general. I would think more will join if more saw an advantage in joining was my point. Not saying anything against tS, many forums have lookers who learn alot, actually use the software or hardware and never join. So membership doesn't always mean the guest are not enjoying and coming back often and finding the site useful. Just that participation is not needed from their standpoint. |
Post by transient // Oct 19, 2008, 9:56pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I pretty much agree with everything noko said. I think Caligari's rules are fine, the visitors forum is available to anyone who can't be bothered to register, anyway. |
Post by mrbones // Oct 20, 2008, 6:24am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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I think Caligari rules are fine too.
It was the response to the question, I had a problem with.
I pretty much agree with everything noko said. I think Caligari's rules are fine, the visitors forum is available to anyone who can't be bothered to register, anyway. |
Post by headwax // Oct 20, 2008, 4:13pm
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headwax
Total Posts: 38
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Woodclock wrote:
I actually thought, that by now, many more "visitors" would be present on a daily basis, over here at the TrueSpace forums. I think I know the reason that there have been fewer than expected:
Hi, I'm one of the new users who downloaded Truespace free. Having worked with Carrara for six months and finding how buggy it was, the first thing I did was post a thread here entitled "What's wrong with Truespace?" to find out if everyone was happy. All the responses were positive. :)
Now I've been working with Truespace for a while and trying to like it, these are my reactions - which bare directly on Woodclock's observation.
Truespace offers a multitude of free tutorials - which is fantastic. Except not many of them are related to the new version. This poor old fact will lose a majority of new users.
The most recommended tutorial is the organics course. Which is fantastic. I have done it a few times. BUT the major hurdle in this course is that the instructuions for getting your reference image in don't work for truepsace 7.6. Of course if you hunt you'll find the work aroun on this forum.
As soon as people get to a hurdle like this you'll find a lot of people don't bother perservering. It stopped me the first time I tried to learn truespace.
The last thing is the LE. The programs I have used (anim8or and Carrara) so far offer a vertical linear hierachial structure which compared to LE is simple and uncluttered. (simialr to that found in Workspace side in animation editor). Anyone coming from these programs will have difficulty.
The other thing is: the move from modfel side to workspace side is confusing for most new users till they figure out what is going on. And to do that they need to persist.
These are a few humps that might explain why with a few million downloads people still aren't using the product. To get someone to use something they got for nothing you have to oil their way...
my tuupence worth
cheerios
headwax :) |
Post by saigoel // Oct 21, 2008, 8:43am
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saigoel
Total Posts: 40
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headwax has a point about the videos...
you would expect for such a release (free software) to show videos specially made for the new version--at least...
i remember my first experience in 3D started with truespace 3.2, which i learned watching those wonderful videos hosted by Ian Dale at kidzonline.com, those videos were produced specifically for 3.2...there`s no doubt that appropiate videos make a difference when picking up a new software;)
>David Ramirez Ch. |
Post by Steinie // Oct 21, 2008, 9:35am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Just imagine how the people who bought the software felt...(7.0-7.5):rolleyes: |
Post by headwax // Oct 21, 2008, 10:53am
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headwax
Total Posts: 38
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Hello
certainly not complaining about the free software!
Saying between the lines that someone who paid eg $2000 for software will have more motivation to learn it that someone who downloaded for (free) curiosity in their spare time at work (as an eg).
Sorry to go off topic. |
Post by Nez // Oct 21, 2008, 10:14pm
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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Well, don't want to cause trouble but I think it' a bit much to be complaining that the videos aren't fully up to date when they've just released hundred's of pounds/dollars of software for free, plus all the video courses (which you previously had to puirchase too). Why should they go to all the effort to re-produce all the videos too unless they charge for them? Much of what they show will still be applicable, even if you have to look around a bit more to find the relevant icon etc. Specific problems can be brought to the forums and will probably be answered. Plus - do you want them to be wasting time on doing new vids or working on the patch...?
I'm still massively grateful for the free release - there's no way financially I could have moved up from ts5, so it was like Christmas come early for me. I still haven't downloaded all the vids as there's so much for free and I don;t want to fry my mum's broadband limit, so I'm spreading it over several months...
Not going to go into 'motivation' - I'm sure W!zard would like to debate with you on whether people who pay lots of money for software are more motivated than those of us who don't...:D |
Post by headwax // Oct 21, 2008, 10:45pm
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headwax
Total Posts: 38
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Not complaining, merely giving you a rai·son d'ê·tre.
Personally I think the whole lot- videos and software- is amazing.
Anyway that's my tuppence as I said,
cheerios
;) |
Post by transient // Oct 21, 2008, 11:22pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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Well, don't want to cause trouble but I think it' a bit much to be complaining that the videos aren't fully up to date when they've just released hundred's of pounds/dollars of software for free, plus all the video courses (which you previously had to puirchase too).
The videos are good quality as well. It's not ideal to that they are from previous versions, but they're pretty easy to follow anyway. |
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