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A few questions about Truespace
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
A few questions about Truespace // Roundtable
Post by DigitalEternal // Nov 30, 2008, 4:41am
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DigitalEternal
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lol i cant afford to buy a comercial lisence for blender let alone a 10k computer, im basically going to try to pull this off on a budget of 0, although Im hoping to upgrade to a new pc in the new year, but it wont be a 10k pc, maybe a 1k pc, hoping i7 cpu's and boards drop in price by then
From what i understand, didnt microsoft buy truespace? then they released it for free to compete with google's whatchyoumacallit, so im really hoping that they are actually still going to develop it and not just leave it as is because its no longer profitable, unless they decide to make the next version a paid version and just leave 7.6 free, hopefully that doesnt happen.
ts definetly has alot of potential, if they refine the ui a little (less searching through flyouts for what you need) and add some more features then it could definetly compete with the big guns |
Post by frootee // Nov 30, 2008, 5:49am
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frootee
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From what I can tell, truespace development will continue. Why wouldn't it?
The reason Caligari does not provide an item by item list of things which will be in the next release is, sometimes plans change and functionality does not make it into the release. Why? Sometimes it's just not as good an idea as originally thought. Sometimes there's not enough time to implement it. There are many other reasons. But I would be immensely surprised if Truespace development stopped.
I would suggest, use both blender and Truespace. They can compliment each other. Besides, when it comes time for editing, you'll need to learn a video editor package as well. So may as well learn blender and truespace now. :) |
Post by DigitalEternal // Nov 30, 2008, 6:13am
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DigitalEternal
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Well its possible that ts develpment will be stopped simply because its free now and no longer profitable, someone has to pay the programers, if its not making money then why update it? especially if they only want this as a front end for virtual earth, which is why it was aquired and made free, in which case further development would be pointless as it already does what it needs to.
but hopefully this is not the case and development will continue.
I would love to see automated lipsync introduced into this, i suggested it to blender but i doubt theyll listen, but it would save you countless hours, basically you take a voice recognition software and script it in to controll animation, so you would make your visems and choose which sound they represent, then you pass your audio file in and it will create the lipsync automatically for you.
Its such an easy and simple thing but it would save sooo much time and agrivation why doing speech, would love to see this implemented. |
Post by Finis // Nov 30, 2008, 6:26am
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Finis
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"... commercial license for blender ..." Does Blender charge for commercial use? Is it free only for non-commercial use?
You'd think that someone would have independently developed a good user interface for Blender as a plugin or such. If it really is "open" software then someone could do that.
Microsoft's intent seems to be to use TS to boost interest in, and profitability of, other projects like Virtual Earth. So development may continue and remain free since that could be an investment in making money elsewhere. Microsoft usually has home and pro editions, etc. Maybe there will be a free TS for VE and other more capable versions for a price.
So, who knows where TS is going. Still, if the version of TS that exists at the time you begin your project is useful in your workflow then use it, else don't.
The DX rendering technology and software is always improving and I wouldn't be surprised if it is almost as good as current raytracers and GI systems soon. There is a real-time radiosity system out there. (For developers, not a plugin, I think.) |
Post by Délé // Nov 30, 2008, 8:55am
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Délé
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I believe that the acquisition is about more than just a modeler for VE. MS already had a free modeler called 3DVIA for just that purpose. Online 3d shared spaces have been a focus of Caligari ever since 7.0 first came out. From what I have seen, they have still been focusing on that even after the acquisition.
Given that, one would assume that they would continue to develop most, if not all of the tools in tS. Modeling tools are needed to create 3d content for VE and for making shared spaces. Animation tools, including character animation, would also be useful in shared spaces. Even offline rendering with the ability to bake shadows could greatly enhance shared spaces.
So even if the focus is on VE and shared spaces, it stands to reason that they would continue to develop the tS toolset. They have been so quite since the acquisition, one never really knows for sure though. Unfortunately they have left us only to speculate lately. It would be nice to hear something solid from Caligari regarding the general direction of tS and if the future toolset is still on track with what they had planned, or if it has been altered to fit a new vision. |
Post by spyfrog // Nov 30, 2008, 11:45am
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spyfrog
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Online 3d shared spaces have been a focus of Caligari ever since 7.0 first came out. From what I have seen, they have still been focusing on that even after the acquisition.
Given that, one would assume that they would continue to develop most, if not all of the tools in tS. Modeling tools are needed to create 3d content for VE and for making shared spaces. Animation tools, including character animation, would also be useful in shared spaces. Even offline rendering with the ability to bake shadows could greatly enhance shared spaces.
So even if the focus is on VE and shared spaces, it stands to reason that they would continue to develop the tS toolset. They have been so quite since the acquisition, one never really knows for sure though. Unfortunately they have left us only to speculate lately. It would be nice to hear something solid from Caligari regarding the general direction of tS and if the future toolset is still on track with what they had planned, or if it has been altered to fit a new vision.
I don't see the profit in these "shared spaces". It was just last week that Google withdraw their own version of a interactive 3D World, Livley.
If this "online 3D" idea is the future for Truespace, then the future is uncertain - Google is usually the one to look to for which the direction of the web is heading. They obviously don't see any profit in this so why should MS poor money into it?
I would also like to comment on Prodigys remark that Blender Foundation was close to shutdown because of lack of funds - yes they where. But since Blender is licensed in GPL, that wouldn't matter at all. Blender Foundation isn't a necessary for Blender to live on - anyone could take up the code and continue. That truly makes Blender unkillable, while commercial software like Truespace only can live as long as the owner of the code invest in it.
So if you want to choose a software that you KNOW exist in 5 years, then you have to go with either Blender or one of the big guys - I would recommend some of Autodesks software since they are biggest they are probably not going anywhere soon. Microsoft will of course also exist, but will Truespace? We don't know - we don't even know what next version will have for us... |
Post by transient // Nov 30, 2008, 1:01pm
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transient
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If this "online 3D" idea is the future for Truespace, then the future is uncertain - Google is usually the one to look to for which the direction of the web is heading. They obviously don't see any profit in this so why should MS poor money into it?
Google is solely focused on webads revenue now. It's the biggest money earner on the web, and now that times are tough it's hard to justify leaking money in "maybe" projects, especially when you have shareholders. I wouldn't read too much into the implications of this on the future of the web.
So if you want to choose a software that you KNOW exist in 5 years, then you have to go with either Blender or one of the big guys - I would recommend some of Autodesks software since they are biggest they are probably not going anywhere soon.
You don't know anything for sure. Autodesk's share price has taken a big dive lately, what's the bet they will keep their least profitable venture going if this continues? They have shareholders, too.......
If you think this will never happen, remember that America's two biggest lending institutions almost bit the dust recently (we're talking trillion dollar companies), and the massive car industry is on life support. All companies that operate on credit (which is practically all companies) are in danger right now.
Hopefully this won't happen, as many people would lose their jobs, but you never know.
I agree that Caligari should make some announcement, as the silence is really hurting them, but since the microsoft acquisition there's been a virtual blackout on news.
My guess would be that real-time is going to be the sole focus soon, and maybe this is a good thing in the long term (not for me, but that's life). I can't see how a small team like Caligari can compete with the modo's etc. if they are going to have an each-way bet. Making 3d software is too hard. |
Post by DigitalEternal // Nov 30, 2008, 7:17pm
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DigitalEternal
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I think the only safe assumption to make at this point regarding ts's future is that it really could go either way, the only real fear that i have is that MS would pull further funding of ts developoent without a seconds thought if thats what they wanted to do, in the greater scheme of ms ts is really an insignificant tiny side project that is likely to get forgotten, also MS likes to buy and sink things, so i guess the possbilities are 1 developent will continue or shift tracks slightly, 2 theyve already forgotten about ts or 3 its on the chopping block
it really would be nice if some anouncements were made and the developers made the comunity a little more involved.
Like i said before, im a max user, i know max quite well but i just cant afford a commercial license which isnt going to change so Im left no other choice but to seek out and learn a free alternative, as painstaking as that may be.
I was actually pretty suprised as well that no one has yet created a proper UI for blender, its open source, its got a fair sized, thought be it cult, folowing, I would have thought someone would have though "hey this isnt very good, maybe i should improve it" by now. Apperently version 2.5 is brigin some UI tweaks but i think its just to the extent of being able to change the hotkeys and what not so who cares really but we'll see, assuming 2.5 ever gets released.
Honestly im not sure how many people are still activly developing it, theier foundation tracker is totaly deserted, their forums are barenand nearly abandoned(or atleast people dont like to reply) so blenders future seems slightly iffy as well, atleast from my perspective. In all honesty, if they would just implement a proper UI for blender, its popularity would explode. |
Post by spyfrog // Dec 1, 2008, 12:12am
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spyfrog
Total Posts: 181
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I think the only safe assumption to make at this point regarding ts's future is that it really could go either way, the only real fear that i have is that MS would pull further funding of ts developoent without a seconds thought if thats what they wanted to do, in the greater scheme of ms ts is really an insignificant tiny side project that is likely to get forgotten, also MS likes to buy and sink things, so i guess the possbilities are 1 developent will continue or shift tracks slightly, 2 theyve already forgotten about ts or 3 its on the chopping block
it really would be nice if some anouncements were made and the developers made the comunity a little more involved.
Like i said before, im a max user, i know max quite well but i just cant afford a commercial license which isnt going to change so Im left no other choice but to seek out and learn a free alternative, as painstaking as that may be.
I was actually pretty suprised as well that no one has yet created a proper UI for blender, its open source, its got a fair sized, thought be it cult, folowing, I would have thought someone would have though "hey this isnt very good, maybe i should improve it" by now. Apperently version 2.5 is brigin some UI tweaks but i think its just to the extent of being able to change the hotkeys and what not so who cares really but we'll see, assuming 2.5 ever gets released.
Honestly im not sure how many people are still activly developing it, theier foundation tracker is totaly deserted, their forums are barenand nearly abandoned(or atleast people dont like to reply) so blenders future seems slightly iffy as well, atleast from my perspective. In all honesty, if they would just implement a proper UI for blender, its popularity would explode.
I think that Caligari has to stop being silent soon and tell us the future of the software. This "tell nothing policy" might work when you are working along normally but since they was bought by MS things have changed and now we need a roadmap - before the buyout we knew what Caliagari was headed but now we don't really know since MS plans with Truespace is unknown. More information is a must - we wont see 3rd party extensions before this as an exemple.
One question regarding Max - is it against their license to use the free version to make the movie and then ask someone who has the full version to help you render the finished project? If not, that might be a possibility - I am sure someone could help a aspiring artist.
Also, I don't belive that any of Autodesks major products would vanish even if Autodesk goes bancrupt - they have to many users. It is like Windows - even if MS would go bancrupt, someone would step in and buy the code and continue the development.
When it comes to lack of UI development on Blender, I think this is down to two things:
1) The present users already know this interface and resist change
2) It is probably hard to change the UI. I haven't looked at Blenders code but many of these project that began their life as inhouse tools for several years ago has code that is very hard to separate - rebuilding the UI might mean rebuilding large part of the source code. It might be easier to make a new program from scratch and only import part of the code. |
Post by RorrKonn // Dec 1, 2008, 12:13am
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RorrKonn
Total Posts: 43
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If, and, and but ,Well heck,tomorrow there could be no 3D app's left.
If I new 20 years ago what I know now
I would have coded my own 3D software just for personal use would not have sold it commercially.
but here we are
99% of the 3D universe has no idea about tS so don't think MS got tS to sink a ship that never made it to the ocean.
AutoDeck got XSI so now there is only 2 ships left in the ocean AutoDesk & Maxon.
the fab 5 is now the last two.
Wonder who will win the battle ?
Like the Captain said when there is only one left buy n buy there be none left.
If Auto Desk buys Maxon kiss it all good buy.
Yes I know I Know Lightwave sailed the ocean once apon a time.
Ya know the wreck ship the gangster sharks lived in the 3D movie fish tails, yap that was Lightwave.
Questions
Who makes more $$$ Poser or Renderosity ?
3D coders or Turbosuid ?
Would you make more $$$ coding a 3D Software or making 3D content or making educational material.
Can you actually make a profit coding 3D software ?
Does stock holder give a care about 3D Artist ?
Love makes the world go around but money greases the axis.
I don't care about any of it I am going to make my comics and movies and the world can burn down around me for all I care. |
Post by transient // Dec 1, 2008, 12:21am
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transient
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I don't care about any of it I am going to make my comics and movies and the world can burn down around me for all I care.
Sounds like Garth Ennis has some competition....;) |
Post by jamesmc // Dec 1, 2008, 1:01am
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jamesmc
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Doubt there will much coming from Caligari on their future with Microsoft. Both have a history of being tight-lipped.
As technologies advance, the traditional approach to 3D graphics will change and change very fast.
NVIDIA already has a super computer card you can put on your PC for about 1200 U.S. It reportedly will make render farms obsolete and make extremely complex graphics re-drawing approvingly fast.
What this means for the average guy is that the way in which 3D graphics are introduced into programs will most likely change. 3D scanners of various complexities will become available, making artwork a push of a button.
Display units might actually involve some sort of holography where you can rotate in real time on your desktop a 3D model.
Desktop units doing 3D work may come closer resembling the halo-deck on the U.S.S. Enterprise sooner than one thinks.
Until then, there are many softwares available for use.
Houdini is still a 900 pound gorilla and has some free and cheap learning editions. Lightwave 3D is still a strong hold in small graphics units and TV production - I doubt that will change soon.
Carrara is pretty good alternative and has power comperable to tS and in some areas superior to it.
Photoshop Extended and After Effects may be something to keep your eye on. Already, one can import 3D models, paint on them and re-export them to programs or utilize them as actual 3D models in After Effects. Perhaps Adobe is going to weigh-in by putting its toes on the scale measuring 3D capabilitiy? Adobe Illustrator can do 2.5D with lathe and extrude functions.
On the free side, Blender and trueSpace - with Blender getting the high marks for finished production quality video and animations.
As far as making a video, I don't think it makes too much difference right now. The reason I say that, if you can get your skills up in compositing a video, the posibilities in manipulating 3D art work is quite doable and with special effects being in these packages, there's really not a good reason to learn the in depth details of a particular 3D package.
The one thing I would question on trueSpace and Blender is "instancing." I'm pretty sure that tS doesn't have any level of convenient instancing and not real sure about Blender. Instancing can save you huge amounts of time in video production.
With programs like 3D Coat, Zbrush and etc., one can make very high detailed graphics in no time and use normal maps to re-import them into your 3D software for animation.
Sometimes people just want to do Web video and Flash is a good alternative. With 3D software like Swift3D and Adobe Flash, you have all the tools you need to do so.
Lot of choices out there...
As you mentioned, Blender and trueSpace are free. Doesn't hurt to invest the time to get to know them. Locking yourself in one software is not a good idea anyway as things can change. Besides, what is 'pulling teeth' in one software may be a 'piece of cake' in another.
Okay, I have ponitificated and explelled my ill winds of gaseous anomalies. Time for the rotten tomatoes and 'yeah buts.' |
Post by spyfrog // Dec 1, 2008, 1:41am
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spyfrog
Total Posts: 181
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Doubt there will much coming from Caligari on their future with Microsoft. Both have a history of being tight-lipped.
Caligari might be tight lipped company but Microsoft? Are you confusing them with Apple? I don't agree that MS should be tight lipped. They have always talked very much about coming products. MS problem is more about delivery - I am still waiting for the new database based filesystem that they promised for Win95...
The way MS has acted has been - if there is bad news, they are tight lipped. If there is good news then they talk about it everywhere.
That is why the continious silence about TS makes me think that we wont like the news and they know it - if MS had great plans for it they would probably be all over the press talking about it. |
Post by RorrKonn // Dec 1, 2008, 2:04am
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RorrKonn
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Want I do not want is to worry about topology,seems, rig etc etc.
Never really want to learn all that stuff to start with.
Never really want to learn 10 deferent app's either
All I really want is to set down and make comics and movies,in one easy to use app.
Something like a game that makes comics & movies.
With out having a 10 years master degree in rocket science.
So hopefully tS will make the app I need. |
Post by TomG // Dec 1, 2008, 3:51am
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TomG
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Personally, why worry about the future of tS? It is a free app with millions of downloads, so a third party developer can develop for it today, as it is, and have a large potential market, regardless of what happens to tS in the future. Similarly with users looking for a tool for a project - why worry what tS will or won't have next month / year, and just look at what it has today. Best to base your decision on definites, rather than speculatives (look at the financial market for a clue on that!).
So whether we comment on what is next in tS or not, I think that should not be part of a decision - it's why we DON'T comment, as people went "Oh you are not having that tool? Well I'm off!" only to find we DID get that tool after all, or went "Oh you are having that tool? I'll use tS waiting for that then!" only to find the tool did not make it in.
Both ways around, disappointment. So don't base decisions on what might or might not turn up in the future, look at tS as it is now, a tool capable of producing great 3D work, and base the decision on that.
As for Google and Lively - did you try it? It was nothing like shared spaces at all. You couldn't model with a full set of tools, couldn't customize the space fully, you didn't walk around in the space from one place to another you just "teleported" across the space, the spaces did not have as good a real-time renderer, the avatars were limited in a particular style, the interactivity and "intelligence" of objects was limited - again without speculating on the future, the shared spaces in tS meet a need for architects, store designers, virtual stores, and more, that Lively never would. It is a comparison of apples and oranges, Lively was never intended to be those things, it was just a 3D chat room (or if it was intended to be those things, that was a long way off, and Google quit investing in that direction because it was so far away).
tS is already there in that department, meeting those needs today, with the development it has already had. And tS is not intended as merely a 3D chat room to socialize in. So it is a very different product, and comparing the demise of Lively to "there is no need for shared spaces" is like saying Clive Sinclair's C5 was not a success, so there is no market for full-size cars that run on something other than gasoline.
To get back to the original questions though
"Are there more plugins or third party addons that you need to achive the results seen in the galleries?"
Generally if there are plugins used, they are free, or very affordable. These are not $1,000 plugins as seen with other apps. Things like character animation, etc, are built in and don't require additional purchases for modules or plugins.
Many jobs originally done by plugin, which requires coding and compiling in C++ or similar, can now be replaced by scripted objects, created easily inside tS. This allows non-programmers to get in on the act of creating new widgets, objects, modeling tools, lights, etc. This is gaining speed in tS, and more of these items are coming out faster all the time.
"First, do you really need the vray renderer? "
Not at all. You can model, animate etc in workspace, with the new modeling and character animation tools, and render in the Model side using Lightworks, all for free. You don't get Global Illumination (though you can if you go the Virtualight route, also free and included in the program, but not widely used as it's less intuitive to get results from that than Lightworks).
"Also, from the feature overview on the site it makes it seem as though lipsync is automatic now"
Not really. There was Facial Animator, and it's still in there, but its legacy code on the Model side only. It wouldn't tie in well with the new characte rigs and skeletons and animations from the workspace side I would say. Perhaps others who have tried combining those items could say for sure. So it would only work, I think, for a close up of a talking head, and not for a fully rigged character.
We do have new vertex morphs on the workspace side, that make the manual process much easier. It would not be impossible for a plugin to be developed to work with those new tools to give the desired automatic processing, but such a thing does not exist at present.
I can't really compare Blender to tS as I've never used Blender in any depth. I'd see the work of Luis Saavedra as another example for animations done in tS, they are working on full length TV series with tS as a major tool.
I'd also say don't just use one tool - every studio has more than one tool in its toolbox, so why not use both Blender and tS and any other free stuff you can get your hands on? Then use the best of each to get your desired end result.
HTH!
Tom
PS -the undocumented feature that tS has above all other modeling packages is an awesome community. You'll find it friendly and helpful, able to give tips and advice on specific problems, help you achieve a particular look or affect, answer questions on other apps that might be useful (we don't blanket ban discussion of combining other apps advantages alongside tS's advantages), and they'll even develop objects, scripts or plugins on request too to meet your particular needs. Everyone in this community is awesome, and their help adds an incalculable amount of "ease of use" to trueSpace :) |
Post by DigitalEternal // Dec 1, 2008, 7:29am
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DigitalEternal
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The thing is that both ts and blender are missing some features I wold like, and as they are my only real options it would be good to know where they are headed and what features will be introduced in the future so i can make an imformed desicion.
The problem i find with using two modeling suites is you end up running into alot of problems when importing models and what not from one to the other, its usualy far less agrivating to just develop in one suite and then have a good 2d suite for post production, texture creation and all the other fun stuff.
I would love to see someone develop a lipsync plguin for either ts or blender, its really a simple process, theres plent of voice recognition software out there, as long as its capable of typing out what the speech says then it would be no problem to get it to automate the aunimation.
Anyways, i do agree the forums here are great, as are the people, blenders forums are very desolite and cold, kind of a put-off |
Post by Igor K Handel // Dec 3, 2008, 11:24am
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Igor K Handel
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Hi DigitalEternal.
Surprisingly no-one appears to have picked up on a point you made in relation to TS flyout menus being a pain.
To clarify, though workspace in its default state has tool flyouts, this can easily be user modified, so giving you your very own tool sets, all permanently visible, with all the flyouts permanently unfolded and arranged in any order your chose, if that's your preferred workflow style (as it is mine). I would suggest you do a quick forum search for a UI by Tiles, as a very good starting point for having your very own UI set up as YOU would like it.
There is also a very good vid tut (free) on how to make your own user interface on the workspace side (again a quick search should dig that out).
Ref Blender interface, I agree it's an uncomfortable beast, however recently I hear talk of a complete overhaul of the UI at least in the pipeline ( I believe this can be confirmed in the blender foundation to do list, and have myself seen several posts of current projects aiming at finally streamlining the UI into something less ..er.. offbeat)
Ref anim capabilities of TS. Be aware that currently TS has what can best be described as um, irregularities in IK implimentation (well documented on these forums). However it is with great anticipation that I understand that the next patch should finally sort the IK problems out. (I reckon I and others need a saintly patience award for the wait for this breakthrough :)
From a character animation point of view TS is much more user friendly and extremely fast (bearing in mind you can set your own kbd shortcut keys (with a few minor gremlins but liveable with) Blender certainly has more powerful character anim tools, but to me they are kind of clunky, sure they work, but it takes a heck of a lot of studying and internet searching to get decent info on some of the tools. However I have to say that (in my view) the TS version of the animation fcurve editor is considerably more fiddly to use than that of blender. Blender has lattices etc that TS workspace side does not, howver for sheer speed of posing and basic rig creation TS wins hands down.
I have to add my voice to the high value of the very friendly, knowledgable and helpful members of this forum, can't be beaten, invaluable!
Ref Shared spaces. Er just an observation, perhaps someone would care to enlighen me if I am mistaken. From what I have seen over the last year, whilst the bulk of the capabilities of shared space are already in place, it is woefully unused! Ok there are weekly scriptors meetings, the odd animation meeting, and bits n bobs on festive occasions, but that seems to be about it? Personally I suspect that this concept though brilliant is just too far ahead of it's time, or maybe artists are lone workers by nature? From my perspective shared space is the single most valuable tool within TS for making a community made movie, for teaching, for learning for sharing ideas, yet ask yourself when did i last use the 24hr 365 days a year FREE opportunity to share 3d creation or ideas with another user in shared space?. I bet its either never or some time when you first installed TS. Blender never had this luxury yet they have come up with the goods (and subsequent publicity) twice now. To me this is a crying shame. A HUGE resource just left dormant. (not a rant I just find it bizarre)
end of short reply... lol
Yours
IK
Sheesh the power has just gone down, Aberdeen weather is the pits!! Snow ice, wind, rain, will someone please fix the hole in the roof and turn on the heat! |
Post by transient // Dec 3, 2008, 5:28pm
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transient
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Ref Shared spaces. Er just an observation, perhaps someone would care to enlighen me if I am mistaken. From what I have seen over the last year, whilst the bulk of the capabilities of shared space are already in place, it is woefully unused!
The problem with the shared spaces is that you can't run them on your own server, and currently there's no way to rent personal space from Caligari/ Microsoft. It's essentially a communal gathering place, kind of like this forum. Also, many ts users live in alternate time zones and thus miss the official get togethers.
I agree that the idea is ahead of it's time, although there are similar tools in industry so I've been told. And also there is obviously second life.
Like all things truesapace, the future of collaboration is a mystery.:confused: |
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