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Box Modeling Whole Figure
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Box Modeling Whole Figure // Work in Progress
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 15, 2007, 8:45am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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Hello
I am trying a new way of modeling for me. I usually work the seperate parts of a figure then put them together. This time I am trying to model the whole figure at once to try to get a more uniform looking mesh. So attached is the big boxey start of my character. It needs tons of refinements and tweaking of course. It will get better I promise. I just thought it would be cool to post my progress and get feedback as I go. I am using reference photos from 3d.sk. It took me a little longer to do this than it usually does as I am just returning to ts after some absence and am getting used to the workspace tools. |
Post by Ambrose // Jun 15, 2007, 8:49am
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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Looks pretty good!
Apply a level or two of SDS and you'll see ;)
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 15, 2007, 1:51pm
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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I made some progress. Getting there slowly. |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 15, 2007, 5:28pm
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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Ok I'm a little frustrated. I am trying to refine the face but when i apply sds it is not smoothing properly. It is dividing the faces but it is still all boxy. It seems where ever I altered the edges using add edge it doesn't smooth off right. Instead of creating an even smooth there seems to be some direction applied to the edges that disrupts the surface. How am I supposed to get a smooth surface? The model side of the program seems to smooth a lot better than the workspace side does. Does anyone use the workspace sds? If this is going to be the replacement sds it needs work. Or am I just messing something up? |
Post by GrimMoroe // Jun 16, 2007, 1:41am
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GrimMoroe
Total Posts: 50
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Its all boxy because you are getting way ahead of yourself. Before adding edge loops you have to shape what you have the best you can. If you just start adding geometry without shaping every vertice you end up with an uncontrollable mess. Right now you have a lot of geometry and no real shape. To be honest I would either delete a lot of your edge loops and refine your shape or just start over. I will show you what I mean in a little bit when I can get a cap of a low rez mesh.
HTH |
Post by Tiles // Jun 16, 2007, 1:54am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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I would also suggest not to model it in one piece. You will get mad with the other meshparts being always in the way while modeling at the head for example. |
Post by GrimMoroe // Jun 16, 2007, 2:41am
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GrimMoroe
Total Posts: 50
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I personally would recommend keeping things as one mesh, but that is just me I guess. If you break up your mesh you will have problems controlling your edge loops as they will run through the entire mesh. The biggest thing I see people make mistakes on is they don't keep their geometry simple...especially if you plan to use SDS, I can not stress this enough....keep things simple and it will be a lot easier to control your mesh and poly flow. the thing that I see is your mesh doesn't follow the flow of muscles in the face....same with your body. It will be hard to animate your mesh and get it to deform right. Topology of your mesh is the most important part of modeling...make sure you control your mesh and it doesn't control your direction and flow.
Here are some reference images that will help you.
http://www.freedom-of-teach.com/downloads/files/organdvd.zip
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/GrimMoroe/Head.jpg |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 16, 2007, 3:08am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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I was showing sds faces in that render so it looks a lot more complex than it is. Here is a pic of it with just the geometry I created. So I think it will be workable still. Thanks for the advice. I will work on getting a better edge flow and shaping. I am glad it is my error and not truespace, that means I can fix it. Thanks for that muscle reference, that will help a lot.
Thanks folks! |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 16, 2007, 5:56am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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As I'm tweaking and changing edges I am finding the sds gets worse and worse. I made better edge loops but it just got boxier. So I did a little testing. I moved the model to the model side and it smoothed properly. Then I removed sds on the model side and moved back to the workspace. Then when I applied sds on the workspace side it smoothed as expected. All the edge loops were still there when i went to select edge loop, so it did not destroy the structure at all. I think there is just something wrong with the new sds. Take a look at my results below and let me know if I should submit this to bug reports. |
Post by GrimMoroe // Jun 16, 2007, 7:29am
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GrimMoroe
Total Posts: 50
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The problem is not in TS workspace, I have done all my work on the workspace side and have not had any of the problems you are describing. The problem is in your mesh flow and not using the smooth shaded setting in the material editor. To prove this I applied SDS to my mesh and do not have the boxy problem you described. By the way I get the same results on both sides so....
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/GrimMoroe/head2.jpg |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Jun 16, 2007, 8:17am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Workspace does make use of vertex normals which can behave differently than the material based ones on the model side but I'm not sure if this is the issue.
Try using this tool and it should give you a much smoother blend (save your work first of course). I'm not sure if you should be backed out of SDS all the way to the base mesh or not to use it though. May take some experimenting. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jun 16, 2007, 8:25am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Hi 3D frog,
A lot of the problem you are having has to do with your edge loops not following the structure of the face.
You can compare Grim's example also with a head model I was working on before my computer died and had to upgrade:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=1512
Mine also has a few issues with SDS. Grim's topology is defintiely better. Even though my mesh is higher res than Grim's, the loops in Grim's are much better placed to describe the geometry. (Nice work Grim btw! ;))
Also a good trick which I learned from Nowherebrain's video tutorials is that refaceting the model after making geometry changes helps remove the odd faceting in Workspace. The refacet tool is in the same flyout as the UV and material tools.
Hope that helps!
-Jack. |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 16, 2007, 8:31am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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AH YAY! thats it professor. It was all in smoothing the surface normals. I am so happy. Now I don't have to go back and forth between model and workspace.
Thanks so much grim for helping out. I will try to improve my geometry too.
Thanks jack. I am going to definitely check out that tutorial video. |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 16, 2007, 10:01am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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Edge loops and tweaks are getting better. Think I'll try to define some ear work now. |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 16, 2007, 12:21pm
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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started the ear. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 16, 2007, 9:23pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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The problems with the edge tension could be solved by turning off your SDS, jumping into "model", return to "workspace", and adding a level of SDS. This will make it smooth.
SDS is a tool like any other, if the model does not look presentable without it, it generally will look un-professional with it. You started strong and seemed to "get ahead of yourself" as stated earlier, but keep it up. Practice is everything.;) |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 17, 2007, 3:11am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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Thanks nowhere brain. I will keep practicing. I am going to get your tutorial soon.
I have been trying to do this model without the use of a tutorial. I'm trying to test out my intuition. I guess my modeling intuition isn't so great yet because folks on subdivisionmodeling.com forums are telling me to look at wires too :) I'll get it one of these days. I'm gonna give it a few more days going on intuition and see what I come up with, then back to tutorials. I think it is good to do both, although I may be being premature in my efforts here.
Anyway, here's where the head is now. Are the loops looking any better? I think I should work a little more on the body and take a look at the head again later. It's fathers day here in USA today so I won't have much time for it today.
I saw ratatouille last night at a sneak preview show. It was spectacular. I think it is my favorite pixar movie yet. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 17, 2007, 5:12am
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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You are improving, everyone is different. You may not need the tutorials just some more modeling. Although the watch a tutorial, make your attempt, and watch tut again..sounds like a logical process. When I started(I'm always trying to improve) tutorials cost a couple hundered dollars, so I've never actually bought any, but there are wireframe images everywhere...they are a good piece of info in themselves. |
Post by GrimMoroe // Jun 17, 2007, 8:57am
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GrimMoroe
Total Posts: 50
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3dfrog: Be very selective of what tutorials you buy and learn from because if you learn something the wrong way it will only make it harder for you to learn the right way. If I were you I would study anatomy before I learned any method of modeling the human form. Without the basic understanding of what to and not to model you will only slow yourself down in the learning process. Proportions and muscle flow are everything and without a good anatomy foundation your models will suffer from it. I hear so many people make excuses for their models having bad anatomy like "I wasn't going for realism" and so on. Before you can exaggerate proportions you still need a good foundation of anatomy, so take some time and learn as much as you can about it. Now you can do what you like I am only trying to help you from making the same mistakes I made when I started learning character modeling. |
Post by Ambrose // Jun 17, 2007, 9:00am
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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Hi 3DFrog
You're doing really really good here.
Only thing missing is a more natural flow.
That is the lines should follow through in a natural way not end up or start and break etc. no where from no where.
You done the basic and before continuing now and do to much detail that will be hard to change later on you need to move the vertixes so they flow natural, remove or add where needed.
You know when done because you can see the face ready when done, it becomes a face, not just looking good as now ;)
Keep it up, more good work in front...
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by RichLevy // Jun 17, 2007, 11:11am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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This anatomy tutorial is based on Maya, but it translate very well over to TS7.5 WS also. I love this DVD for it's simplicity, the approach and the teching style. As Grim Moroe suggests do not run to every tutorial you see on the net, you are just going to get confused with all of the different teaching methods.
http://freedom-of-teach.com/products/prod_category.php?sect=products&pid=cat_anatomy
Everyone has an approach to modeling that they learn through a trial by error method, this method will fit their personal style and personality. The best approach as has been suggested by others here is to learn to model by knowing how the anatomy of the subject works in real life. This will allow you to build your models to that edgeflow.
After finding a tutorial style that you can follow easily, follow it, practice it till it is second nature. Practice making ears, arms, legs, torso's... lean them all and know how to make them, learn to do anything, bi-peds, quad-peds, flying creatures, walking, crawling, slithering...
And most of all have a ton of fun in the process :D It ain't worth doing if you do not have fun doing it.
Rich |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 17, 2007, 2:06pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Just so you don't get frustrated here, I want you to know that your face and somewhat the ear follow the basic guidelines fairly well. It is far more improved than the mid way through the thread versions.
BTW @ GrimMoroe: I just realized yesterday... you made a statement earlier about the loops near my joints being too close...(excuses here:D ) I never thought too much of it, but the thing was that the limbs were actually separated from the rest of the mesh and pushed in real close...just had to defend myself a bit, cause I was racking my brain for nearly a week trying to figure out what you meant....now I feel better.:p |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 17, 2007, 2:57pm
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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Wow, such great and helpful responses. Thanks so much everyone. This is a great forum.
That maya tutorial looks great. It looks like from the samples that it is all box modeling. Is it? I don't want to do modeling by edge extrusions. I wanna do all box modeling. I don't even think ts has edge extrusions, does it? Anyway, when I have money again I will probably get that tutorial, I am in the process of making my monthly payments to caligari right now. But I will get nowherebrain's tutorial soon as i finish this model.
I have been doing spline modeling the past couple of years, so getting back to polys is taking some time. I don't even think I worried about stuff like spline loops and poles when I last used to use truespace. What can I say, I am a :banana:
Anyway, attached is where the model is looking now. |
Post by RichLevy // Jun 17, 2007, 3:16pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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Wow, such great and helpful responses. Thanks so much everyone. This is a great forum.
That maya tutorial looks great. It looks like from the samples that it is all box modeling. Is it? I don't want to do modeling by edge extrusions. I wanna do all box modeling. I don't even think ts has edge extrusions, does it? Anyway, when I have money again I will probably get that tutorial, I am in the process of making my monthly payments to caligari right now. But I will get nowherebrain's tutorial soon as i finish this model.
I have been doing spline modeling the past couple of years, so getting back to polys is taking some time. I don't even think I worried about stuff like spline loops and poles when I last used to use truespace. What can I say, I am a :banana:
Anyway, attached is where the model is looking now.
All 100% box modeling. Very basic tools, most of them are in TS. I don't think there is a way to spin and edge yet, but you can do that manually.
Model is taking shape nicely, good luck.
Rich |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 17, 2007, 4:30pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Yeah, I'm praying(so to speak) for edge tools...were you spline modeling in Lightwave by chance? That is a road I've traveled many times. If you still plan on buying my series check out the freebies first, I will begin the figure(torso etc...) this coming week. I want it up by the end of the following week. |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 18, 2007, 11:30am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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I've been modeling in animation master, I still do, it's fun. But I want to join the rest of the world with polys too. I am gonna try to find my niche in truespace. Hopefully I'll be able to realize my idea of doing accident reconstruction.
I brought back up the reference photos and did a big rework of the shaping of the head. I think it's looking better. I guess my idea of working the whole figure at once was kind of lost as I been doing so much with the head, but it is the most challenging part. |
Post by jayr // Jun 18, 2007, 11:34am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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Thats pretty good so far, the eyes and mouth need a little more work though. What does it look like now without the sds applied? |
Post by 3dfrog // Jun 18, 2007, 12:03pm
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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no sds. Needs a little clean up. |
Post by Stickman // Jun 18, 2007, 1:22pm
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Stickman
Total Posts: 34
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Looking good, but for some reason it looks like the ears is sitting to high, but I don't think they do. :confused: |
Post by kena // Jun 18, 2007, 1:22pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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ok - the close-up did it for me... You have the body of a 30 year old and the head of an 11 year old. Was wondering what was throwing me on this. To age the head a bit, make it a bit longer. |
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