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Panic!
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Panic! // Archive: Tech Forum
Post by Burisman // Mar 8, 2007, 1:56am
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Burisman
Total Posts: 128
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Hi, yesterday I read in one of the threads about the SIMBIONT shaders.
Nice,.. so I found it on the web and installed the plugin and a folder of shaders.
I even used it to make sketches for a project in another thread of the forums.
Today TS (7.11) simply refused to start. So I undid the SIMBIONT installation and I removed the prepared shaders.
Only when TS starts, it keeps asking for the plugin, AND it will not show the grid, only a grey surface. Something goes wrong with loading and saving scenes as well. In other words, the SIMBIONT plugin has totally f****d up an otherwise smoothly running configuration.
But there's more. since installing the plugin I can't use the windows system rollback (going back to an earlier saved state does generate an error message) AND my system detected a deep virus infection, despite the fact that I have more protection here than the Dutch Central Bank.
All occurring at the same moment. Does anyone know how to let TS know that the plugin is no longer there, so that I can use it again? |
Post by Burisman // Mar 8, 2007, 2:15am
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Burisman
Total Posts: 128
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Another option could be to re-install TS 7 perhaps. But the I'm afraid to lose the work I have put in the scene library yesterday.
Can anyone enlighten me on that subject? |
Post by Burisman // Mar 8, 2007, 3:05am
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Burisman
Total Posts: 128
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Well, I will close this thread myself. I was so frustrated that, despite the risks, I re-installed TS7. It doesn't ask for the Simbiont shader anymore (couldn't Caligari built something like that in? you can do really cool things with it, only I will not install that plugin anymore), and the scenes are still there:banana: Lesson learned. |
Post by Shike // Mar 8, 2007, 4:40am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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Odd, this is something I've never heard of.
I've been using simbiont and Darktree for many years and never had any problems at all.
After simbiont uninstall, the complaints about it being missing during ts7 start might just be that ts7 autoloads the latest scene that contained it....shouldn't be a problem though?
(I usually always click the new scene button before closing ts7...I'm sure there's a better way but never bothered to look it up ;) )
Did you get the plugin from the official site?
http://www.darksim.com/html/simbiontts.html
And if you have an up to date virus scanner it should have detected any potential viruses during the installation... otherwise it might have been a later infection that just unfortunately affected the trueSpace installation...
(assuming it actually was a virus and not just a Windows message that it "might be"...?) |
Post by Burisman // Mar 8, 2007, 5:01am
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Burisman
Total Posts: 128
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Thanks Shike,
I think you're right about TS autoloading the last scene. I wasn't able to override this problem. I think hitting the new scene button before closing is a good advice, I never did that before, but I will make it a routine gesture ;)
Yes, I did go to the official site.
The virus, ... well, I couldn't justifiably state that Simbiont has something to do with it, it's only got my attention since it is the first in many years, and I keep a close watch on them, there is even a very good virus filter working at my provider's, so they don't come in through email. It was in a Java-file. The simultaneous occurrence between downloading the stuff, and getting triouble, from Simbiont and this virus (which got detected) was just too peculiar not to question. Your observations are otherwise quite right. I will assume it was sheer coincidence :o
After re-installing, it all works fine, I might even retry Simbiont :rolleyes:
Thanks again for your reaction. |
Post by Shike // Mar 8, 2007, 5:06am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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EDIT: oops, I posted at the same time you did..:D hm, wonder if I can move my post to be before yours.. ;)
Did a quickie test and just removed the
trueSpace7\tS\Shaders\Material\SimbiontTS.tss
and when starting ts7 it gave me the message
"....not found, do you always want to show this message"
after answering No, the next ts7 startup was normal.
( and after moving the tss back, the plugin worked again )
I think you should give it another try because I seriously don't think the problems were caused by the plugin, but just appeared at a time that made it look that way.
EDIT: as you also concluded ;) |
Post by Burisman // Mar 8, 2007, 5:09am
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Burisman
Total Posts: 128
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I will certainly do that :)
Thanks very much for the advice and taking the trouble to replicate my experience. Hope I can do anything for you in the future. :jumpy:
I will reinstall the plugin right away (because you can really do beautiful things with it). |
Post by Chester Desmond // Mar 8, 2007, 5:29am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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I had the same problem in TS6.6 with it locking up after Simbiont installed. I think I did a 'safe start' (ctrl-click the TS icon to start) and it worked.I concluded the same, that the scene was looking for the Simbiont shaders and couldn;t find them. Another issue I've had since installing Simbiont is that when I right click on a material icon it takes about 20 secs to load the shader selection window (and it does so for each type ie color, bump etc) but once loaded it's fine. Any ideas? |
Post by Alien // Mar 8, 2007, 5:56am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Another issue I've had since installing Simbiont is that when I right click on a material icon it takes about 20 secs to load the shader selection window (and it does so for each type ie color, bump etc) but once loaded it's fine. Any ideas?
That's the main reason why I don't use Simbiont if I can possibly avoid it, anything I do in tS that is related to Simbiont, e.g. adjusting/changing materials, & rendering, gets slowed down considerably. |
Post by TomG // Mar 8, 2007, 6:14am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I hate having to have javascript installed on my computer - the only viruses I have ever seen on my machines ever have been ones in javascript, and they are downloaded directly from web pages, inside the little plugins the pages use for moving graphics or mini-games or interactive menus etc.
So my bet is that is exactly how you got your virus - some javascript menu on a web page, or a counter, or a calendar, or some other extra tool that the web designer thought was cool, had a virus in it. Those seem to be able to go straight onto your machine, in the "jar" files that javascript uses, and bingo, you have a virus.
They dont come in installations etc, just straight off a web page, and all you need to do is view the page.
What I find annoying is that I can't get by without java. Oh, and I always feel sure this was never the case back when MS supported java directly - its only been a big problem for me since native java support went away and I need to install this third party stuff from Sun to get it working.
So, anyway, javascript, hate it - computer has never had a single virus ever, would never ever have had any virus at all in fact, except for bloody javascript.
For the simbiont thing, I always get an error message about simbiont on start up - there is a solution, I forget what it is, I get the message because I have installed and uninstalled tS so many times that I gave up doing the final step that removes that message (since I'd only end up uninstalling again and reinstalling as part of various bits of testing). I also get the slow loading of the shader listing too - that might be related to the same thing. It was to do with moving a file from one directory to another, I think caused by Simbiont expecting itself to be in a tS5 installation or something similar, I forget... maybe someone else will have the specifics :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Alien // Mar 8, 2007, 6:28am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Tom, which browser do you use? If you use Firefox (http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/) there's an extension called NoScript (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/722/) that basically blocks all scripts unless you add the current site to the allow list [you can also do a temporary allow].
As for anti-virus, I recommend Kaspersky (http://www.kaspersky.com). |
Post by Chester Desmond // Mar 8, 2007, 6:28am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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yeah Tom, but you get paid when you have to re-install TS haha |
Post by Burisman // Mar 8, 2007, 11:57am
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Burisman
Total Posts: 128
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Thanks for your replies, all. It's a trade-off with Simbiont. The shaders are too lovely to ignore, but everything slows down to an almost intolerable degree. I have to force myself not to hit buttons twice impatiently, thereby freezing the system. Well perhaps it's now really time to upgrade :o
I agree with TomG about Javascript. I suppose some navigation gadget on a webpage inserted the suspect code in my system, ... moronic and destructive way to spend one's time, writing viruses. I will go for the NOSCRIPT extension for my Firefox, as Alien suggested. ;) |
Post by Shike // Mar 8, 2007, 10:52pm
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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... Another issue I've had since installing Simbiont is that when I right click on a material icon it takes about 20 secs to load the shader selection window (and it does so for each type ie color, bump etc) but once loaded it's fine....
Not sure exactly what you mean. If I do a clean start of tS, and in the material editor rightclick to select the Simbiont for color, it's instantly there, but that's because it's only the default blue "no simbiont file selected".
However, if I select a more complex simbiont shader and it's in color, reflectance, bump, transparancy...then it becomes slower, since it's a lot of math going on to calculate the preivew pane.
How slow usually depends on how complex I made the shader inside Darktree, compositing a lot of highly detailed noice components, or if I just make a simple shader with freznel effect (different color or reflecance at the edges of a sphere)
Overall, since the simbiont shaders are mathematical they do have their pro´s and con´s.
Pro: highly detailed and complex materials without using as memory as a texture based shader. :)
Con: it really gives your CPU a LOT to think about...so it becomes slooooow. :rolleyes:
@TomG:
Have the same experience... the only virus that reached my computer the last decade has been a java-bugger !
It was when email-pishing was starting, and I followed the link to a faked Paypal site (:o)...since the page loaded way to slow I aborted,
but it did install a java script that would have cloaked the real website address. Annoyingly it took a couple of days before
the scanner got an update that detected the little critter :rolleyes: |
Post by Shike // Mar 9, 2007, 12:13am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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Not sure if anyone's interested, but for one thing I'm curious if the Simbionts I make can be used by others...or if it requires Darktree..?
Also, I'm curious if the performance are the same for everyone or at least the difference between a simple and complex simbiont.
Here are the two shaders for download:
4780
One called Freznel (remember to turn on raytraced reflections in simbiont)
and my TBground2 shader that I used as ground in TriBeast scene.
4778
This is how they look by default.
The Freznel is just increasing the reflectance depending on view angle. (can be tweaked to simulate water by increasing transparancy and decreasing diffuse, but be warned, the render time will be much higher!)
The Ground shader is "upside" dependant. Grass and dirt on top of objects and rock on steeper slopes.
4779
This shows the complexity difference inside Darktree.
After selecting them and pressing YES on "Load Darktree in unselected shaders" I started my clock, and stopped it when the material preview window was finished (tested in trueSpace7.11):
Freznel - 1 second
TBground2 - 7 seconds
As I said...would be interesting to see if others get similar times or at least a similar difference between them.
(oh, and if anyone wants to use the shaders in their own work, feel free, no charge or credit needed :D ) |
Post by Burisman // Mar 9, 2007, 2:59am
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Burisman
Total Posts: 128
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Quite interesting Shike. I will try a clean startup WITH Simbiont next.
It's a pity Darktree is quite expensive, at least for a utility, and I have no boss to buy it for me ('cause I'm my own boss), because my fingers are itching when I see what you can do with it.
I studied your image "The Workbench" (which I took the liberty to use as desktop wallpaper now, it's great) and what you did with Darktree. Impressive, to say the least. Very educational to see a fine work like that.
Still, have to start somewhere, so that will be using and tweaking existing shaders (and thereby accepting the occasional slowness).
Thanks Lars. |
Post by Alien // Mar 9, 2007, 3:26am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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the only virus that reached my computer the last decade has been a java-bugger !
It was when email-pishing was starting, and I followed the link to a faked Paypal site (:o)...since the page loaded way to slow I aborted,
but it did install a java script that would have cloaked the real website address.
Grab yourself a copy of MailWasher. Although it will show clickable links, it puts them in a format that makes it very easy to spot bogus 1s, e.g.:
www.yoursecureandgenuinesite.com < links to http://wewillstealyourdetails.com/ >
Paid for version that can handle multiple accounts is here (http://www.firetrust.com/).
Free version that can only handle 1 account is here (http://www.mailwasher.net/).
Once you've got the hang of it you won't need to worry about getting phishing emails or virus-ridden mails [unless someone on your friends list gets infected, but that's what anti-virus progs are for :)].
Not sure if anyone's interested, but for one thing I'm curious if the Simbionts I make can be used by others...or if it requires Darktree..?
AFAIK, anyone can use them if they have the plugin, but only people with the main prog that you've got can make new shaders.
This shows the complexity difference inside Darktree.
It will be cool when people start to create stuff like that in the LE. |
Post by Shike // Mar 9, 2007, 3:36am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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Quite interesting Shike. I will try a clean startup WITH Simbiont next.
It's a pity Darktree is quite expensive, at least for a utility, and I have no boss to buy it for me ('cause I'm my own boss), because my fingers are itching when I see what you can do with it.
My boss doesn't buy me fun stuff like this ;)
A credit card and no social life is the solution :rolleyes:
But granted, it's expensive, and.. is it shaderlab or shadermagic that's free and can do basically the same thing ?...I know from another thread that at least one of them was even more powerful, but needed more skill than I have.
Also, tS7 link editor seem to work in a similar node-based way but I havn't explored that yet. EDIT: As Alien also mentioned :)
I studied your image "The Workbench" (which I took the liberty to use as desktop wallpaper now, it's great) and what you did with Darktree. Impressive, to say the least. Very educational to see a fine work like that.
Thanks ! Glad you like it! :D
EDIT:
@Alien:
The java incident was on my previous computer, and my current have spam/pishing filter in Norton Internet Security (ops, I said the N-word again ;) )
Also, IE7 has some pishing check ( why do I have a feeling you don't like that either :D )
The mailwasher way of showing the real link is pretty clever ! Wonder why Microsoft doesn't think about these obvious solutions to all their "software" aka "security risks" !? |
Post by Chester Desmond // Mar 9, 2007, 3:41am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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Not sure exactly what you mean. If I do a clean start of tS, and in the material editor rightclick to select the Simbiont for color, it's instantly there, but that's because it's only the default blue "no simbiont file selected".
No, I mean when I click on the sphere in the material editor to bring up the shaders to choose one; the box where I would select Simbiont (or brick or shaderlab or plain color etc). It's just the Simbiont icon, so no preview render is happening yet.
I'll give your DTs a go later today, thanks for sharing them. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Mar 9, 2007, 4:13am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Just out of curiosity, is there any sort of tie between the javascript in web pages and the jscript we use for our LE bricks? I think jscript is Microsoft's version of javascript (subset or superset thereof).
Reason I ask is that I do a great deal of my scripting in jscript for which I am most comfortable. Though my programming skills began on a computer with integer basic (an apple II+) I got away from the language in general only to find that the features have rapidly expanded. The basic I knew from the early 80's required line numbers on every line.
Shadermagic was a link based shader design tool and Shaderlab was script based. Shaderlab probably had more capabilities but definitely required more knowledge and effort if you were creating a new shader from scratch. I think Shadermagic would be closer to the Simbiont concept but without the cross-application possibilities that Simbiont/Darktree posessed. I've heard many good things about darktree but it is a bit rich for my budget whereas shaderlab is free now. |
Post by Chester Desmond // Mar 9, 2007, 5:01am
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Chester Desmond
Total Posts: 323
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Just so you know, Darktree can be purchased for $169 if you own the Raypak. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 9, 2007, 5:03am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Just out of curiosity, is there any sort of tie between the javascript in web pages and the jscript we use for our LE bricks? I think jscript is Microsoft's version of javascript (subset or superset thereof).
Reason I ask is that I do a great deal of my scripting in jscript for which I am most comfortable. Though my programming skills began on a computer with integer basic (an apple II+) I got away from the language in general only to find that the features have rapidly expanded. The basic I knew from the early 80's required line numbers on every line.
Shadermagic was a link based shader design tool and Shaderlab was script based. Shaderlab probably had more capabilities but definitely required more knowledge and effort if you were creating a new shader from scratch. I think Shadermagic would be closer to the Simbiont concept but without the cross-application possibilities that Simbiont/Darktree posessed. I've heard many good things about darktree but it is a bit rich for my budget whereas shaderlab is free now.
Javascript comes from Sun Micro Systems and was tied to Netscape and Mozilla later on, and JScript is a Microsoft implementation. Both are pretty close in functionality. Both are subsets of the Java language. |
Post by Alien // Mar 9, 2007, 7:02am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Just out of curiosity, is there any sort of tie between the javascript in web pages and the jscript we use for our LE bricks? I think jscript is Microsoft's version of javascript (subset or superset thereof).
Reason I ask is that I do a great deal of my scripting in jscript for which I am most comfortable.
I seem to remember someone saying tS definitely uses the MS version.
The basic I knew from the early 80's required line numbers on every line.
Ah, the good old days. :) BBC BASIC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro) [I had a Model B] used line numbers as well.
I've heard many good things about darktree but it is a bit rich for my budget whereas shaderlab is free now.
I tried ShaderLab, but couldn't seem to get it to save new presets. |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Mar 9, 2007, 8:43am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
Total Posts: 858
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I'm curious if the Simbionts I make can be used by others...or if it requires Darktree..?
I've just given them a go and the answer is most definitely yes!
I love the Fresnel shader (has a glorious enamel look) so feel free to share any others! :) |
Post by Alien // Mar 9, 2007, 9:41am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Sorry, I missed this bit.
Also, IE7 has some pishing check ( why do I have a feeling you don't like that either :D )
Gee, I dunno, maybe you have some kind of secret insight... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/smilies/crystal-ball.gif
:)
Seriously though, no I don't use IE7, haven't even got it installed on my system. When not using Firefox I use Maxthon (http://www.maxthon.com/) which uses IE6's core.
The mailwasher way of showing the real link is pretty clever ! Wonder why Microsoft doesn't think about these obvious solutions to all their "software" aka "security risks" !?
I seem to remember reading about various plugins for both IE & Firefox that identify/recognise bogus links, but I've not had any need for them. Partly because of MailWasher, & partly because even before using DNSKong (http://www.pyrenean.com/?page_value=-1) I used a Hosts file (http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm) full of thousands of bogus addies, which basically would tell Windows that those addies were all hosted on my system, which would mean a page not found error instead of going to a bogus site.
DNSKong works in a similar manner, except you don't have to put the whole address in, just 1 chunk/word. For example, if I wanted to block any Caligari sites [not that I would], all I'd have to do would be to add a line to the Named.txt file in DNSKong's folder with caligari on it, which would block anything that had caligari as a whole chunk of its address. you can't do a partial word, it has to be 1 or more chunks [the parts between the "."s, so to block Caligari's site you could use www, caligari, or com, but the 1st & last option would block WAY more sites than you'd intended. This comes in handy, as a lot of those bogus sites, adservers, etc will have numerous sub-domains, & to block them all with the Hosts file would require an entry for each sub-domain, whereas with DNSKong you just block the main domain.
BTW, the lists that come with DNSKong are woefully out of date, mine are just a bit out of date [need to get round to updating the block list, but it has to be generated manually, which is really tedious], let me know if you're interested & I'll upload the most recent copy of my lists. |
Post by Shike // Mar 9, 2007, 11:00am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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No, I mean when I click on the sphere in the material editor to bring up the shaders to choose one; the box where I would select Simbiont (or brick or shaderlab or plain color etc)
Ouch, for me it's no delay at all... :confused:
If the shader browser had been like the windows browser I'd understand it, as when I access "My Computer" it takes up to 30sec for it to determine: Hm, still only 2 drives... :rolleyes:
Or the "Add Remove Programs" that takes several minutes to fill the list... talk about crappy programming !!! :mad:
I've just given them a go and the answer is most definitely yes!
I love the Fresnel shader (has a glorious enamel look) so feel free to share any others!
Great to hear that it works, and thanks :D
When I create Darktrees in the future I'll keep this in mind and make tweaks so that others can use it :)
and put them in...eh, the Garage?? Wasn't there a specific thread for sharing...or was that the old forum? :confused:
(As you saw in the ground shader... no tweaks, when I worked on the TriBeast I made the changes through Darktree. )
Gee, I dunno, maybe you have some kind of secret insight...
LOL :D
Before the N-word, I vaguely recall spending a lot of time creating lists and filters for my email... it wasn't fun at all.
And believe me, I'm NOT a fan of microsoft or norton, but I'm uncertain of how safe free scanners and firewalls are... would like to see som independant test of both free/pay ware.
( I do use Notepad++ and FilZip, so I'm not a complete corporate sellout ;) ) |
Post by Alien // Mar 9, 2007, 12:28pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Before the N-word, I vaguely recall spending a lot of time creating lists and filters for my email... it wasn't fun at all.
Well, I haven't had to update my email filters in ages. Partly because they're fairly brutal, & partly because 1 of them deletes anything from anyone not on my friends list with a certain text string in the subject field that my ISP's mail server adds to any mail that it thinks is suspect. Before they started doing that, I actually used to think it was fun creating/adjusting filters, a battle of wits against the spammers. :)
And believe me, I'm NOT a fan of microsoft or norton, but I'm uncertain of how safe free scanners and firewalls are... would like to see som independant test of both free/pay ware.
If by scanners you mean anti-virus, I don't use a freebie - Kaspersky is £24/year. As for firewall, I currently use XP's built in 1, it's good enough to stop incoming stuff, & Kaspersky takes care of the outgoing. I do have my eye on a free firewall that looks pretty good except for user-friendliness, so when that improves a bit I might give it another go.
That DNSKong prog doesn't fit into either category, it just acts as a DNS proxy - all DNS queries have to go through it, & if a domain is matched by something in the blocklist then instead of looking up the IP addy, it just returns a result of 127.0.0.1.
( I do use Notepad++ and FilZip, so I'm not a complete corporate sellout ;) )
7-Zip's another compression freebie. As for text editors, I use both EditPad Lite (http://www.editpadpro.com/cgi-bin/version.pl?app=epl&ver=205&lang=en&dp=w) & PSPad (http://www.pspad.com/en/). Of course, there's always OpenOffice (http://www.openoffice.org/en/) as well. :) |
Post by Shike // Mar 10, 2007, 9:09am
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Shike
Total Posts: 511
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And don't forget Gimp, pretty good for a free software !
Might give OpenOffice a go... I need something like that and DON'T want to infect my computer with MsOffice :D |
Post by Alien // Mar 10, 2007, 1:08pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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And don't forget Gimp, pretty good for a free software !
That's what I keep hearing, but I'm not keen on the UI. I think I'll stick with PSP [Paint Shop Pro]. :) |
Post by weaveribm // Mar 12, 2007, 1:35am
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Ah, the good old days. :) BBC BASIC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro) [I had a Model B] used line numbers as well
Yes same (Electron for the wimps) with the 16bit? addon graphics hardware and then the fabulous Archimedes later. Halcyon days :)
3D graphics on the Atari 520? with the RAM pack. Still got the manuals. You can't get manuals these days plus policemen look like twelve year olds. Thank you for not mentioning the outside world (The Simpsons retirement home notice) :)
What was the question again
Peter |
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