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A spot of fishing.
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They are retained here for archive purposes only.
A spot of fishing. // Work in Progress
Post by W!ZARD // May 26, 2007, 9:48am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Like most gnomes in the Fairy Wood Burt enjoyed a spot of fishing - but sometimes he really wished he had a PSP!
My First real tS 7.5 picture and my 1001st post to these forums.:D
This started out by me exploring the fabulous soft paint tool. I started with some spheres and soft painted them into rocks and an interesting dead tree. After I'd textured them I thought - hmmn, needs plants so I started exploring tS 7.5 hair tools. After I'd made some grasses it became obvious the scene needed a gnome.
This took a while to get together and I learned a lot as I went. Made my gnome using MakeHuman and imported him into ts 7.5. Tweaked his mesh a lot in the Workspace and then textured him in the modeller side (I don't have V-ray or much interest in it until it's ME is as good as the LightWorks ME).
Back in Workspace I made Burt some hair, including eyebrows and beard. Made a skeleton, got stuck, got helped out by TrueBlue (cheers dude), and finally figured out how to pose my gnome. I was much easier than I expected.
Built fishing rod using PE in modeller. Imported some extra trees, some mushrooms and my two fairy's from earlier scenes and started test renders.
Background image is a pic from a set of woodland images I won as part of my recent win at 3dcommune. Lighting is very simple - an IBL using he same image as the background shader and a projector light using a simple black and white mask to create dappled shadows.
I'm pretty happy with what I have so far but sure as eggs are eggs if I post this in the Finished artwork forum everyone will point out things I can fix or do better. So fire away folks - please let me know what you think and any suggestions you may have to make this a better pic.
Thanks in advance.
WZRD |
Post by skipper // May 26, 2007, 10:09am
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skipper
Total Posts: 113
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Let's assume I would have the tools to create such a render, there's no way I would be able to do so in such are short time.
So you wanted constructive criticism, alright, here goes:
1. The fairies, if you hadn't mentionned them, they would have gone unnoticed. I had to play a little spot-the-looney game to even find them. I'm not up to speed on fairies, but aren't they supposed to glow? :)
2. The way the gnome is sitting looks very painful, unnatural even. The legs appear to be at a very awkward angle, I suppose he could be sitting on something or have his boots hanging into the water.
3. Shouldn't there be a reflection of the gnome (and the trees behind him) in the water?
And that is all I can think of, great job as always. :) |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // May 26, 2007, 10:46am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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Very nice nature scene. Nice tree (I'm currently making one so I know it's not easy!). Praise over, now for the crits....
The fairies - too hidden. Need a subtle golden glow. Mask them out and add it in post.
Burt - good idea but he's really letting the side down. He looks like a badly deformed inflatible! The very first thing I noticed in this pic are his legs, they just look plain wrong. Next was his hands/arms. His right arm looks far too short compared to his left and the hand looks like it's been rotated a painful amount. His left hand looks like two, giving the impression that there's three hands there in some bizarre perspective trick. The hair looks glued on. Nice rod though! Sorry to be negative but I suspect it's more MH's fault than yours! :-)
So, to summarise, apart from Burt I really like it. |
Post by MadMouse // May 26, 2007, 1:21pm
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Sorry Stephen but I'm going to have to agree with Kate & skipper. Burt's legs look all wrong to me to, as do his hands. I think the fairies are overkill and the whole scene is a little dark. Sorry if I sound negative but you did ask. Over all I really like this piece but you could do a lot to improve it mate.
Steve |
Post by kena // May 26, 2007, 6:28pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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I like the faries being there, but I would add some sort of glow to them if you can. also move them about. Ever notice that in nature, Odd numbers oughtweigh the even numbers? You need another fairy to balance this one.
It seems too dark to me as well.
also Burt's hair is too thick - looks like you used polimer clay
same with the body - polimer clay wthout proping him up right for the 15 mn in the oven to harden. ;)
Move the right hand to the reel, drop his feet in the water, and add reflections for the water istelf.
I know.... this means a trip to MakeHuman to completly re-do the whole thing... sorry.
these might help:
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/kimmelgnomes_1951_5057921
http://www.tradition-shop.de/images/622-1-2006.jpg
http://www.cix.co.uk/~museumgh/tools3.htm
http://www.allplaz.com/acatalog/Medium_Sized_Garden_Gnomes.html |
Post by W!ZARD // May 28, 2007, 7:23am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Well thanks for the honesty! I did ask! :D
So there's no real consensus on the fairys - Madmouse thinks they're unneccessary, kena thinks I should add another (good point about even numbers too). Kate and Skipper think the fairys should glow - but I think that's too Disney for me and I think that glowing might not be a wise survival characteristic for a creature that's supposed to stay hidden. I kinda like that they are not at all obvious at first glance and only become revealed to those who take the time to look. So I'm not yet decided on the fairies.
Poor old Burt seems to be the one letting the team down. Here is a realtime render of him before I posed him so you can see he looks a bit lumpy and inflatable right from the get go.:) . His legs don't look that bad from other perspectives - I posed them to conform to the shape of the rock he's sitting on. His arms are also both the same length so we can only blame my beginners skills with tS 7.5 character tools.
Same goes for his hair. Sadly (and somewhat annoyingly) the new tS hair does not seem to render very well with LightWorks so I've probably made it too fat in an attempt to compensate. Unless I'm missing something in the settings?
Burts hand position is down to me not creating enough bones for detailed posing - I'd already invested a great deal of time learning how to get Burt into the admittedly awkward pose he is in and I was starting to get tired of wrestling with him.
The posing abilities of MakeHuman allow for quite subtle and natural looking poses but posing in MakeHuman and the textureing in trueSpace is a bit limiting as you have to totally retexture your model if you want to change the pre-posed posture.:(
The posing abilities of the new tS character tools require a lot of finicky setting up to get adequate control over the mesh. No doubt greater familiarity on my part with the tS posing tools will help. The setting up of IK handles and locks is just plain confusing when trying to learn it from the current manual and it's frustrating for me as an artist to have to put aside the 'art' side of things to learn the technical side. Still, this can only get better the more I play with the new tools - Rome wasn't burnt down in a day ...(?).
The darkness aspect mentioned by several is a result of me using a different monitor to my usual one - I'm not used to it's dfifferent way of handling colours yet.
Kena - I don't have to go back to MakeHuman at all - I just need to re rig him in tS with a little more subtlety ;).
Skipper, good call on the reflections - I'll look into that.
Kate - I'm glad you're still talking to me after I let all those avatars loose on your Stone Worship pic :o
Thanks to all for commenting - anyone else? |
Post by Nez // May 28, 2007, 10:30pm
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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W!zard
I like the scene a lot and don't particulalry have an issue with the 'darkness' - it seems to be quite a shady spot with all that foliage, so a bit of gloom is maybe appropriate. I can understand your point on the fairies following you previous discussions on the matter - glowing would seem to be a somewhat contrary to survival instincts...
The point on reflections is probably a good one - the water looks great but that would probably help tie elements together. But I have to say the legs were the first thing I noticed too - look really uncomfortable.
Perhaps you could sit on a suitable object (or get someone else to) and photograph it as a reference for your manipulation of the legs? To me the one knee (on the right as you look at the picture) looks almost 'crumpled' as if a rag doll leg had been bent and the feet don't seem to be rotated correctly for the legs being in that position - with the thighs splayed open like that, I'd expect the feet to turn outwards more?
A very promising scene though - I knew you'd come up with something good with TS7.5... I can only continue to look on with envy... |
Post by weaveribm // May 28, 2007, 10:53pm
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Wizard are you posing the gnome in MakeHuman and then bringing him into his fishing spot? The humans to me inside that application appear to know all about the human's range of movement but maybe you're bringing him over un-manipulated and bending his legs and without the required physiological knowledge you're setting his limbs to un-natural angles perhaps? No offence implied, physiology students here study this for three years and still get it wrong. Our skullbound software makes us spot deviations from proper ROM very quickly, something looks wrong even if we don't quite know why
Not glowing fairies how can you tell them from gnomes then :)
Maybe diaphanous, semi-transparent and just a bit of a glow?
Very nice scene sir and as everyone knows, fairies will try to steal fish they need the scales and fins to fashion their wings. If they can't net butterflies. They're definitely up to no good in that camouflage kit
Peter |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 28, 2007, 11:12pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I think a way to make the fairies stand out more would be to give them more colorful iridescent wings.
I'm not real keen on the gnome guy at all though... I just don't like the way MakeHuman models look... sorry... :(
-Jack. |
Post by W!ZARD // May 30, 2007, 2:32am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks for the input guys -
@Nez - thanks for the observations on Burts knees - I suspect that I have the sleletons knee joint in the wrong place leading to the unnatural deformations. It's on the list of things to do when I get some time to get back to this project (hopefully later tonight).
@weaveribm - Yeah Peter the Makehuman poses are more 'natural' although sometimes a little limited in range. I imported Burt into tS in the standard Vitruvian Man/ arms outstretched position, specifically as a learning exercise to teach myself the new tS character tools. Obviously I've still got some learning to do!!:D
You are perfectly correct with your comments about physiology - the mind does tend to see what it expects to see rather than what is actually there. I have done a series of life drawing classes (many moons ago) and so I should, in theory, know better. ;)
The difference between gnomes and fairies depends totally on what school you went to! For me, gnomes are Earth spirits - they are clothed, wear boots and usually pointed hats and don't have wings - think tortoises, badgers, moles etc. Fairys are Air spirits and should be naked or so flimsily attired as to be effectively naked - think small birds, dragonflies or (those irritatingly cute and goody goody) butterflies. They do not glow (Walt Disney has a lot to answer for).
I think a way to make the fairies stand out more would be to give them more colorful iridescent wings.
I'm not real keen on the gnome guy at all though... I just don't like the way MakeHuman models look... sorry... :(
-Jack.
Iridescent wings? Now thats a superb suggestion! I shall look into that idea thanks Jack.
I'm curious though - what is it that you don't like about MakeHuman models? The program is extremely versatile and you can make an infinite number of variations. It seems to me that in the hands of a skilled user (which I am far from being) in a final render a MH model would be indistinguishable from say a poser or DAZ model or a well made custom model. I'd be interested to know your thinking behind this.
Thanks again folks. |
Post by Steinie // May 30, 2007, 3:16am
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Steinie
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The light that is getting through looks Halegon. I would warm it up a bit and like a lot of others have suggested raise the intensity slightly. Burts face looks pale too and the lighting suggestion would help him also. The light striking the tree stump is just about right except for temperature. Fairies in the picture...didn't see them until mentioned. |
Post by Shike // May 30, 2007, 4:00am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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I think the Fairies was a great touch...but I didn't see them until Skipper pointed them out. :D
About the darkness... yes it's abit dark. Are you using Photoshop/PaintShopPro/Gimp ?
A method I learned from a Lighting and Rendering book is to always check the
histogram of the image to see how well the distribution between light and dark is done.
Below is the histogram in Gimp of your picture, and everything is in the dark area, similar to underexposure in photography.(unless that was what you where aiming at?)
6492
(All my images from before I got that book is underexposed since I had my monitor-settings completely wrong. :o )
Below is your image with a Levels-adjustment. (though it's better to adjust the lights in the scene)
6493 |
Post by W!ZARD // May 30, 2007, 4:27am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks guys - the lighting is not finalised as yet but thanks for the input. Steinie you're right - the 'sunlight' is too white as it is.
Thanks Lars - that's a useful tip about the histogram - I knew about it before but the real trick is to remember to use it!
I am going for a slightly dark look - (the original idea was to give Burt a mobile phone and have his face lit by the phones display :D ) the dappled shadow/secret forested place feel is what I'm after but... it's still a WIP. I'm busy exploring options for improving the look of Burts hair, I just don't like itas it is - it's bothering me more than the fairy's and the dislocated legs combined! |
Post by Shike // May 30, 2007, 5:28am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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Thanks Lars - that's a useful tip about the histogram - I knew about it before but the real trick is to remember to use it!
Yup, the weird thing is that I needed the book to understand that use for it. :o
Before that I just though it was a pointless tool for counting pixels ;)
About the Gnome..the biggest problem with him is:
if I suddenly found myself wandering around in a magical forest with fairies and found a fishing gnome...the most strange thing would be to learn that his name is "Burt" !? ;)
( yes, I know, my own history of naming my creations isn't the best...but I couldn't resist :D ) |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 30, 2007, 9:23am
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Jack Edwards
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You're certainly welcome about the wings idea. :)
It's hard to put my finger on what it is that I don't like about the MakeHuman models. It's sort of the same thing with the poser models. They just seem visually flat and uninteresting. It may just be an issue with texture and lighting though... people really need mapped specular, and little things like faint showing blood vessels and color variation to make the skin look more real. Same with the clothing. It needs mapped reflectance and normal mapping to bring out the texture and material.
I would used alpha mapped planes for the hair. I think that's still the simplest approach, but you could also create scalp objects and use TS hair.
BTW the forest and mood are really nice.
-Jack. |
Post by W!ZARD // May 31, 2007, 8:53am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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@ Lars - "the most strange thing would be to learn that his name is "Burt" !? " - LOL! Yeah well that's sort of why I choose that name! I guess I tend to think of gnomes as being somewhat earthy, practical chaps who do earthy, practical things - sort of like the tradesmen (tradesgnomes?) of the magical realms. Thus prosaic, earthy names, like 'Burt' or 'Graham' or 'Eric', seem most suitable for these characters.
It's probably my English heritage showing through as well - it's a little like Tolkeins Hobbits with their quintessential British Country Folk quality.
@Jack - "They just seem visually flat and uninteresting." Ah OK I see what you mean - a lot of poser images appear to me to lack appropriate shadowing which does create a sort of flatness. My gnome also has had no detailed texturing on his face yet - I plan to eventually give him some traditionally gnomic rosy cheeks and so on and the only reason I've not done soyet is I'm still not sure how big he should be in the image - originally I intended him to be only a quarter of the size he is now.
Re his hear - I've used scalp objects and tS hair in the already posted pics. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to get good results with tS hair in LightWorks renders. I have been working on a slightly different approach but my ongoing health issues have had me away fro my PC lately - hopefully I'll be able to make some further progress today.:D
Thanks guys. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 31, 2007, 8:54pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Hope you're feeling better soon Wizard. This has the potential to be a top notch piece. :)
-Jack. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 3, 2007, 6:18pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hope you're feeling better soon Wizard. This has the potential to be a top notch piece. :)
-Jack.
Thanks Jack - I appreciate the kind wishes. My health is somewhat imprtoved however I've recently received my copy of MojoWorld 3 Pro and I've been struggling up he learning curve with that. Not to fear though, Burt is on the back burner but he is not forgotten ;) |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 21, 2007, 3:39am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Burt's back for another spot of fishing - he's trying a different fishing place and is sporting all new hair.
This picture has been something of a trial for me and has greatly added to my understanding of tS bones too. When I finally got it all organised I started getting a series of fatal rendering errors and had to deconstruct the whole scene to locate the dodgy components that were upsetting the renderer -somehow I had copied a couple of the rocks without realising.
Anyway here it is - dunno how happy I am with it really given that it's caused me so much frustration but on the brighter side I've learnt a lot from the process.
Calling Steinie and anyone else with an opinion.... what do you think? |
Post by rrf // Jun 21, 2007, 3:54am
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rrf
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I think if your Center of Interest is to be the 'Elf', he needs more color and/or light/contrast to draw the eye to him. He fades into the scene too much right now. The same can be said for the Fairies - I think they blend in way too much too, although it makes for excitement in the viewer when they do 'find' them :)
I think the plant, a fern is it?, just behind the stump where the Gnome or Elf is sitting is distracting.
I think the stump that the fairy is sitting on needs something to make it look less like a sculpture or rock (unless that's what you had intended) Perhaps make that 'lump' she's sitting on a Fungus (like a shelf)
I love the shadows and dappled light, water's good too
I know you didn't model the background, but it looks good - from your 'neck of the woods' ?
hope this helps,
rf |
Post by rrf // Jun 21, 2007, 3:58am
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rrf
Total Posts: 319
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Also, the fairies wings look like the texture of Bat wings - maybe they need to be more like Butterflys?
rf |
Post by Forcemaster2000 // Jun 21, 2007, 4:02am
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Forcemaster2000
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Incredible looking image Wizard!
I love the new pose for Burt(?) Much more realistic looking than before. The hair looks good, although maybe a little too "course" and "thick". But I haven't really messed with hair in TS, since it tends to bog my computer down to a stand-still.
I really love the fairies in the background. I really didn't even notice them at first, until I started to really look. I like how they blend in to the scene, just as magical fairies should!
Lighting looks great, but if your computer could handle it, (and you could handle the render times!), some volumetric light shafts coming down through the forest canopy would really increase the ambiance of the scene.
*edit* Just saw Rrf's post and have to agree with him about the fairy wings, my first thought was they looked like "moth" wings. Maybe make them more translucent, and a little brighter. Also, it would look cool if you did some post work on it and gave the fairy that's flying a little "sparkly fairy dust" around her? |
Post by rrf // Jun 21, 2007, 4:06am
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rrf
Total Posts: 319
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(Oh boy..I'm on a roll now...)
Try putting your hand (or something..a piece of paper) and covering the right hand side of the composition (effectively cropping that side). it seems to me that the 'idea' for the piece...the Gnome or Elf fishing is stronger, don't you think?
Again, hope this helps ( as I duck out of the way of W!ZARD's strongest spell...:))
rf |
Post by skipper // Jun 21, 2007, 7:04am
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skipper
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Nice improvements on Burt and the water reflections.
I had a longer comment, but vBulletin ate it, and I apologize for that. (Between us, vBulletin sUcks.)
Anyway, I really like the recreations of natural environments that you keep producing. :) |
Post by kena // Jun 21, 2007, 7:43am
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kena
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To balance the scene, I would put the faeries on the right side of the frame, instead of behind Burt. Other than that, and I'm on a work pc, so it looks a bit dark, it is very nice. NOTE: it is probably NOT a bit dark, this is a work monitor, so NOTHING is bright enough :D |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jun 21, 2007, 10:56am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I agree with the others that the right side of the image is now unbalanced. Maybe the fern which others didn't like behind the stump could be moved to the right side and something of interest could be placed in the water on that side as well?
Also I agree that the wings should be more translucent an like you know... fairy wings. ;) Perhaps you could use a texture from an insect wing? It may be easier to add the glow/sparkle effect in post though...
It's a shame you didn't get VRay Wizard. I think your work would benefit tremendously from using the VRay engine instead of lightworks.
-Jack. |
Post by trueSpaced // Jun 21, 2007, 3:31pm
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trueSpaced
Total Posts: 544
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It's looking great W!ZARD! Just a couple of things...
1. Maybe I'm just stupid or blind (or both), but I don't see a shadow being cast by the elf guy.
2. It looks like there's hair coming out of his face!
3. ...... that's about it...
Great job W!ZARD, this scene definitely has potential!:D
-TrueSpaced:banana: |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 21, 2007, 11:39pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks for the comments folks - I'm really tired of looking at this picture given that it's taken so long to get to this stage - unfortunately what you are all saying is perfectly valid so I'm going to have another go at this one.... soon.
Re the fairys - I believe that Walt Disney and a thousand childrens book illustrators have grossly misrepresented fairys for far too long. Fairys are nature spirits and exist by hiding away from clear sight - thus they don't glow or leave trails of sparkly fairy dust behind them. At least, the fairys that I've seen don't!! ;)
So my fairys don't glow anymore than a woodland bird or a bumblebee glows. Sorry, but these are real fairys not your girly childrens story variety. :D
This is also the reason why Burts clothing blends into the surrounding environment so much (well, apart from the red hat which is simply a case of tradition and bad fashion sense!).
( as I duck out of the way of W!ZARD's strongest spell...) Chuckle! Fear not rrf - real Wizards, like any users of real magic, know that what you put out comes back to you three times over. Thus, if I were to turn you into a frog (a fairly simple low level spell ;) ) it's inevitable that someone else would turn me into an amoeba before the week was out! Therefore I send you my thanks and appreciation for sharing your insights with me - it's all about sharing the love!!
It's a shame you didn't get VRay Wizard. I think your work would benefit tremendously from using the VRay engine instead of lightworks. Hmmn. Maybe... my dire financial arrangements make Vray an investment I'm unable to make at present. Also to be honest I really love the LightWorks renderer - I guess some painters prefer watercolours to oils and others prefer acryllics. Maybe I can win a few more monthly gallerys and win myself a Vray licence....
1. ..... I don't see a shadow being cast by the elf guy.
2. It looks like there's hair coming out of his face!
1. The shadow is there although much of it falls into a gap between the rock he's sitting on and the next rock so you can only see the pointy shadow from his hat and the strqaggly shadow from his hair.
2. There is hair coming out of his face - it's called a beard! He also has straggles of fringe hanging in front of his face. |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Jun 22, 2007, 2:30am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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Looks much better. Bert's new position is more logical but artistically he leaves a huge hole in the middle of the pic. Bert himself is looking better but there's a couple of things that still jar with me - his left leg looks like it's been snapped off at the knee and roughly propped up to hide the fact. I'm sure it's just the shadow but it doesn't look like it's part of one body. Also, his face - he looks far too young for the impression of his age being implied by his hair, body mass and stoop. Whatever is under the reel of the fishing rod is distracting and makes it look like a small keyboard.
I like the fairies being 'hidden' as it gives an 'ooh, didn't notice that before, wonder what else is in here' feel and prompts repeated viewings and I love the trees, they look really good.
Much better than it was before though so it's getting there - keep at it! |
Post by weaveribm // Jun 22, 2007, 3:51am
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weaveribm
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Very atmospheric now Wizard, there's more of a backstory with the observing faeries and altogether very shaded-glade-like
Peter |
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