|
|
A few questions about Truespace
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
A few questions about Truespace // Roundtable
Post by DigitalEternal // Nov 28, 2008, 7:19am
|
DigitalEternal
Total Posts: 8
|
Hi Guys,
So im a max user but I want to create a feature length movie and cant afford the rediculously over priced commercial 3ds lisence so I need to find a free alternative that will do the job. I have narowed it down to truespace and blender.
I have a few questions about truespace that i was wondering if you could answer for me, I want to make a desicion on which program I will use before i get into learning it as thats a long process.
First, do you really need the vray renderer? ive found in max you can do everything vray can without it so its kind of pointless, also are there other components of truespace that you need to really make it functional? for example:
in the animating a character tutorial the artist uses a plugin called kakaphone(or something like that) is this plugin included with truespace, or do you have to buy it(the plugin section of the site is non-existent)
Also, from the feature overview on the site it makes it seem as though lipsync is automatic now(you make your visems and then run the audio file and it will be automatically animated) but in the course they used the painstakingly long manual method or lipsync, is this sitll thesame or has it been automated now?
Ive watched a couple tutorials, such as the modeling a character course and some fo them are done in a old version of truespace so its hard to guage the capabilities of the latest release
Judging from the feautre overviews it seems as though animating with truespace is much easier then blender, is this really the case?
Are there more plugins or third party addons that you need to achive the results seen in the galleries?
and lastly is there any more development being made for truespace or is 7.6 the last release that there will be?
Any other insights or opinions on truespace vs blender would be greatly appriciated.
Thank you for your time, sorry about the long message and thank you for your help in advance. |
Post by RorrKonn // Nov 28, 2008, 10:12am
|
RorrKonn
Total Posts: 43
|
If you want to make a realistic 3D movie.like final fantasy spirits with in.
Max or me personally I would use XSI,C4D.
The most affordable of the High End app's is Lightwave http://www.newtek.com/
If one person made every thing for the movie.
Would take one person about 50 years to make, give or take a decade.
You could make a gameish looking movie in tS7.6 real-time.
If one person made every thing for the movie
Take one person about 3 years to make, give or take a year.
RorrKonn
http://64.234.196.28/ |
Post by jamesmc // Nov 28, 2008, 10:22am
|
jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
|
Actually, with good compositing software, you can make great movies from just about any 2D or 3D software program with enough imagination and time.
After Effects, Final Cut Pro, Sony, etc. have good compositing capabilities, effects and video editing. |
Post by mrbones // Nov 28, 2008, 10:25am
|
mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
|
I admire your ambition:)
A Feature Length movie? Do you know how many frames that is?
It will be quite a chore for any type of animation or movie software.
Start with a five minute short film, is my advice.
Cheers |
Post by DigitalEternal // Nov 28, 2008, 10:27am
|
DigitalEternal
Total Posts: 8
|
Trust me im not going for a ff style movie, not only is that too much but my computer could never hack it.
Im making a comedy, more like a disney/dreamworks style like madagascar and what have you, pretty simple graphics but they suit the genre well, im estimating once i choose a program and become familiar with it that it will take me in the neighborhood of a year to finish it.
I just cant decide if i want to proceed in ts7 or in blender, they both have pro's and cons, the UI's of both annoy me, blender with its 2 billion keyboard shortcuts and ts with its constant use of flyout menu's
What i need to figure out is which one will be the most effective and the most effecient
you guys wouldnt know the answers to any of my questions above would you?
Thanks for the help guys |
Post by mrbones // Nov 28, 2008, 10:30am
|
mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
|
TrueSPace is very good at rendering realtime animations.
Check Jhowells You tube page.
http://www.youtube.com/user/growthweb
IT shows that he has rendered hundreds of thousands of frames.
:o
Trust me im not going for a ff style movie, not only is that too much but my computer could never hack it.
Im making a comedy, more like a disney/dreamworks style like madagascar and what have you, pretty simple graphics but they suit the genre well.
I just cant decide if i want to proceed in ts7 or in blender, they both have pro's and cons, the UI's of both annoy me, blender with its 2 billion keyboard shortcuts and ts with its constant use of flyout menu's
What i need to figure out is which one will be the most effective and the most effecient
you guys wouldnt know the answers to any of my questions above would you?
Thanks for the help guys |
Post by RorrKonn // Nov 28, 2008, 10:38am
|
RorrKonn
Total Posts: 43
|
Trust me im not going for a ff style movie, not only is that too much but my computer could never hack it.
Im making a comedy, more like a disney/dreamworks style like madagascar and what have you, pretty simple graphics but they suit the genre well, im estimating once i choose a program and become familiar with it that it will take me in the neighborhood of a year to finish it.
I just cant decide if i want to proceed in ts7 or in blender, they both have pro's and cons, the UI's of both annoy me, blender with its 2 billion keyboard shortcuts and ts with its constant use of flyout menu's
What i need to figure out is which one will be the most effective and the most effecient
you guys wouldnt know the answers to any of my questions above would you?
Thanks for the help guys
Me personally.
Max vs C4D both have pros cons I just like C4D better.
tS vs Blender both have pros cons I just like tS better.
This is just a personal thing you half to decide. |
Post by prodigy // Nov 28, 2008, 10:38am
|
prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
|
Welcome DigitalEternal :D
Truespace is released with a free render engine (Lightworks) but, the bad news is only can render from model side (old side) the new side has no other render engine than Vray or realtime rendering that is a good option too. Other cheap option is render using Dribble (check my signature for further information) with dribble you can render using Renderman RE but for the moment only on model side..
In other hand, blender.. The list of features is amazing and there's a few movies created with blender. Has liquids, particles, cloth, muscles, hairs are only a few.. BUT (and the worst of all).. the User interface is something imposible (at least for me..)
All depends on your expectatives. Im sure you can make a preaty nice movie using truespace or blender all depends on your skills and how you feel with the apps.
Keep in touch!! |
Post by RichLevy // Nov 28, 2008, 12:31pm
|
RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
|
If I wanted to do a short, and I needed to decide on what program to use...
This would be my check list:
What style was I after?
Animae, cartoon 50's and 60's, cartoon animation 80's 90's... realistic line art
What types of special effects would I need?
Smoke, fire, sun rays, water, grass, explosions, stars, motion blur
Do I need fancy camera effects?
camera mapping, zooming, panning, fly thrus/bys, canera shake
What type of character animation do I need to do
Do the rigs range in the simple area, or are they complicated, can I use sub rigs, Can I easily have objects hanging onto my character, will I be able to release and pick up objects easily. Will my characters be mainly mocap motions (such as BVH) or do I plan to do lots of hand editing...
Will I want to be doing lots of motion blending...
Blood, earth quakes, water, floods, realistic motion, cameras, can the cameras be set up as real cameras do? Is there lots of community activity, are there tuto0rials available that cover all of the new features in the program. When I get stuck, are there people I can get in touch with to help me (friends and neighbors, colleagues, online communities)
I can really go on much further than this, it is only the tip of the iceberg. If you plan on doing this commercially... I might think about sticking with what you have and know... do you really want to relearn another package?
Any software can be made to satisfy your needs. Me, I would use a combination of 2D and 3D, that's what I do now. After Effects, PhotoshopCS3E, Premiere CS3, TS, Houdini (an awesome particles and animation system)...
In the end, there really is no right answer, TS can do what you suggest, it may or may not do it the way that you want it too. That is the you factor...
It's free, and you should only need a week or 2 to get a very good feel for whether or not TS is capable of delivering what you need.
Rich
{edit] I must be right, my conclussion was almost the same as Prodigy :D, great minds copy from other great minds |
Post by spyfrog // Nov 28, 2008, 1:11pm
|
spyfrog
Total Posts: 181
|
and lastly is there any more development being made for truespace or is 7.6 the last release that there will be?
Any other insights or opinions on truespace vs blender would be greatly appriciated.
My suggestion - go with Blender. I personally think Blender has the worst UI ever devised (or perhaps it is an inspired work of pure evil, I don't know) so I would like to recommend Truespace.
However - you want to do a whole feature lenght movie. So you are looking for several years of work. You wounder if 7.6 is the last release of Truespace - we all wounder that. The simple answer is that Caligari is doing a very lousy job right now at telling us the future of the software. Will TS become a frontend for Virtual Earth? Will it remain a 3D software? Caligari isn't really telling.
So this is why I recommend Blender - you know that Blender will still be there in 3 years. Since it is open source, it can't be killed. It will continue to exists in some form. So since your project is so long, the UI will probably be a small obstacle. What you need is security that your software will remain - and frankly Truespace isn't that choice now. If you decide to use TS, think of TS 7.6 as the only sure thing that you know - can you do it with that application? Is it enough? If you are unsecure about this, go with Blender - you know that it will evolve. With TS you know nothing of the future (thanks for that policy, Caligari). |
Post by RAYMAN // Nov 28, 2008, 1:20pm
|
RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
|
Dont foreget even if you decide to use Truespace as the program
of your choice you will have some parts of Blender that you can use
without having to learn the full program .;)
There are some other simple to use programs out there that are free
and dont rule them out !
If you can draw then you can easily work with Sketchup too !
I have a thread here how to use the free version with Ts.
I also love to do nurbs modeling and a very good and not expensive program is Moi 3d..... thats very easy to learn and works great with TS.
Another very good renderer that is free and is a standalone with lots of free
shaders and textures is Kerkythea .
So there is lots of cheap or free programs out there that are very easy to learn and use ...some all together easier then Blender alone...
Peter |
Post by frootee // Nov 28, 2008, 2:14pm
|
frootee
Total Posts: 2667
|
If you choose to use Blender for most of the work, you may have the blender foundation as a resource as well. A few movies have been made with blender, and the DVDs are available for purchase. I think the DVDs include a 'how it was made' feature as well.
Regarding the interface, just for fun, do a search on 'truespace' on the blender forums. Some users there complain about the truespace interface. Meanwhile, truespace users have the same issues with the blender interface. Basically, it just depends on which interface you get familiar with first. :)
I use at least a small portion of blender as well. It took me a little practice but now I know how to navigate around the blender interface; at least, the portions which I currently need.
There have been no full length (1.5 - 2 hour) features made using truespace as the main platform. However, if you check out the South Park Reloaded course, you will see how one person used 6.6 to make an animated short using truespace 6.6.
Froo |
Post by Finis // Nov 28, 2008, 2:55pm
|
Finis
Total Posts: 386
|
If you want to use characters like people or animals then you will want to follow Steinie's thread here http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=7193 . He is trying to use TS 7.6 Workspace side only to animate a character.
TS currently has two parts workspace (TS 7.6) and model (TS 6.6). TS is transitioning from the old methods and interface to the workspace so someday there will be no model side.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about model side = TS 6.6. |
Post by transient // Nov 28, 2008, 3:15pm
|
transient
Total Posts: 977
|
So this is why I recommend Blender - you know that Blender will still be there in 3 years. Since it is open source, it can't be killed.
Blender nearly bit the dust a few years ago, and was only saved by a wave of last minute panic donations to the blender foundation. Perhaps this is one reason why Blender isn't making big moves in the production scene despite it's growing reputation as a giant-killer. Before you attack me I like Blender (although it would never be my primary app), I'm just pointing out an unfortunate truth.
The grass is always greener, just ask XSI users.;)
Someone has already made a feature length animation using truespace, maybe they would be the ones to talk to. |
Post by frootee // Nov 28, 2008, 3:30pm
|
frootee
Total Posts: 2667
|
I did not know that transient. Who made a feature length show using truespace?
thanks
Froo |
Post by transient // Nov 28, 2008, 4:00pm
|
transient
Total Posts: 977
|
Marcel, I think.... not parva, the other one.;) |
Post by RAYMAN // Nov 28, 2008, 4:49pm
|
RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
|
If I´m not wrong and my old head doesnt play tricks on me its
this nice little movie
http://www.crea-vision.fr/html/animations/s-pack.htm
Hope I can find where he showed it to us here in the forum
Its french and called "Sonde"
Heres another link:
http://www.crea-vision.fr/html/contacts/presse-caligari.htm |
Post by DigitalEternal // Nov 29, 2008, 4:14am
|
DigitalEternal
Total Posts: 8
|
Thanks for all your imput guys,
Im still not quite sure which to choose, i wish the vray renderer wa free for this, the realtime seems decent but it lacks something, from what i can tell of that youtube page it really isnt bad but there is just a certain something missing, you know what i mean?
Ive been playing around with blender and the UI is horrid, i cant stand it, i wish they would put their pride asside and give blender the option of having a proper ui, its a great program but man that ui kills it.
The other problem that im finding with blender is that the tutorials are all for old versions and there is no consise documentation or educational material for all the stuff they keep adding.
Wish i could take blender and truespace and mash them together lol |
Post by jhowell // Nov 29, 2008, 5:44am
|
jhowell
Total Posts: 400
|
Years ago there were a few pretty incredible small movies made with older versions of Truespace. And you know if blender can make this incredible movie http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/index.php/trailer-page/ than so can Truespace. I love Truespace more than anything because its visual realtime feedback and user interface just feels right to ME and is so much fun. I think now that many many more people are coming on to Truespace (because its free!) we are going to get some creative talent out there. Just like you see with blender.
SOME OF MY PLAYING AROUND FUN STUFF WITH TRUESPACE 7.5 and 7.6
http://blip.tv/file/1258845/ Muscle guy swinging on pole. In just minutes with Truespace 7.6.
http://blip.tv/file/1247292/ Truespace character Bobby playing with fire!
http://blip.tv/file/1047509/ Our Truespace TANK GIRL! 11000 frames in 8 minutes.
http://blip.tv/file/1257915/ 4 Muscle Guys beating each other up. Real time workspace rendered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LPx27kqKz8 18 Truespace 7.5 7.6 little clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xU8pClOMfg Big city scene. Lots of polys. Real time workspace view rendered!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3dere396sI Another city scene. Rendered in a few minutes real time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBpwhi73nj4 Real time physics is just too easy in Truespace 7.6. City Scene Fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0GobHb3Fk Solder guy pushing a truck. Real time physics and display rendered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h-Cqlt0G_U Muscle guy pushing a tree. Real time physics and display rendered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsv0KsmGkZ0 Postman character kicking cans on table. Real time physics and display.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgEHqC7mbA Skeleton character swinging sword using particle illusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TyKER5yT3M A little chromakey green screening with Truespace 7.5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFkzn4zKdFo More chromakey green screening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX18vb_oA5Y Postman watching TV.
http://blip.tv/file/1490397/ MotionBuilder to Truespace. Just a few minutes to do.
http://blip.tv/file/865095/ 4000 Frames in few minutes. Luv that Workspace render to file!
http://blip.tv/file/1185748/ Silly cowboy kicking fire ring on to our Truespace Aaardvark character.
http://blip.tv/file/976253/ Real time workspace rendered bloom is cool! A little nudity.
http://blip.tv/file/980688/ Real time physics just takes minutes in Truespace 7.6.
http://blip.tv/file/1085049/ Silly postman dancing in a cage.
Truespace is just plain FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://4webs.biz/truespacestuff/SEPT123guysfightingposerguy.gif
:jumpy: |
Post by prodigy // Nov 29, 2008, 5:44am
|
prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
|
Im agree with a point mentioned here in other post, and is we don't realy know nothing about the future of Truespace..
As the sdk is free and released, i guess we all real dependats from external developers more than Caligari or microsoft..
So i believe we need to show to the Industrie, we can make something cool with truespace, no one gonna spend money and time on a software for people that only make 3d for hobby.. :( and truespace is now free, but we paid for it on a near past so this is community is a quite diferent than other "opensource" communities that hate pay a cent for work.
:) |
Post by transient // Nov 29, 2008, 5:53am
|
transient
Total Posts: 977
|
If truespace could get back the third-party support that it had previously, there would be no stopping it imo. |
Post by prodigy // Nov 29, 2008, 5:54am
|
prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
|
If truespace could get back the third-party support that it had previously, there would be no stopping it imo.
Right, that's the point. |
Post by jhowell // Nov 29, 2008, 6:39am
|
jhowell
Total Posts: 400
|
Yes, we need 3rd party support and we need to get the word out.
Always admired work that marcel delord was doing with truespace.
This work he is or was doing with truepace was stunning...
http://www.crea-vision.fr/html/animations/s-episode3.htm
http://www.caligari.com/Gallery/animations/2005/jan/anim/1095.wmv
This Truespace animation from Marcin Kacprzak is great.
http://www.caligari.com/store/special/images/1603.wmv
and of course this Truespace animation from Spencer Britton .. A nice long Truespace trailer! Very creative.
http://www.caligari.com/store/special/images/16.wmv
:) |
Post by Délé // Nov 29, 2008, 7:17am
|
Délé
Total Posts: 1374
|
the realtime seems decent but it lacks something, from what i can tell of that youtube page it really isnt bad but there is just a certain something missing, you know what i mean?
The DX rendering is capable of some very good quality if you spend some time on it. It may not quite be capable of ultra realistic rendering with GI and all, but it should work very well for game/cartoon styles.
Just check out some of parva's work. He's extremely good at demonstrating what DX rendering is capable of in tS.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=5211
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=4873
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3990
As for your question as to which program to use, that is difficult to answer. Blender does have some more advanced tools (as of right now) from what I've seen. I think the tS interface is way better IMO. I have a very hard time finding my way around Blender. Truespace has a good animation base, but it still needs building upon. If they put as much effort into the character animation tools in this next cycle as they did in the last, I think tS will have a very capable animation suite. I do also believe that 3rd party developers will start jumping on board in the next year or two now that the SDK is out. So I wouldn't be surprised to see some good new tools come around that way too.
I would say that Blender has all of the tools you would likely need to work with "right now", but has a horrible interface. TS may have a better UI, but does not yet have all of the tools one would need to create a really dynamic animation. It's got some powerful base tools, like clip blending, procedural animation, physics, etc. However it lacks tools like audio syncing, soft bodies, particles, etc. At least as far as the new architecture (workspace) is concerned. If you do use tS, I would recommend working exclusively in the new architecture. The old architecture is still capable of some good stuff and has some features that the new side doesn't, but all of those tools are quickly becoming very outdated and are not going to be updated. The old side is going the way of the dinosaurs.
So it's a tough choice. Either go with the program that has all of the tools you need right now but may suck to work with, or get into tS and hope that Caligari and 3rd party developers come out with the tools you'll need by the time you actually need them. It's a tough call.
hth |
Post by jhowell // Nov 29, 2008, 8:40am
|
jhowell
Total Posts: 400
|
Hi Dele, You sure are correct. Blender HAS the tools but working with it is a PAIN (I do appreciate Truespace user (nowherebrain)'s great blender tutorials and work). I spent weeks on Blender and gave up (boy, was I frustrated). Truespace has the interface which really increases speed and creativity in my opinion. But does need more tools. People said when Truespace 1 came out (I bought it over 20 years ago) it was way ahead of its time. I still agree. :jumpy: |
Post by RAYMAN // Nov 29, 2008, 10:10am
|
RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
|
So it's a tough choice. Either go with the program that has all of the tools you need right now but may suck to work with, or get into tS and hope that Caligari and 3rd party developers come out with the tools you'll need by the time you actually need them. It's a tough call.
hth
Dele I see a third way of doing things and that is combinig some free any cheap solutions.
it all depends on what you want to do ... your not married to any of these
packages . So dont think in boxes...
When film companies produce they use a few pieces of software.
Dont foreget what your time is worth too !
if you work 250 days a year and 8 hours a day on it thats 2000 hours.....
If you use the right software for every task that can cut those hours by a third.
How much do you think your work is worth per hour.Let alone that you enjoy doing what you do rather then keeping skratching your head...
Dont forget that those additional hours cost you power supply and lots more
......;)
maybe you could get a sponsor for your project..... ?! |
Post by DigitalEternal // Nov 29, 2008, 1:44pm
|
DigitalEternal
Total Posts: 8
|
Wow, you guys are great, thank you for all the feedback, all your tips and suggestions are quite helpful, this is a much more friendly forum then blender's lol
I only just now noticed that these forums are blackwards and page one is really page 3 lol so ive been catching up on some of your feedback.
The movie im looking to do is going to be a comedy, the animations types of characters are going to be similar to what you see in like dreamworks films, things like madagascar, kung-fu panda etc, im not going for photo realisim im going for a fun, colourful and creative environment which i hope will fit the genre of the movie well.
Thanks for the suggestions of the other supporting programs, im defiently going to have to look into hodini and the rest of em, i currently do most of my 2d in paint shop pro, ive been using it since like version 4 and know it inside and out so i dont want to switch, plus it does 90% of what photoshop will faster and easier.
Im going to have to explore ts's realtime rendering a little further, some of the work ive seen done in it actually looks quite decent and almost what im looking for.
hoping through the course of this week I can choose which software im going to be using and start getting familiar with it, even if i dont choose ts i think ill stick around on this forum as it seems like a great place with great users.
Thanks again for all the imput guys! |
Post by frootee // Nov 29, 2008, 3:44pm
|
frootee
Total Posts: 2667
|
yeah these forums are definitely more friendly than others out there in the web.
I've posted several questions on the blender forums and got 2 responses. I figured the problem out on my own every time anyway so it didn't really matter I suppose.
There are a lot of friendly knowledgeable folks here who like to help.
RealTime rendering is pretty cool. Just like with anything else, once you spend time with it, you get faster with setting up scenes, lighting, etc. |
Post by transient // Nov 29, 2008, 5:53pm
|
transient
Total Posts: 977
|
The DX rendering is capable of some very good quality if you spend some time on it. It may not quite be capable of ultra realistic rendering with GI and all, but it should work very well for game/cartoon styles.
If you could bake vray or dribble's gi to uv, then realistic rendering would be a lot easier. Maybe a real-time gi option specifically coded for workspace would be ideal.
The old architecture is still capable of some good stuff and has some features that the new side doesn't, but all of those tools are quickly becoming very outdated and are not going to be updated. The old side is going the way of the dinosaurs.
6.6 may be a dinosaur, but it's a cool dinosaur.
I still think Caligari have a golden opportunity to make the new truespace a killer rendering environment, but I think they would have to develop a separate product with this goal specifically in mind, with it's own interface. Truespace Classic, maybe?;)
I can't see that happening, so long live 6.6.:D |
Post by RorrKonn // Nov 29, 2008, 10:49pm
|
RorrKonn
Total Posts: 43
|
NVIDIA has super home computers for under $ 10,000.
Would defiantly help for a 2 hour long movie. |
|
