|
|
Future of Vray
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Future of Vray // Roundtable
Post by splinters // Nov 13, 2008, 12:36pm
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
I know many questions have been posed about new features and fixes but I am curious about Caligari's plans for Vray long term.
All Paks have been removed and the only product available to buy from Caligari is Vray. Given the 'assimilation' by MS I imagine that there would be more funding if indeed this was the way to go.
Is there an existing contract with the Vray people that needs to be honoured or are there long term plans to develop Vray into a more serious tool for the tS user?
I love Vray but find it limited and often use Dribble for fur or SSS. Unfortunately Dribble is still the only option for true displacement even though early versions of Vray engine supported it...but not the tS version. I realise tS features are not discussed until near release but can any details on the future of Vray be given?
I realise n |
Post by robert // Nov 13, 2008, 12:51pm
|
robert
Total Posts: 609
|
Yeah, I'm also curious. From the V-Ray site and other sources there are many amazing features not implemented. In fact a sizable list can be found here (http://www.chaosgroup.com/en/2/vray_features.html) and here (http://www.vray.us/index.shtml). |
Post by prodigy // Nov 13, 2008, 1:11pm
|
prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
|
Well seems im not the only one asking about Vray.. :rolleyes: |
Post by prodigy // Nov 13, 2008, 1:14pm
|
prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
|
**VRaySimbiontMtl material (allows rendering of DarkTree materials directly by V-Ray);
hooo my... |
Post by RAYMAN // Nov 13, 2008, 1:31pm
|
RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
|
Lightworks has some big improvements ... did we get them ?
I dont expect anything !:(
I would use Vray much more if we had the same features Vray for Max has !
Vray is fast and pretty good !
Its the way it is implemented into Ts that puts me off from using it more !
Even the render engine Vue has gets more attention.
Most of you know what I use.:D
This is beating a dead horse ! |
Post by splinters // Nov 13, 2008, 1:40pm
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Not sure it is Rayman..I never give up until I get told a big final NO! by the company themselves.
Prodigy, tell me more about the simbiont thing or were you simply joking?
Not a month goes by that the 3D World gallery is not populated by Vray renders...I am going to try and produce a piece of work worth entering into it but I wish Vray had more options...I find myself being inspired much more by Dribble nowadays...:o |
Post by robert // Nov 13, 2008, 1:41pm
|
robert
Total Posts: 609
|
He found it on one of the links I supplied.
Here is the extract:
New features:
Compatibility with 3ds Max 2009 and 3ds Max Design 2009
Support for animated deforming meshes to .vrmesh files and the VRayProxy object
Support for Lighting Analysis Overlay render effect in 3ds Max 2009
VRayIES light
VRaySimbiontMtl material (allows rendering of DarkTree materials directly by V-Ray) |
Post by prodigy // Nov 13, 2008, 1:45pm
|
prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
|
exactly Robert..
my problem con Dribble its only works in Model Side.. :( |
Post by splinters // Nov 13, 2008, 1:50pm
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
exactly Robert..
my problem con Dribble its only works in Model Side.. :(
For now maybe...fingers crossed eh? Hopefully someone can write a package to use LW as well...:o |
Post by RAYMAN // Nov 13, 2008, 2:20pm
|
RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
|
Not sure it is Rayman..I never give up until I get told a big final NO! by the company themselves.
Yes and this is against the policy of Caligari ! They dont talk about
future releases so your simply not getting your YES AND NO !;)
We are running in circles with that !
The nice thing about Simons plugin is that you can talk with him and he tells you whats up ....
The drawback of Dribble is not the model side only for me its the constant
changing of the render engine and its license scheme !
Thats not Simons fault ! Hes doing a good job ! |
Post by transient // Nov 13, 2008, 2:44pm
|
transient
Total Posts: 977
|
The drawback of Dribble is not the model side only for me its the constant changing of the render engine and its license scheme !
All you have to do is get a new license from nda every six months and put the license.dat in your 3delight file. And since when are new features a bad thing?:confused: :confused:
I agree that vray could be better, sun and sky are two glaring omissions, but it's still better than any of the freeware options I've tried. Ironically, the best renders being done in blender at the moment are in vray.
I think if Caligari want new users they would be crazy not to support vray and 3delight as much as they can. At the moment ts is the only 3d product out there I know of that supports both, if you don't include the maya vray beta.:) |
Post by RAYMAN // Nov 13, 2008, 3:03pm
|
RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
|
And since when are new features a bad thing?:confused: :confused:
New features arent.... who said that ?
Its that dribble doesnt work any more... and when it does again 3delight
changes....
About the freeware we are of different opinion and thats not new !
We had our discussions already ....;)
But I do expect much if I pay a lot of money ! ie . if I render glass I want it to look like it !
Peter |
Post by Steinie // Nov 13, 2008, 3:26pm
|
Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
|
Caligari hasn't even acknowledged that VRay will "continue" let alone be updated.
So far I've read Parva's messages about asking for features to deaf ears and Beta testers questioning if VRay will be updated. Not good signs to me.
Unlike trueSpace 7.6 were it included fixes and new tools. VRay had fixes but not one additional feature.
Maybe if they sell enough copies of VRay they'll decide to improve it. I'll believe it when I see it.
I even remember the days Roman use to come around here... |
Post by transient // Nov 13, 2008, 3:32pm
|
transient
Total Posts: 977
|
Not a month goes by that the 3D World gallery is not populated by Vray renders...
I think I'll consider that the last word. |
Post by nowherebrain // Nov 13, 2008, 5:48pm
|
nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
|
I wouldn't expect much in the way of processed renders, they are probably going to continue the RT rendering solution, as this is sorta their monopoly in the 3D world ATM. This is just a guess though.....oddly enough the only people this really could serve are game devs. and ts is not really geared that way...the people that would truly take advantage or RT are the most ignored IMO. I work both sides of the house(game dev/processed renderings) I can definitely say that tS if it were actually capable is more geared for movies/animation....and in actuality it is only capable of product mock ups.
if you don't believe me imagine(or even try)to create something as old as toy story, or the original SuperMari64 ....aint gonna happen.
I like both renderers(V-ray/Lightworks)...too bad we will never get(as far as I can tell) lightworks GI/FG or fully integrated V-ray(all features that is).
If I were Roman I would hide too. |
Post by transient // Nov 13, 2008, 6:55pm
|
transient
Total Posts: 977
|
3d visualization is a worthy market on it's own. Real-time isn't just for games anymore.
The problem for me is that truespace's position in this field is somewhat nebulous. Quest and dx studio both have established outputs (.exe and the web), where truespace relies on the the trueplay player, which at the moment doesn't even exist.
I think that truespace could be an excellent real-time program, the physics and procedural animation tools are top knotch already, but it's the potential applications that I don't quite get. Why no exe? What's the deal with virtual earth?
I'm sure we'll find out in due course, but I'm not a patient person by nature.:D
I can definitely say that tS if it were actually capable is more geared for movies/animation....and in actuality it is only capable of product mock ups.
Really blender has nothing to crow about when it come to pro use, except for it's own internal productions. I use both programs and much prefer truespace, but lets face it, neither of these programs is houdini, or ever will be. That's not really an issue, as 99 percent of people do illustration/ viz work or indi games with non-production apps (you may as well say non-autodesk apps), so it's all just theory. Truespace is an excellent illustration tool, as is Blender, I don't really think that's such a bad thing.:) |
Post by nowherebrain // Nov 14, 2008, 10:09am
|
nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
|
I like tS more than blender, but when it comes down to it, I can finish a product in blender. If I cannot finish a project I realize it much faster than with tS(I guess that is a plus???). Anyway, just an opinion....blah blah blah. |
Post by jayr // Nov 14, 2008, 10:14am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
I know how you feel Nowherebrain, at the moment TS has lots of potential but it's still too unrefined. some features like the hair feel more like gestures rather than real features to draw in professional users.
Having said that, i love modeling in it, it's just so easy. Even if i end up buying other software to animate or render in i think i'll be using TS for modeling for a long time yet. |
Post by Emmanuel // Nov 14, 2008, 11:40pm
|
Emmanuel
Total Posts: 439
|
I think that truespace could be an excellent real-time program, the physics and procedural animation tools are top knotch already, but it's the potential applications that I don't quite get. Why no exe? What's the deal with virtual earth?
I think that the Virtual Earth thing could be the more obvious sign of deep changes in the relationship nature between Caligari and trueSpace users.
TrueSpace being free for the users, the development of new tools is not relative to users demand any more. The software development is now guided by Microsoft aims, which may be different from users wishes.
If Microsoft's plan for trueSpace is to become a Virtual Earth or a multi-users 3D environment content edtition program, then trueSpace-as-an-offline-illustration-&-animation-program is dead.
This would signify no more V-Ray nor Lighworks development...:mad:
Now, I may be wrong though. Since we don't know the terms of Caligari and Microsoft agreement, we could figure that Caligari has kept some degrees of freedom and that Microsoft financial support does not cover all the apects of the company. Therefore future is still open to any path. :)
After all, in Sketchup's logo you can see Google more than Sketchup :
http://sketchup.google.com/intl/fr/images/sketchup_logo.gif
And I have never seen any Microsoft mark on Caligari website... nor any logo like the one below by the way :p : |
Post by parva // Nov 15, 2008, 12:15am
|
parva
Total Posts: 822
|
TrueSpace being free for the users, the development of new tools is not relative to users demand any more. The software development is now guided by Microsoft aims, which may be different from users wishes.
If Microsoft's plan for trueSpace is to become a Virtual Earth or a multi-users 3D environment content edtition program, then trueSpace-as-an-offline-illustration-&-animation-program is dead.
This would signify no more V-Ray nor Lighworks development...:mad:
...Therefore future is still open to any path. :)
definitivly. I can just second that.
Btw. trueSpace could have all render engines that are available out there.
Vray, Mental etc.. It needs just 1. enough people who would buy it and 2. developers who work on it.
Now that tS is free I guess we can't imagine that everything will be done by Caligari Devs.
The newer render engines have plugins created directly by the engine developers
but they need a specific amount of people who would use it.
In the case of truespace there are too less people (unfortunatly).
At least that is what I got as response with render engine devs. |
Post by robert // Nov 15, 2008, 4:59am
|
robert
Total Posts: 609
|
...The newer render engines have plugins created directly by the engine developers
but they need a specific amount of people who would use it.
In the case of truespace there are too less people (unfortunatly).
At least that is what I got as response with render engine devs.
That's definitely changing now, with tS being free I've seen the number of forum posts increase substantially, but that's just my opinion.;) |
Post by splinters // Nov 15, 2008, 7:02am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
That's definitely changing now, with tS being free I've seen the number of forum posts increase substantially, but that's just my opinion.;)
However, tS ownership (being free) is unlikely to be proportional to Vray ownership as it a) costs money and b) is optional.
That is the concern; not the uptake of tS but the future of Vray...:o |
Post by spyfrog // Nov 16, 2008, 1:11pm
|
spyfrog
Total Posts: 181
|
I wouldn't hold my breath for either Vray or Lightworks update.
My guess is that TS 7x is the last version that even has offline renders - Caligari seam bent on going for the deadbeat idea of the 3D web, something that already have been killed several times with Vrml and other techniques. :(
That MS bought Caligari and put them under the Virtual Earth division tells me what we can except - if they had been put on any of the program making devision (Office division for instance) we could have excepted that it would continue as it have been, with offline renders and the whole lot. Now, however, it is going to become some kind of VE / "virtual web" development tool. The sad thing is that the 3D web has already been tried and failed miserably, I don't see any reason for it to succeed this time either.
I hope that I am proved wrong. However, Caligaris silence is a sign that they know we wont like the news. I know, you say that it is Caligaris policy to don't talk about future releases. However, that ain't Microsofts style. They talk, talk, talk and hype there releases... except when there is something unwanted. Since MS now owns Caligari, I except that their market policies also applies to Caligari, which makes their silence suspicious. Silence from a MS company is never a good sign. |
Post by jayr // Nov 16, 2008, 1:16pm
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
I wouldn't hold my breath for either Vray or Lightworks update.
My guess is that TS 7x is the last version that even has offline renders - Caligari seam bent on going for the deadbeat idea of the 3D web, something that already have been killed several times with Vrml and other techniques. :(
That MS bought Caligari and put them under the Virtual Earth division tells me what we can except - if they had been put on any of the program making devision (Office division for instance) we could have excepted that it would continue as it have been, with offline renders and the whole lot. Now, however, it is going to become some kind of VE / "virtual web" development tool. The sad thing is that the 3D web has already been tried and failed miserably, I don't see any reason for it to succeed this time either.
I hope that I am proved wrong. However, Caligaris silence is a sign that they know we wont like the news. I know, you say that it is Caligaris policy to don't talk about future releases. However, that ain't Microsofts style. They talk, talk, talk and hype there releases... except when there is something unwanted. Since MS now owns Caligari, I except that their market policies also applies to Caligari, which makes their silence suspicious. Silence from a MS company is never a good sign.
That's what i've been worried about too. Even a small confirmation like "lightworks will make it across the bridge" would do a lot to boost my confidence in the future direction of truespace, but they seem reluctant even to say that that is their intention, nevermind setting a time scale. |
Post by nowherebrain // Nov 16, 2008, 4:44pm
|
nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
|
I agree to an extent with you about their crappy 3d web idea, or any RT junk...looks good(not compared to a processed render)but has no use. |
Post by transient // Nov 16, 2008, 6:15pm
|
transient
Total Posts: 977
|
http://quest3d.com/
http://www.dxstudio.com/
http://www.demicron.com/index.html
Real-time 3d is alive and well, however it's a niche industry at the moment. People do this for a living, so it's not useless by any means. I agree that the brave new world stuff is currently fantasy, but this is still potentially a good thing for truespace.
I still think if Caligari want people to move to real-time, getting them interested in the rendering side of truespace first would be smart. They also risk alieneating some of the best artists here if they drop vray.
Also, I think expecting Caligari to come clean about their intentions for the future of truespace is a dead horse, but flog if you must, I would love to know what's coming as well.;) |
Post by Nez // Nov 17, 2008, 1:07am
|
Nez
Total Posts: 1102
|
[url]
I still think if Caligari want people to move to real-time, getting them interested in the rendering side of truespace first would be smart. They also risk alieneating some of the best artists here if they drop vray. and Lightworks.... (not speaking of myself of course, but MadMouse, Splinters and others still use LW extensively...)
It's certainly a bit tense still round here! It's a tricky position, undoubtedly, as there's almost certainly a portion of the tS userbase that don't really want to see the model-side architecture go or at least, the modelside tools, render engines plug-ins, etc plus what apparently is a signifcantly easier workflow for certain types of work at least.... The amount of work/tools etc that appears to have gone into making the workspace useable on a day to day basis with add-ons, widgets etc is frankly unsettling for those if us who've been living with the old architecture for years. (well, I'm speaking for myself anyway).
I don't doubt that workspace has much to offer, but it sounds a long way from being finished, or at least incapable of meeting the needs of a lot of us at the moment. Maybe the next version will be far easier/cleaner/more complete, but who knows...?
Personally I like LW and hope it stays - I'm sure I'd like VRay too, but can't afford it right now, but like others, I'd be very sad to see tS lose a serious offline rendering capability. There's plenty of us who aren't specifically interested in realtime: even when I could see how it might be useful for me personally, I don't see a practical way of sharing the results.... |
Post by Steinie // Nov 17, 2008, 2:55am
|
Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
|
- I'm sure I'd like VRay too, but can't afford it right now, but like others, I'd be very sad to see tS lose a serious offline rendering capability.
Steinie Quick Facts:
Not many entries to Virtual Earth. (no winner this month)
You are really good at Architecture.
Flavio Adriani probably already has VRay.
Go get it!!! It's an easy dangling apple just waiting for YOU.;)
OK back to the main focus of this thread..."VRay is Dead":p |
Post by Emmanuel // Nov 17, 2008, 3:01am
|
Emmanuel
Total Posts: 439
|
Real-time 3d is alive and well, however it's a niche industry at the moment. People do this for a living, so it's not useless by any means. I agree that the brave new world stuff is currently fantasy, but this is still potentially a good thing for truespace.
True.
Problem is that trueSpace's real-time potential is -professionally- not fully exploitable yet.
Each time I sold a real-time presentation to some clients for a show, they asked me to be present at the show and to operate the software/navigation from my computer -simply because they are afraid of possible problems at :
- installation
- scene loading
- settings the best display options according to hardware configuration
- navigation (for example, French's keyboard is AZERTY and truePlay is QWERTY by default so you need to remap the keys at every session!)
Each of these potential issues that are 100% about EASE OF USE must be adressed ASAP.
In some way, 3Dexplorer (http://www.3dexplorer.it/) -an 8 years old plugin- is still preferable to truePlay if you need to provide your client with a simple "clic and view" tool to explore a 3D scene.
An option to create, from trueSpace, a custom truePlay executable with preloaded scene and custom user interface SHOULD BE ON TOP OF THE TODO LIST !
Honestly, in the list below, what is your preference :
- to publish a free model on Virtual Earth,
- to sell a couple of 50$ models to some hobbyists via Turbosquid's Tentacle,
- or to sell a 1000$ real-time standalone scene to an architect's client,
hum ?
So, until we get a proper Real-time export tool that works at work, the main way to make money with trueSpace is to use its Offline renderers. Which are Lightworks, V-Ray, and Dribble.
If there is no future for V-Ray nor Lightworks, then... trueSpace puts itself out of the game. |
Post by Nez // Nov 17, 2008, 3:09am
|
Nez
Total Posts: 1102
|
Steinie Quick Fact:
Not many entries to Virtual Earth. (no winner this month)
You are really good at Architecture.
Flavio Adriani probably already has VRay.
Go get it!!! It's an easy dangling apple just waiting for YOU.;)
Thanks for the compliment Steinie - the irony is that, much as I hate the idea of working in workspace, I really would attempt to produce some VE models if I could, as I agree that this currently remains my best chance of getting VRay - but I currently can't use the workspace side at all due to hardware limitations! I've not been through all the necessary tutorials yet, but I was under the impression that I could only do the necessary texturing and exporting from the workspace? (even if I did all my modelling as normal and crossed the bridge to finish...) |
|
