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Help with PC please
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Help with PC please // Archive: Tech Forum
Post by splinters // Mar 25, 2007, 10:39am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I am posting this here as I need a little advice from people with a variety of PC backgrounds...I am completely stuck.
I won an XFX Geforce 7900GT for the most interesting project runner up prize and thought I would treat myself to a new PC. Found a cheap Acer Aspire with 1gb DDR2, Dual Core AMD 3800, 160GB ram, DVD-R etc. A real nice machine with built in Nvidia 6100 graphics. It ran nice and fast especially when I added another 1gb of Ram. I knew the PSU (275W) would not be enough for the GPU so I put ina thermaltake 420W with 25V on the 12v rails.
Card arrived, put it in...ran like a beauty. Not sure what happened next, put a Beling 8 way surge protector in and added a second monitor...some time around here the PC began failing to boot. You could turn it off and on a few times a coax it to start. Bear in mind that through all this, once it was running it was fine; would run for hours with no problems, ran everything I threw at it and would reboot happily...but the problems were booting from cold.
Dumped second monitor, checked all internal connections and it ran fine for a few weeks.
So...I bought another monitor, same Sony as I already have, and...after a few days, PC playing silly buggers again.
Sick of this, I stripped down the PC and rebuilt it turning it on after every step; CPU, RAM, HD, DVD etc....all was fine:)
Until I plugged the GPU in...won't boot...remove card and run off inbuilt...boots fine.
So, first thought is a second monitor, but I ran it for the last few days like that. Maybe broken card but it too worked since I got it, albeit intermittently.
Final thought is PSU...brand new and no problems otherwise. XFX mailed me and recommended a minimum 450W with 25 a on 12v rail but said a lower supply might be OK as long as it had 25A on the 12V.
I don't want to blow another £50 on a PSU when it might be the GPU, or dump this card in favour of a slower on (say, 7600).
It might just be that the card cannot be used with my machine but I have had it running more than I have not.
So guys, end of long story....any ideas what I can do here?
Thanks for listening...this is driving me mad and at the moment I can neither beta test, produce icons or any personal work...:) |
Post by splinters // Mar 25, 2007, 10:51am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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One more point, the card is from US while PC is UK. The card has a 4pin Molex while my PSU has a 6 pin PCI-E connector but I have used an adaptor that comes with the card and the standard molex. |
Post by Saul // Mar 25, 2007, 11:08am
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Saul
Total Posts: 32
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....any ideas what I can do here?
Buy a DELL and stop trying to DIY perhaps? |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Mar 25, 2007, 11:18am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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I've had issues like this before. Mine did turn out to be the power supply. I had just upgraded at the time to a Nvidia GeForce 6200 running 2 monitors.
If it's power supply and you can get by without a few peripherals, this might be worth a try.
Unplug your optional USB equipment if they're powered off your machine. The graphics card no doubt consumes a lot of power. Sometimes the initial power-on surge can be especially taxing. Unplugging the USB may get you past the initial boot sequence. Then try plugging the USB back in one at a time.
Upgraded myself to a 500W power supply (ATX board) and I ceased to have issues.
2 monitors does draw some extra power from your card. Shouldn't be too significant compared to GPU itself, but every little bit sums to a total load. |
Post by splinters // Mar 25, 2007, 11:56am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Buy a DELL and stop trying to DIY perhaps?
Alternatively, I could wake my 8 year old daughter up and ask for her help...:rolleyes:
Is this some sort of vendetta Saul? You know what I mean.
ProfessorKhaos..thanks for answering sensibly. |
Post by Steinie // Mar 25, 2007, 12:08pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Most of the energy draw on boot up are kick starting the hd's. After that your amp draw drops. It could be just enough to create problems. |
Post by Saul // Mar 25, 2007, 12:14pm
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Saul
Total Posts: 32
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...... I could wake my 8 year old daughter up and ask for her help...
That's the way to go, get in the experts! |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 25, 2007, 1:22pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Yeah agree that it's the PSU. 430W isn't enough to run that Vid card.
I had a 435W PSU on my dad's machine and I had to go up to a 450 watt to get his new XFX 7900GS card to work. He's running a single core 2.0 GHz AMD and that was barely enough. I'd recommend a 500W PSU minimum if you've got extra harddrives.
If you're planning to overclock, I'd recommend 600-700 watts. I put in a 750W in my new machine.
-Jack. |
Post by Improv // Mar 25, 2007, 2:16pm
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Improv
Total Posts: 0
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Yeah agree that it's the PSU. 430W isn't enough to run that Vid card.
I had a 435W PSU on my dad's machine and I had to go up to a 450 watt to get his new XFX 7900GS card to work. He's running a single core 2.0 GHz AMD and that was barely enough. I'd recommend a 500W PSU minimum if you've got extra harddrives.
If you're planning to overclock, I'd recommend 600-700 watts. I put in a 750W in my new machine.
-Jack.
For the 8800GTX 768MB card, Tiger Direct recommends:
"450W PCI Express-compliant system power supply with a combined 12V current rating of 30A or more."
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2570708&Sku=P450-8002&SRCCODE=PRICEGRABBER&CMP=OTC-PRICEGRABBER
Note the "OR MORE". So it sounds like you might well be right. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 25, 2007, 7:21pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Another point that I should mention is that most PSUs can put out more power than they are rated for, but only for a short time. After that the capacitors start failing and can't produce enough power for the higher load usually during boot up. Which sounds like what happened in your case Splinters.
-Jack. |
Post by splinters // Mar 25, 2007, 9:09pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Cheers guys, I have a local Maplins store selling an Antec 500W smartpower 2.0.
it has 17A on 12v1 and 19A on 12v2 which is 11A more than I have now.
it is the last one on sale for £50...do you think that will do the trick?
I don't overclock, hardly play games and have on SATA HD and a DVD burner. Apart from about 6 USB devices (only 3 require power from the system) and dual monitors there is nothing else in there.
Don't really want to pay much more than that for what was basically a 'budget' machine to house a free card...:o |
Post by weaveribm // Mar 26, 2007, 12:23am
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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The Prof has some good advice there Splinters
You're wondering what happens if you get a chunkier p/s and you still have this problem I bet. 50 quid down the power drain
So if you don't have the new power supply yet you can eliminate a few things perhaps in testing
To test the power supply's current draw (and whether it has anything to do with the problem) unplug some kit as per Prof's advice
BIOS has an option for a PEG link perhaps, disable that it's a known problem/feature on some combinations of mobo and graphics cards
Just wondering if your current power supply is one of the 'updated for ATX' types with one or two 6-pin plugs. Newish graphics cards (and power supplies) have that 6-pin (black usually) socket rather than a 4-pin Molex socket (automobile type, white nylon)
Be very careful when connecting power to the motherboard and the graphics card if there's a Molex socket on the motherboard, some manufs add one 'for more power to the graphics system' but not all Molex connections are safe especially when daisy-chaining hard drives
There is a current surge at bootup but PC power supplies normally are switch-mode and use a soft-start to avoid voltage spikes getting into the power rails. Hot kit draws more current than cold kit, it's harder to draw current when devices are running hot so voltages rise
Only substitution tests will sort it out and that means either borrowing a higher-capacity p/s or buying one with possibly that lurking worry that when the new one's plugged in nothing will change... so borrowing sounds good :)
Until I plugged the GPU in...won't boot...remove card and run off inbuilt...boots fine
Check that if the card has the black 6-pin socket you're actually connected to it
Maplins and Antec are normally reliable traders
smartpower 2.0
That's the new-spec ATA power supply with the 6-pin plugs for the rear of your PCI-E graphics card, sounds ok
Peter |
Post by splinters // Mar 26, 2007, 3:55am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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This is something that concerns me before I buy another PSU. My current PSU has a 6 pin PCI-E connector as well as a load of 4 pin molex.
The card was shipped to me from the US and has a standard 4 pin Molex on it rather that the 6 pin PCI-E that I would expect but it did come with an adaptor to connect to the 6 pin PCI-E power connector.
Does this help at all?
Really need to clarify this as I am going to Maplins in two hours...:( |
Post by RichLevy // Mar 26, 2007, 5:09am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=537847&pid=588410446&st=0&#entry588410446
Read the last post in this thread, it seems to be a common practice. Heed the advice he gives about not using that adapter on anything but a video card.
Rich |
Post by splinters // Mar 26, 2007, 8:06am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Dear, oh dear...new PSU seemed fine, I even ran the Geforce 7900 card so I put it all back together. Didn't boot...:(
Took the second monitor and all USB stuff out...it booted.
So, intermittent problem or just no way to easily run a second monitor. I just give up here guys. Still at least the guy in Maplins reduced the PSU to £39 as it was the last one.
Dear, oh dear.....:o |
Post by splinters // Mar 26, 2007, 8:44am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Stranger and stranger...I got to thinking that maybe this was due to the onboard graphics..maybe it is seeing 3 outputs or something. So I enabled dual monitor support in BIOS (unrelated to the Nvidia card's outputs) and lo and behold I have dual monitors, albeit one running from the VGA out on the tower. Now, not sure what the downside is so far, the onboard has allocated itself 256 mb of RAM from my 2gb so I guess I effectively have 2 cards with 256 mb running.
I must investigate further but I am pretty convinced of a Nvidia hardware incompatbility in dual monitor mode here...:o
Cheers for help and advice guys...if nothing else the Antec PSU is a lot tidier and has a 3 year warranty so I am OK with buying that. |
Post by Ambrose // Mar 26, 2007, 9:03am
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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Hi Splinters
Don't get carried away and do to much now ;)
Usually there'se problems with memory and the graphics not getting along but this reminds me of a problem a guy at work had recently.
He even bought a new power supply with the same outcome.
He menthioned it to a real it geek that told him to try setting the power in bios something to another hmm hmm voltage or something.
I'll ask him tomorow when I'm at work but this sounds like you're having the same kind of deal here?
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by Jack Edwards // Mar 26, 2007, 9:05am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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This is gonna sound like one of those "Is it plugged in?" type questions but did you try disabling the onboard vid card in the bios?
There's always the new MB ($60 US) + C2D 4300 ($180 US) and you'd have a nice new computer... :D
-Jack. |
Post by splinters // Mar 26, 2007, 11:05am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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There is no option for disabling the onboard, only the option to set memory used and option for dual monitor (to use the onboard along with a card). Instructions say that card will be automatically disabled if a PCI-E card is inserted...but I have my doubts.
This seems very much like a BIOS limitation i.e. it could do with an upgrade from Acer.
But, I agree that somewhere around here is the issue. I am waiting on a reply from xFX about this but getting in touch with Acer is a nightmare.
For now I am running dual monitor on two different chipsets.
Funny to see trueSpace chug on one monitor (6100 powered), then switch it to the other monitor and watch it fly....funny as in strange not so much ha ha...:rolleyes:
Cheers again guys. |
Post by Saul // Mar 26, 2007, 11:27am
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Saul
Total Posts: 32
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Took....... all USB stuff out...it booted.
Which reminds me that i got a Seagate USB HD that hangs my desktop at bootup if it is on when the machine is turned on, Seagate have confirmed the problem is with their backup software called Bounceback Express. |
Post by splinters // Mar 26, 2007, 12:30pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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This is a 'known' issue with the machine when it is bought new (factory settings). First boot device is set as removable so if you have a external drive in it tries to boot from it, fails then hangs but I change this the first time I ran it.
I plugged all the USB stuff in and so far (:rolleyes: ) it boots everytime. Just when I use both DVI outputs on the card I get problems,
So, I guess this is a MOBO chipset limitation, probably the inbuilt graphics clashing, or card issue but I have dual monitors again (in a frankenstein kind of way).
Thanks for the tip though..any and all help appreciated here...:o |
Post by Ambrose // Mar 26, 2007, 9:51pm
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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As you just describes it I would say it could be ;) memory.
I bought a new system like 5 years ago, Ts5 or 6, and wanted much Ram so I sneaked and bought Kingston that weren't tested, later on I know these were no good with the onboard graphics and it had allways refused to run so got an AGP card instead, next time I will buy good memory and a total solution.
Anyway he told me he changed a setting in bios for the power that the graphic card used, so when it were raised the issues dissapeared since it got a more stable power feed or something...
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by splinters // Mar 26, 2007, 11:42pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Cheers for that, it is running fine using both onboard and 7900GT graphics. Pretty sure then that it must be a chipset issue using dual DVI. I will give it a few day to see if it is stable like this. Maybe Vista, when it arrives this week, will help matters...
Thanks for all advice guys. Hopefully it will be of help to others too. |
Post by splinters // Mar 27, 2007, 10:47am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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No, no, no, NO...it is not running fine.
The only way I can get this PC to boot every time is to remove the Geforce 7900GT card.
Oh, the irony...I won this card from Caligari so decided to buy a new PC to put it in. The only thing stopping me from running it is...you guessed it; THE CARD.
So, a lesson learnt then...never count your chickens etc.
And stuck with a PC I would never had bought if I thought I could not put this card or similar into.
Add to this the two PSU's I bought and the second 19" Sony TFT that are all now redundant....
Cheers for all help guys. I am off for a stiff drink to drown my sorrows.
:( :( :( |
Post by TomG // Mar 27, 2007, 11:32am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Contact the motherboard manufacturer. I have never heard of not being able to disable onboard graphics btw, they are always able to be turned off that I've seen. That would be my first question to them :)
Next, is your card running under its own power, or just out of the PCI-E slot? Best to run it with its own connection to the PSU if possible (some cards this is optional, some cards this is vital).
I remember you installed some extra item to handle dual monitors, I would uninstall that for now and go back to letting WIndows and the driver handle it. NVIDIA's own Desktop Management lets you control things on how to handle the dual monitor, ie spread over two monitors, two separate screens, etc. Might not be as flexible as that utility you were using, but if you cant disable onboard graphics, that utility may be confusing the issue.
Plug both monitors in, but dont use one, set the card to only use one monitor. Does it boot now?
And so on and so forth... machine building is pretty tough at times!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by splinters // Mar 27, 2007, 11:46am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Cheers Tom, I tried all those already. I just cleared CMOS, reset defaul BIOS and plugged a monitor in...it booted. Plugged a second one in...it rebooted.
BUT, this has always been the case. Problems are booting from cold as it were. Never a problem when running or simply rebooting.
I daren't turn the PC off now...:o |
Post by trueBlue // Mar 27, 2007, 1:14pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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When I installed my NVIDIA PCI card a while back in XP, I disabled the Onboard Intel graphics from the Device Manager. Has been that way ever since. There is most likely a switch I would think on the MB. |
Post by splinters // Mar 27, 2007, 1:33pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I did find an option for something similar; it lets you set the aperture for the graphics, it was on Auto (as well as settings from 64mb up to 256mb) I also saw a disable option but I am pretty sure I disabled it before and this still happened. Either way I reset all defaults and disabled this again.
As we speak, I am back on the card (after clearing CMOS) on dual monitors with xFx looking into the issue. I can forget help from Acer; not only are they crap, but I already 'voided' my warranty changing the PSU. Still, an Antec is far better than the Liteon piece of rubbish that was factory fitted.
Strange world eh?
Nothing listed in my device manager but the Geforce 7900GT/GTO. |
Post by splinters // Mar 27, 2007, 1:39pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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One last option here; the parts in the PC are all decent (LG, AMD, Seagate etc.) but the Mobo is a proprietary Acer (made by ECS) and as such has lots of options removed-not exactly a tweaker's dream. Nor is it likely to get BIOS updates.
But if I buy a new mobo I do not think windows will work as it is and if I use the recovery disc (no XP disc supplied) I doubt it will recognise my PC as an Acer and will not install...ergo no PC at all...:)
My Vista home Premium upgrade is due this week, if I am able to do a fresh install of Vista without needing the Xp for verification then I would do that.
Does a Vista upgrade disc let you install into any spec machine or does it need to 'see' an existing verified XP OS? |
Post by stoker // Mar 27, 2007, 1:55pm
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stoker
Total Posts: 506
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One last option here; the parts in the PC are all decent (LG, AMD, Seagate etc.) but the Mobo is a proprietary Acer (made by ECS) and as such has lots of options removed-not exactly a tweaker's dream. Nor is it likely to get BIOS updates.
But if I buy a new mobo I do not think windows will work as it is and if I use the recovery disc (no XP disc supplied) I doubt it will recognise my PC as an Acer and will not install...ergo no PC at all...:)
My Vista home Premium upgrade is due this week, if I am able to do a fresh install of Vista without needing the Xp for verification then I would do that.
Does a Vista upgrade disc let you install into any spec machine or does it need to 'see' an existing verified XP OS?
Apparently for Dell's upgrade you can install on another machine - although on the CD for Dell it says "FOR USE ONLY AS AN UPGRADE ON QUALIFYING DELL P.C'S"
So theoretically it could work but would be illegal |
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