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Joints and limbs disappearing
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Joints and limbs disappearing // Archive: Tech Forum
Post by jayr // Dec 8, 2007, 7:16am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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I'm using the crazy bob skeleton from the 'limbs' library to add to a character but as i try to move the joints to the right places they disappear and some times the skeleton distorts. This is before i use the 'add skin to skeleton' tool, this is just the bones on there own. i was using the 'shape skeleton tool.
What am i doing wrong? Has anyone else had this problem? |
Post by jamesmc // Dec 9, 2007, 5:21am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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If the skin is stretching, it got attached somehow.
Just reload the model would be what I would do. |
Post by jayr // Dec 9, 2007, 7:31am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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the skin isn't attactched at all, it's just the skelleton messing up. |
Post by jamesmc // Dec 9, 2007, 8:39am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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The only thing I can think of is to make sure you use the object selection tool with the shape skeleton tool.
If you use the dynamic movement tool or whatever it is called with the shape skeleton tool, it will cause it to jump because it thinks you want to make the skeleton move around some point. |
Post by jayr // Dec 9, 2007, 12:59pm
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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nope, not using dynapose, i think i'll try adding the mesh to the skelleton and see if that solves it |
Post by jayr // Dec 11, 2007, 4:07am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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This is what happens when the skin is attatched and i use the 'shape skeleton' tool. Anyone know why? has anyone had this problem?:
http://www.lothissen.co.uk/bones001.jpg |
Post by jayr // Dec 12, 2007, 1:28pm
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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this is getting really annoying and making it difficult to work with truespace's bones. This time it's a rig made from the 'limbs' library and the same thing happens when i use the shape skeleton tool:
http://www.lothissen.co.uk/bones002.jpg
the limb disappears! Is there a reason for this? has anyone else had this problem? Can someone from caligari please comment. |
Post by TomG // Dec 13, 2007, 2:53am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I would contact Technical Support with this one, can't give any quick and easy answer here on the forums, and that's always the best way to get help when problems are more severe.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jayr // Dec 13, 2007, 3:16am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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Thanks Tom, wasn't sure if tech support were the right people to go to with this, i'll contact them though |
Post by Norm // Dec 14, 2007, 10:13am
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Norm
Total Posts: 862
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To be honest jayr, I have spent about last 30 minutes playing with Crazy Bob and also the spine object from the Limbs library. I get no problems as you mention so I am going to assume you are working tools incorrectly.
I see locks on joints in your one image along the arm (left) and assume that there are locks on right-arm as well (right-arm causing problems in image). If you simply drag a skeleton into some skin it was not intended for, then manipulate without understanding the creation and limitation(locks) process, then yes problems will occur.
I always revert back to the same scenario where I suggest starting with one joint and one bone. Learn how to create and control this simple scenario and you apply what you learn to next step, which is add another bone, then another joint and so forth until you create your own skeleton from "scratch".
If you are fighting locks and limitations, then trueSpace is not understanding what you wish to do given its command set. I suspect that this may be the scenario as you describe it.
Worst thing to do is get frustrated over a complex scenario. If you feel this happening, take a step back, create a very simple example of the scenario and try it from a different angle.
You have examples of characters that are functioning perfect and they too were created from scratch in trueSpace using the new system. This says it is within trueSpace's capabilities to do this.
When you do bring questions about a problem scenario, be specific and well defined in how you present the question(s). To say you are using Shape Skeleton to move bones and joints, I wonder exactly what you are doing. It is to vague to understand what process you are trying to use. Any answers as you may have guessed from answers here, are guess-work and many users just don't have understanding of what you actually doing. You could include a scene file of the scenario and upload it here to forums. This way perhaps some users would download it and have a look to see if they can help.
Last point I wish to make is any one who is really talented with trueSpace and its toolset has been exactly where you are now in feeling a degree of frustration with how a scenario is progressing. The key for them and hopefully some will back me up on this, is that they learned to try a different way or dug deep and learned/understood the whole process, before they were able to effectively use the tool(s). So do not feel like you are alone or such. Just remember that you have to help us to help you. That is also a tool, all in itself :) |
Post by Steinie // Dec 14, 2007, 10:44am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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JayR, may I suggest sending an email to someone on the forums you trust and who knows the ins and outs of the bone system. Ask them if you can send them your model and see if they have problems with it.
Another solution is to bring the problem to the Animation Meetings on Saturday. (not this Sat. but the one after I think). Someone there can help you I'm sure and you then could send them your example. Bone demonstrations cannot be done live yet. I bet 3DFrog would be a big help.
Keeping it simple to learn the new bone system was the best advice I heard so far. |
Post by jayr // Dec 14, 2007, 10:53am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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Thanks norm, i have made rigs from scratch and had no problens with them, thats why this had me so confused.
When i say 'using the shape skeleton tool' i mean that i was slecting that tool then selecting a joint and trying to move it to the point i wanted it in the skin (please note, this is before the skin is even joined to the rig), it would move a bit then disappear. In the last image i posted i was trying to move the elbow joint and that caused the whole arm to vanish. i was doing the same thing on the one before that with a different rig (the crazy bob one).
Taking your advice and lookin at every step i've made, i came across something. Before i started to move the joints i scaled the rig to fit the size of the model, if i don't re-size it the problem doesn't occur, not even if i move the joints into some very odd positions.
How would the scaling affect it in this way though? |
Post by jayr // Dec 14, 2007, 10:55am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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Thanks steinie but if you look at my last post you'll see this may be a case of me missing the woods for the trees.
Not scaling it up first seems to have solved it, i just don't know why. |
Post by deathbymeteor // Jan 15, 2008, 8:48am
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deathbymeteor
Total Posts: 5
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You're not alone, and it isn't a matter of doing dumb things. I've gone through the available tutorials (workspace side) and experimented many times to learn the model side, but Bones in TS constantly give me problems, model side or workspace side, no matter how slowly and carefully I take it. (the bones tutorial I recently purchased was a *real* disappointment, as it was for some plug-in version that's long gone...grrr) Sometimes joints pop into new positions for no good reason, sometimes the whole skeleton decides to reposition itself, and most recently (in model side with bridge turned off) it corrupted TS's save functions. I didn't realize this for a while because I was using the Replace function in the scene library, but when I tried an Insert I noticed it refused to save a new scene. I tried a File > Save and it saved a scene object so I thought it worked, but later when I loaded that scene it was empty (no objects). Worse yet, the scene I had been Replacing over also was empty. No amount of care can overcome the bones problems on my system! Works on Norm's system, and that's partly why it's hard to convince people you're not doing stupid things. I've all but given up trying to use bones in TS (from 5.2 to 7.51). If careful saving of my scene can't protect me from problems, what can? If the system is so tricky it requires "digging deep" to make it work, then something's wrong. Sorry to have to vent, but I was counting on using bones in TS for a project and am frustrated and all but resigned to having to switch to a different product. I'll give it another go, but I can't keep losing files like that. And how can I possibly report the problem when the scene is gone and I have no idea what sequence of events caused the problem this last go 'round? I've noticed that bad things almost always happen if I try to use UNDO while working on a skeleton. Caveat emptor. |
Post by trueBlue // Jan 15, 2008, 8:55am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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I would try building a Skeleton Rig in Workspace only. No need to switch to the Model side at all. I assume you know that Bones in the Workspace are totally different then Model's Bones. |
Post by tomasb // Jan 15, 2008, 9:26am
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tomasb
Total Posts: 261
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here is a list of 7.51 bones issues that are known and will be solved in next update:
- bone stretching. mostly happends when you use conflicting setting of IK handles and locks which causes IK solver failure to converge
- sliding fully locked feets: this happens if there exists a handle that has feet unlocked and is in unreachable pose (this can happen unintentionally when using global locks in dynapose and turning them off - animation will use current locks settings)
- skinning problem with limb libraries: in some cases root bone of a limb uses the same skinning ID for all limbs and this causes that only one bone is used for skinning of all limb parts. workaround here is to add/delete joint o problematic bone which causes ID to regenerate
- bones do not always point into lock direction - this happens if lock is too far from it's anchor position
- bones "explosion" if there are more locks that are too far (unreachable), IK solver may fail
- locks "floating" caused by small bone stretching
- problems with non-proportional scaling
there are also some more smaller known issues but these are probably causing frustration the most
hth |
Post by TomG // Jan 15, 2008, 10:29am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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The plugin version would most likely be motion studio, which rather than being long gone is in fact now free:
http://www.primitiveitch.com/pub/
If you are going to use bones on the Model side, then I would use this plugin.
Bones on model and workspace are ENTIRELY different. That can't be stressed enough. It is not a good idea to do anything to a model workspace side once bones are added Model side, as the bones do NOT move across the bridge and this can cause many odd effects.
Also in a similar way, dont do anything to a mesh in teh Model side once workspace bones are added, this too can cause issues.
If saving to a library, be sure to be saving to a Model library only! Do not save to a workspace library with Model side bones, the results will be unpredictable. The old tS6.6 libraries are still in there on the Model side and you can use those.
Note that if you had the bridge off and were working in Model side and saved into a tS7.5 library, the scene would indeed be empty (with Bridge Off, things you create in Model side are NOT moved to the workspace, which is where the file gets saved from into the tS7.5 libraries).
The bones on the model side are full of oddities and frustrations. I strongly recommend using workspace bones only. This will give you a much more powerful system, much more flexibility, ease of use, saving to standard tS7.5 libraries, limb library, etc.
Apologies for your frustrations, trueSpace is a complex piece of software and can take some learning. I suggest focusing on using workspace only with its new bones - the old bones I would say are to be avoided as much as possible. There is a world - no universe - of difference between the two, the new bones are very very much better :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by 3dfrog // Jan 15, 2008, 11:20am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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Hey Jayr
I seem to recall some problems after scaling bones then keyframing them would cause some kind of problem. Maybe what you have going on is similar. I don't remember it exactly. I know you are only using shape skeleton and not keyframing, but maybe related. Maybe don't scale the skelton before shaping, but scale the figure, then use shape skeleton to position bones. Then after you have him all rigged and skinned scale actor to the size you want. I can't guarantee you won't have problems though, just an idea to work around it. Hopefully these won't be issues after 7.6. 7.51 bones do have some serious issues, but I have faith for the next release. |
Post by jayr // Jan 15, 2008, 1:16pm
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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It was deffinatly the scalling that was causing the problem. i scalled the model down and the shaped the skelleton to fit and it was ok, like i said before. Still had a few problems but they were more a case of me not being tool familiar with rigging a character, stuff like vetexes assigned in the wrong place and needing to use the weight paint tool or the model not lending itself to sertain movements very well.
I've decided to put that project on hold for now, the animation side at least, till i get a lot more familiar with TS's animation tools. I also want to re-make some of the models.
Thanks for the tips and advice so far though |
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