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Keeping a promise!
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Keeping a promise! // Work in Progress
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 2, 2007, 10:11pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Keeping a promise I made to John Logan a couple of years back. When I first started the AA-1 we had talked about the Rockwell Commander 500, nicknamed "Shrike" and I set up a modeling Workshop. That's as far as I got.
After doing the airport scenes for the AA-1, I thought I'd create a few low poly, commercial and private, aircraft like this Lear -
texture lifted from MS Flight Simulator 9
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Like usual my intention was not to get too detailed but I love the lines of this plane and has been one of my favorites since I was a teen. I haven't decided how much detail I will add but I've been playing with ways to make padded leather seats for the passenger area.
Anyway, thought I'd post this to show modeling progress from time to time. Usually knowing someone is waiting for your next improvement helps get through the tedious details.
... think I'll do the landing gear next ... and this aircraft does have riveted panels so I'll have to tacle that also.
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Post by ProfessorKhaos // Feb 3, 2007, 12:51am
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ProfessorKhaos
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Cool stuff 3dpdk!
Haven't seen John here in a while. Think I still owe him (and myself) a nurbs P-51B too. :)
Still got a really good ship-building itch to scratch too! So many ideas, so few results for me the last couple of years... guess a dream is a dream until you make it reality. May have to bounce a few questions off of you given your field of work. I'm sure you have quite a few interesting stories to tell since Katrina.
Been making some headway learning the ins and outs of tS7 scripting (much as with python/mesher in tS6.6). Lots of good help to be found out there from lots of great folks.
Would love to see what John's up to these days. Whatever it is I'm sure it's got a bazillion skillfully placed polygons and enough detail to make every "rivet counting" aircraft and tank enthusiast drool with delight!
Any intent on designing for the flight sim world? I was doing a few props (not the air moving kind). With FSX out, I'm curious how easy the development path will be.
I may rework the PC-6 at some point. Some geometry errors in the mesh (shhhh! don't tell anyone! :)) have made it slightly difficult to use the way I intended in tS7. Going to wire up all the controls to sliders via script so that they can be driven for animation. All the different sized texture layers I used in tS6.6 have caused some mapping problems on the player side. I think it's an aliasing issue of some sort. Anyway, there's no reason to keep 6 layers of material these days. Learned a few things since then I have. :)
I love to see these come together. Enjoy seeing all the progress pics if you have time to post as you go!
P.K. |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 3, 2007, 3:00am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Nice work! I like how you have lit these renders. Dispite the missing landing gear they still manage to look like real aircraft thanks to the lighting you've chosen.
I've always thought there is some inherently more beautiful about twin engine aircraft. Though like you I'm a fan of the Lear. my favourite twin engine plane of all time would have to be the Mosquito Bomber. |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 4, 2007, 2:26am
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Ok. Yep! It's official. This has gone from a quicky add-to-my-library-of-simple-objects project to a full blown modeling project.
I've been studying photos of the Shrike and can see I have a few inaccuracies, like the air intakes on the engine pods. Found several landing gear configurations and decided to model the simplest.
W!zard; I think a lot has to do with perspective. When I'm building, in my mind this is a full size aircraft. I set up my lights and camera angles as if I was in the space taking a picture. In my mind, in these "photos" everyone has gone home for the day and the lights have been shut down to the bare minimum. I know that sounds a little nutz ... but ... well ... maybe it is a little nutz! but it seems to work!
ProfessorK; The last I remember of your P-51 was you were trying to coax a NURB into the shape of the radiator air intake and several of us were scrambling to upload photos of spinners and intakes. I still have several of those photos on my old system. Then you got involved with file conversion scripting from .cob to .mdl, and then disappeared into the Alaskan Ukon as a V bush pilot. I fly around mount McKinley every once in a while but I haven't been able to spot you.
It's funny, when ever I work with aircraft in tS in the back of my mind I'm wondering if my work would stand up to JL's standards. High goals but definitely keeps me on my toes.
Well you're the expert on the conversion process! I think these aircraft have too many polys, but I'd love to fly it around in the FS world. BTW; I don't think anyone ever noticed bad geometry in your PC-6.
Well here's the main landing gear and the rear entrance. The Shrike had/has (I don't know if Rockwell still builds this one) several different configurations but I kind of like this one. Keep in mind, the cabin on this aircraft is about the size of a mini-van. The tires are full geometry meaning the groves are real but the non-shadowed infinate light has lit up the inside of the grove; makes them look a little strange.
More later,
Paul
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Post by ProfessorKhaos // Feb 4, 2007, 3:09am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Looking nice! Admit it, you're addicted :)
lol. Took a trip down memory lane through the CaliArchive... forgot about some of my unfinished projects from back then. Alas, a hard drive crash wiped out some but I still want to take on the little nellie project at some point. Will have to start over though :(
http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/1583/15675.html?1105693372
Yea, I kinda got sidetracked to flight sims and building props for a bit. Tapered off a little since FSX came out. Sorta scuttled the multiplayer world when they chose to make folks have to use gamespy.
Getting back to my 3D roots these days :)
We need to get another run of planes in like the good ole days. Seemed like a 3rd of the posts back then were on planes (a good half or more were John's of course).
P.K. |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 5, 2007, 2:07am
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Ok, ok, so I fudged the landing gear a little. I finally found a close up photo that revealed that the gear didn't bend at the knee as I thought but rather rotates 90° on the Z axis before pulling the entire assembly back, nesting the tire horizontally in the rear of the engine pod.
So here's the final landing gear model complete with hydraulic break line. It was the steel clamps holding the break line that was confusing me in the low res photos.
Oh, I updated the shape of the front end of the engine pod and added the oil cooler intake.
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Post by kena // Feb 5, 2007, 5:40am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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I've never been that good at full blown models. I'm more of an accessory person when it comes to 3-d modeling. This is really fantastic. |
Post by RichLevy // Feb 5, 2007, 7:22am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Very nice work Paul, you seem to be on a digital tear recently :D It's great to see all of your work here.
Rich |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 11, 2007, 1:37pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Thanks for the encouragement! With a detailed model the temptation to put it aside and do something less tedious (like female characters in nightgowns ;)http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/images/icons/icon14.gif ) is only defeated by knowing others are watching you develop the model.
I've had some extra time on my hands for a few weeks, Rich, because it's license renewal time for me and US Homeland Security requires background checks on all new and reissues. It can take quite a few weeks. In the mean time I get to do some 3D things I've been wanting to do.
This update shows the front landing gear and landing light, a couple of small parts like the pitot tube (for air speed indicator) and the result of my riveted panels. Some of them are actually separate panels while some are bumped.
Input please.
Paul
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Post by kena // Feb 11, 2007, 2:52pm
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kena
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you can definatly tell the difference between the seperate pannels and the bumped ones. I would use one or the other, but not both. Or maybe bump the other direction? |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 11, 2007, 6:06pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Here's something to consider. The reference photos I'm using show two types of panels. One is the seams of the skin of the plane. These are barely noticeable in the photos because they are painted and usually do not come apart. Right now I actually have my bump depth or amplitude turned up pretty high while I'm working the map, but I intend to turn it down to try and match the visibility of the photos when done.
The other panel on this craft are various access panels such as the large one on the top of the nose that are screwed on. Notice the drain at the bottom of the compartment. I didn't make that up. It's there to drain rain water that gets in from the loose fitting panel.
The question is; do I go for accuracy or do I go for asthetics? |
Post by kena // Feb 11, 2007, 6:51pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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I would say go for accuracy in this case. If you were to do a "fantasy" version, then you would go for asthetics. |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 14, 2007, 9:35pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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This is my first attempt at a padded, leather passenger seat ... ah ... not to sure about it. Looks a little too primitive to me.
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It doesn't look like much change since the last update but that doesn't reflect the amount of work done since then. I realized that in riveted panels, the groove goes in and rivets protrude so I had to replace my black and white bump maps with a 25% gray background with black grooves and white rivets. The reason for the gray being closer to black is that it keeps the grooves from being too deep but provides a good contrast for the rivets.
Oh! Windshield installed, and access panels seated properly.
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Post by MadMouse // Feb 14, 2007, 11:01pm
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Looking really good Paul. You've got a good level of detail going on. Looking forward to the finished piece.
Steve |
Post by Steinie // Feb 15, 2007, 2:20am
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Total Posts: 3667
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I can see a big difference now with the panels, looks great! Two things do not. The padding on your seats and the rivets on the nose. Are they innies or outies rivets?
Everything else looks first class. |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 15, 2007, 5:46am
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Good eye Steinie! As best as I can make out from all the photos I have found so far, the tip of the nose is an access panel (maybe to weather avoidance radar and/or gyro?) but I have not been able to determine if the screws have a radial or lateral orientation. If lateral the holes will appear elongated, if radial the holes will each have a screw head in them like the cowling access panel (minus that one bit of weird geometry going on in that forward corner. I can't make it go away!) The bumps that are there are just position reference until I figure this out (or decide how I want to fudge-it). For now they are "innies" ;)
The seats; Yea, I just sort of threw these together before I found some interior pictures for several variations of the 500, personal, business and commercial (but most of the commercial variations are from the Commander 700 and up, a stretch version of the 500). I mostly wanted to try putting together a procedural texture for light tan, kitt leather (don't know if that's how it's spelled but you know what I mean - "Cadillac leather" my dad calls it! ) but I'm not there yet.
I think I'll do the business arrangement - It's a little more plush with a table and two seats right side and aft, and small coffee and snack service (mini - wet bar) behind the pilot side partition. My kind of plane! So what if it takes six hours to fly from Philly to Atlanta - open up that wet bar!!!!!:p
Yea Steve, I'm getting carried away again! It gives this project a higher probability of going incomplete but I'll try my best not to do that!
Texturing! What a pain. How and when do you decide on texture and bump maps vs actual geometry? (serious question)
Paul |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 15, 2007, 9:58pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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OMG!!!!! I can't believe I found this while hunting the Internet for interior photos and such.:banana:
Professor K, Professor K !!!!!!!... and any other virtual pilots that may be here ... free download, several variations from the 500 , 680, commercial cargo, and some others I didn't know about; and some really nice interior textures ... flight characteristics of the Beachcraft Baron ... even has a wood panel add-on.
Download here (http://www.flightsimonline.com/commander/)
Take a look at the screen shots while you're there!
Um .............. I'll ... uh ... I'll be gone for a little while .....:D
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Low altitude flyby of business dist New Orleans and French Quarter and some Basic interior shots
MS Flight Simulator 2004 (V9) Supposed to have passed the test for V10 too, Glen!http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/images/icons/icon14.gif
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Post by GraySho // Feb 15, 2007, 10:03pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Very nice progress. I like the paneling. I have an aircraft (Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt) in the works myself, I might show it when it's textured. Though I didn't model it in tS. |
Post by MadMouse // Feb 15, 2007, 11:10pm
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Yea Steve, I'm getting carried away again! It gives this project a higher probability of going incomplete but I'll try my best not to do that!
Texturing! What a pain. How and when do you decide on texture and bump maps vs actual geometry? (serious question)
Hmmmm tricky one... personally I tend to add as much of the smaller details as I can with bump maps, simply because I find texturing easier than modelling. A well made bump map can look a lot more effective than most people think. A lot of the time people tend to fall into the trap of using a greyscale version of the texture as the bump because its an easy fix, but I tend to draw all my bump maps from scratch and that way you can get much better control over the variation in the spread of the shades of grey. Its a lot more work but infinitely better. But of course there at times when a bump map is no substitute for good old geometry. So I guess there is no hard and fast rules.
I don't know how much help that is to you Paul, but its a 'serious answer' :D
Steve |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Feb 16, 2007, 4:37am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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lol 3dpdk. You know me pretty well. Hopefully I can somewhat resist the urge because last time I disappeared for a few months for my other great love... virtual flying. :D
Your plane looks awesome by the way! :banana: Any chance of seeing a mesh? |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 16, 2007, 6:04pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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There you go Professor. Wire frames! Color separated, too. I don't really use all these layers, but all the lines blended together too much to tell anything. Notice the interior is a cut away of the exterior with all the normals reversed and scaled down a bit.
The local lights inside the tires are short fall-off negative lights. Gives a solid contact look in the final render.
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Post by 3dpdk // Feb 19, 2007, 11:24am
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Well ... the seats arrived this weekend. Soft leather and all.
Back to building, as opposed to blowing things up.
Don't pay attention to the weird shadows in this. It took two dozen renders to realize the line drawings have their luminance turned up that sort of overpowers some of the small soft shadows.
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Post by MadMouse // Feb 19, 2007, 11:38am
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MadMouse
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I'm looking forward to a flight in this plane. With all thoses seat you could take a few of us up with you on its maiden flight. I call shotgun ;)
Good stuff paul :banana: |
Post by GraySho // Feb 19, 2007, 12:10pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Good work. The riveting on the airplane looks pretty good. The seats could use a bit more shininess, if the leather is supposed to be new. |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 19, 2007, 12:10pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Thanks Steve, and thanks for your previous insight. The panel and rivets bump map is the most adventurous I have attempted yet. I didn't unwrap the fuselage because it makes an impossible map so I'm using a 4096 X 2048 gray scale image with a cylindrical UV. You are right! It's extra work but a lot less tedious than trying to properly place a bunch of rivet heads, and so far, I like the way it's turning out.
By the way, I finally consolidated the leather material into a two layer procedural "material"; two layers of bump and two layers of color shader. I like this result but I've been looking at it all weekend. Any comments enyone?
Oh! The seats are modeled from a photo of available options from the Rockwell / Commander web sight. It's the little label on the side of the box in the background.
GrayShow: The leather I had in mind has a very soft surface like suede ... but not suede. The shine it would have would be a speculate shine of some sort. I'll try increasing the shine but maybe just broadening the specularity may improve it. |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 21, 2007, 7:15pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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I was a little tired of seeing this plane from the same angle, same work-space surroundings, so I found a "yellow gear" tractor and towed the Commander out of the hanger, on to the tarmac for some photos in the sun light. Just testing the paint design.
I'm not anywhere near finished modeling but opposite from some other modelers here, I prefer to add textures as I go. That way it's not such a daunting task after all the modeling is done.
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... more later,
Paul |
Post by Methusela // Feb 21, 2007, 7:27pm
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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This is looking fantastic! I'm sure Mssr. Logan would be proud! |
Post by kena // Feb 21, 2007, 7:27pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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looks pretty good, but the reflection of the person taking the shot looks like they are floating. |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 21, 2007, 7:35pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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I'm sure Mr. Logan would be proud!
That would be the ultimate, wouldn't it?!!!:)
kena... feet planted firmly on the ground; check the reflection in the spinner. It's just a weird reflection. I was just playing around.
[EDIT]
Let me explain: Even in my real photography I tend to photograph things from a low perspective. The tS camera is actually looking through the legs of the character, so maybe some of you really perceptive folks may have a subconscious reaction to the angle discrepancy.
I should have posed the character down on one knee; a position I often assume when taking a photo. |
Post by trueBlue // Feb 21, 2007, 10:00pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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These are some really great shots Paul! What kind of camera did you use? Cannon? |
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