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Life or death for Truespace.
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Life or death for Truespace. // Roundtable
Post by RichLevy // Jan 12, 2009, 3:47pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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In the private social group here there was a quote from spacedek... "user's come, user's go, but space remains the same...
Things have changed, I am not too sure they are for the worst though, just that things are different. I am not sure what Caligari has planned, I don't think it matters too much. If I relied on TS to make a living I would be making sure I did not have to rely on a situation which seemed volatile. That to me makes good business sense, the rest of us have to decide for ourselves what is important.
I have been following these forums for 10 years or so, and I have seen some awesome talent come and go, with each old face leaving another new face enters...
I use the applications that work for me. TS does some things pretty well, other packages fill in the other things.
Rich |
Post by GraySho // Jan 13, 2009, 8:41am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Just in relation to vray sales, i forget the number of times ive seen people ask about whether vray is worth purchasing only to be put off by the reports of bugs and the lack of functionality compared to the full vray.... fix it and they will come :)
In my opinion that´s a trend of Caligari Products since the introduction of tS7, which was I think two or three years ago. The impression of an unfinished product is what I think first when I´m about to start tS7. I always feel like need to work with two programs because every 5 min. or so I wish workspace would have a function that the old modeler has. That´s not helpful if one has to rely on some two or three other programs anyway, and all programs work in a different manner (tS´es way of customizability via LE Spagettis doesn´t help much).
I didn´t buy Vray because of a similar reason, in it´s current version it´s no substitute of the Lightworks engine (no Layers, problems with bump maps, limited shaders, etc.). On has to use workarounds or both renderers or a different application.
I think what tS users need most is one Software which is at least able to do everything that once was working in tS 6.6 within one unified user interface to get things done. And that just to maybe get old users back. To gain new territory it should be at least customizable enough with a few mouseclicks, so maya/max/c4d or whatever user can work how they used to be working, and not learning in-Depth LE usage to map alt-scrollwheel to zooming. I think this is the key to a commercial success. I fear everyone who downloads and starts tS7.6 for the first time is so confused about workspace/modeler and their different nature that they don´t open it again, well...they didn´t pay for it, so why bother.
My honest opinion.
Regards |
Post by marcel // Jan 13, 2009, 11:43am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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GraySho : "I fear everyone who downloads and starts tS7.6 for the first time is so confused about workspace/modeler and their different nature that they don´t open it again"
Me : "It is my opinion. may be the only true reason." :(
Maldrachen : "wow its getting really depressing coming to these forums lately."
Me : "Next time i open a new thread for all the optimists!" :) |
Post by KeithC // Jan 14, 2009, 6:34am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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I understand the frustration that everyone feels of late. The news of the temporary or permanent demise of V-Ray for Truespace is disturbing, but it's not the end of the world. I think what it boils down to, is lack of communication at times here, as well as a general distrust of some of MS's practices (look at what they tried to do with XSI).
At the end of the day, it looks like the ship is steered less by user input and more by the wishes of the big-boss (MS). But I feel that Roman is still pushing to have his original (and expanded) vision seen through. TS is still a WIP of a sort...just like many other programs that were released and used for years, are a WIP.
Personally; I can't really fault Caligari, as I haven't made an honest effort to make anything worthwile...outside of a few pieces of Game Media. Until I really get my hands dirty, I feel that I can only offer the occassional input in the community.
From a Game Devs perspective; I still push people this way for a great modeler (and renderer). We can still use Modeler as the original TS 6.6 operated; that's all many of us need.
Anyways; I just wanted to give everyone at Caligari a "thumbs up" for their effort amidst all this change. It can't be easy.:D
-Keith |
Post by The Master Elite // Jan 14, 2009, 7:59am
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The Master Elite
Total Posts: 107
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Personally I love the current UI...Workspace rules...but I am interested in seeing how they will translate everything from the modeler to the workspace side. :cool: |
Post by splinters // Jan 14, 2009, 9:10am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Personally I love the current UI...Workspace rules...but I am interested in seeing how they will translate everything from the modeler to the workspace side. :cool:
Well, all the icons are there but need reformatting for workspace side...depends on what functions they want to port over. I have noticed that many functions are in the stack and simply accessed by an icon so I would not expect to see hundreds more icons in the workspace side of tS8.
But who knows??
There is probably more stuff in there than we think (if we dig into all the options) but there are still a few omissions; paths, Nurbs and a few more!! |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 14, 2009, 10:52pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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A bunch of thoughts.
WE... are talking like artists. THEY are talking (or not) like businessmen. Guess why we feel so bad? Two different mindsets. But...
if MS were to Really back what tS has already started (the new architecture is better than the old one. But there seem to be limitations), and made a decision to rule the 3D market, man... GAME OVER for the rest of them. No doubt whatsoever.
Expansion with consolidation is the key to growth, and profits.
Some may use Mac... but most use Microsoft. What if almost all the people that make up the 3D/visual world could just deal with one comprehensive system (and suppot) for their operating AND creative needs?
If an exec says it's a small market, then they are quite nearsighted, and are viewing the scene Very narrowly. Great minds are Never narrow.
Here's a core question: How does one make money on a software they offer for free?
I just about lost hope when A: MS bought tS Mainly as their entry into shared space. B: They gave it for free. If there isn't a financial incentive, a reward, then there isn't an interest to be the best. That's not a New Yorker talking; that's life in the real “how do I pay my bills?” world. But I am still trying to be here, and show us off.
If MS actually said to tS '”sink or swim on your own now that I got what I needed”, then that would explain very well why we are where we are.
I have a bad feeling a 'shaft' is going on, to those above me, (the official tS folks), and to those beside me (my fellow artists). The boss rarely gets shafted, btw. I also have a feeling, that either:
A. 'they' don't mind us becoming a 'Blender community', where the artists themselves are the programmers. It don't cost the company a dime, and they reap the benefits, for free. What TrueBlue has just done is my example (he says we can now import .obj files directly into Workspace). I don't know how much money he made for doing this, but it cost Caligari nothing for such a cool development. Or...
B. they're in negotiations in regards to a new renderer, and have to keep quiet until the deal is done.
But this present situation does lead to this...
"...Caligari owes me nothing and I cannot demand anything from it..." – I'm sorry; I don't agree. Then why did I spend money to buy tS, and some of you folks have done that many times over. Why am I still here? Why in my heart am I supporting Roman and Caligari thru thick and thin, and some of you have done this over and over? I cannot agree, from an individual level, and from a business standpoint.
It's easy to say “might need another program for a short bit, till the next update/upgrade”, but not very practical, or cost effective for the customer/artist. I can't be spending money to buy ANOTHER program, and JUST as bad, I can't afford to start the learning curve all over again. Now if I was forced to, then why the heck would I EVER come back? Or have anything good to say about where I came from? (Any perceived negative comments ALWAYS exclude the people I have met through the tS forums. I am eternally grateful to almost all of you. I have written THAT, in my diary)
From the standpoint of the guy with a dream who started tS, and struggled, and struggled, and fought to get to this stage, that would be the ultimate embarrassment, I would say. Let's say you just made a million dollars or two. Is that all all these years of struggle is worth? Your reputation tainted for life? I don't know man; I can't see that. I just can't.
“Populating Virtual Earth with 3D buildings” seems Such a small goal, it don't even make sense. There's gotta be more to it. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jan 15, 2009, 2:18am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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“Populating Virtual Earth with 3D buildings” seems Such a small goal, it don't even make sense. There's gotta be more to it.
Some good points Dragneye - and this one I suspect is the best point.
I'm not sure where the idea that MS bought tS to 'populate VE with 3d buildings' comes from. I've always assumed this was the tip of the iceberg. tS makes excellent and extensive use of MS DX9 Shader technology - a technology that is only going to grow as PC's get moore and moore powerful (note clever reference to Moore's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law) ;)).
Shared Spaces and realtime interactivity will likewise become exponentially moore effective over time. MS's development gurus will not be thinking about what trueSpace can do for MS today but what it can do in 5,10 or even 15 years time.
I believe the modular approach tS takes with the link editor and the Rosetta technology behind it is also likely to be a major factor that will appeal to MS. The open ended nature of nodal editing ensures massive adaptability and expansion potential for the future.
MS has already announced it's commitment to multi-core 64 bit processing in the future - parallel processing is the up and coming name of the game and if I understand things correctly the Rosetta architecture is ideally suited for this type of computing.
In short, trueSpace has MUCH more going for it than it's ability to make models for VE - as a 3d application it is already potentially future-proofed to a large extent.
And I've said it before to general disagreement but a fully interactive 3d web is inevitable - the only way to transmit more information than two dimensionally is three dimensionally.
trueSpace may or may not be a part of the coming 3d web - but it is uniquely well placed at the forefront of a newly emergent and ultimately inevitable media paradigm - and I suspect this is the reason MS acquired tS with the Virtual Earth functionality being little more than an added extra.
PS - Where's my purple ink? |
Post by marcel // Jan 15, 2009, 4:22am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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I am sure that the Web will be in 3d (in 5/10 years) . Today it is unthinkable to imagine paying a browser. If ts becomes a standard for virtual hearth, why not use the soft to build the future of the web? its free would be logical that the browser. it may be inevitable: a lot of software will be free and services will make some money. In this case free software will be perfect to be profitable. it may be the positive point of all this.
Why not a Trueplay into the browser without plugin in Internet Explorer 9? why not TS becomes a web 3d editor? If the web becomes 3d (and not seen as a simple plug-in) we need to create a standard as html (TS). I could show my work on a mobil phone in real time! of course i dream (today). :)
At the beginning Microsoft did not believe Internet. I hope this time it will be a precursor. :rolleyes: |
Post by splinters // Jan 15, 2009, 12:43pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Dragneye, Caligari 'owes me nothing' as my copies of tS and Vray were rewards for competitions and/or testing. I enjoyed the testing process and got more out of it than monetary gain.
So I cannot demand anything for my 'money' as I never paid. That is what I meant but it does not really work as a generic quote from a paid user...it is specific to my situation...:) |
Post by Dragneye // Jan 15, 2009, 5:17pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Agreed splinters. I was meaning more on a mutual respect and appreciation level; a human level if you will. Rather than a monetary level.
But then again... those that have paid for this specific program in the past, sometimes a few times over, well... that money went Somewhere... no? :) |
Post by Burnart // Jan 15, 2009, 6:55pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Hey there W!zard! Where you been? (kind of off topic I know but I haven't seen you in the forums for quite while it seems.) |
Post by scarroll // Jan 23, 2009, 9:24pm
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scarroll
Total Posts: 19
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Actually trueSpace 7 does have a realtime render to file. Unfortunately its tucked away from the usual place. Check out my ts7.6 'Classic' layout. You'll be able to find the functionality you are familiar with in ts6 in the ts7 Workspace view, including the real time render to file buttons. |
Post by Johny // Jan 24, 2009, 1:37am
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Johny
Total Posts: 672
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I think life or death for trueSpace now depend on Microsoft.
My respect to Roman for running Caligari for years with few registered users. :)
Can Microsoft keep to make trueSpace life like what Roman did? Time will answer it for us. |
Post by marcel // Jan 24, 2009, 11:21am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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Thank you for giving your opinion. This thread is not all bad. it shows that the true TS users are concerned about its future.
OK, maybe microsoft saved Caligari (i don't know). May be that the free software has enabled many people to access them. It is a good thing.
the downside is that Caligari is not master of the software development and Microsoft's ambitions are not necessarily the same.
If TS (by Microsoft) is only related to VE, its futur development will not please to all those who have more ambitious for this soft.
I had no comments from the team Caligari in this regard. I understand their silence in these conditions.
But we must understand that the criticism is sometimes more beneficial than congratulations.
Then a little more information on the development of TS would be welcome :
is that export to VE since TS is regarded only as a plugin ?
I think that the importance given to VE should not obscure the fact that TS is much more than that: it is the future of TS as we speak!
I nevertheless retains full confidence in the team Caligari and I would like to thank all the developers of this forum who work hard.
Just for info: What became the collaboration between Microsoft VE and Dassault 3DVIA ?
http://maps.live.com/Help/en-us/VE3DVIADownload.htm |
Post by jayr // Jan 24, 2009, 2:00pm
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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I'm not sure where the idea that MS bought tS to 'populate VE with 3d buildings' comes from. I've always assumed this was the tip of the iceberg. tS makes excellent and extensive use of MS DX9 Shader technology - a technology that is only going to grow as PC's get moore and moore powerful (note clever reference to Moore's Law ).
Shared Spaces and realtime interactivity will likewise become exponentially moore effective over time. MS's development gurus will not be thinking about what trueSpace can do for MS today but what it can do in 5,10 or even 15 years time.
I believe the modular approach tS takes with the link editor and the Rosetta technology behind it is also likely to be a major factor that will appeal to MS. The open ended nature of nodal editing ensures massive adaptability and expansion potential for the future.
MS has already announced it's commitment to multi-core 64 bit processing in the future - parallel processing is the up and coming name of the game and if I understand things correctly the Rosetta architecture is ideally suited for this type of computing.
In short, trueSpace has MUCH more going for it than it's ability to make models for VE - as a 3d application it is already potentially future-proofed to a large extent.
I agree with you there Wizard (and dragoneye!). Even a company as big as MS won'y buy a company or tachnology if thinks it won't profit from it somehow.
I've got a feeling they could be heading towards making TS into a tool to make games for the X-box or something. |
Post by Emma // Jan 24, 2009, 11:02pm
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Emma
Total Posts: 344
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I've got a feeling they could be heading towards making TS into a tool to make games for the X-box or something
I doubt that this is the case, economical situation is much harder than most seem to realize
http://www.futuregpu.org/2009/01/end-of-era-aces-studio-and-flight-sim.html
and a 24 hour reaction time, just 2 emails for those concered by decisons made somewhere on higher levels because of this should make each one understandable what is going on.
In such times it was always best advise to find a way back to the basics, work together with the help of a comunity and be satisfied with smaller wishes
For trueSpace therefore I see it with delight that some of the comunity are working now on enhancements by plugins or scriptings. The more will do it the better the chance to get through all this. There are many very talented people here and as long as there was a company in the background to whom you could "push your wishes and desire" there seemed to be no need for them to invest own work into this. It for sure is time to do it now andfor all those still hazitating I would say: A few peopel won't be able to pull an air plane on a rope, a hundred will be and maybe a two hundred will be able to rise it up into the air to fly. |
Post by prodigy // Jan 25, 2009, 3:56am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused:
Flight Sim is dead???
Seems MS is not at good shape...
cross your fingers guys, cross your fingers.. |
Post by wireframe // Jan 25, 2009, 8:06am
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wireframe
Total Posts: 62
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After Imagine from Impulse an Truespace now it is the same ... for customers
Not any really V-Ray bug fixes for month now no more V-Ray for TS and a still never finished Truespace with strange workspace / model widget ...
thanks M$ and Caligari :confused::confused::confused:
Phil |
Post by marcel // Jan 25, 2009, 9:11am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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In these times of crisis, the immediate return is a priority. That is why we unhesitatingly removes everything that does not money (Google Lively and more). It is a mistake because once the economy picks up, first-served will be those who will have a competitive edge over others. Unfortunately, the lessons of the past are useless.
Most alarming is the silence of the Caligari team on this thread despite several invitations to explain. I do not know what to think... :o |
Post by spyfrog // Jan 25, 2009, 9:27am
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spyfrog
Total Posts: 181
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:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused:
Flight Sim is dead???
Seems MS is not at good shape...
cross your fingers guys, cross your fingers..
Even worse - no Trainsimulator 2!
That is the second time that title has been axed. Both time they had a great deal of development in them. I don't understand why you kill a product that is almost finished! Sad, sad.
My guess is that Kunji and Auran has a small celebration today. |
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