|
|
How to weightpaint vertices inside the mesh?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
How to weightpaint vertices inside the mesh? // Archive: Tech Forum
Post by W!ZARD // May 29, 2008, 10:02pm
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Before i forget, thanks Wizard for your detailled description. Is of help. It may have to do that i shape my skeleton from scratch that you don't stumble across the bug. I never used BVH before.
:)
Pleased to help Tiles. After I posted I did wonder if you default pose issues might be related to using IK locks and handles which I've not had much experience with. I was thinking it might be connected with the combination of an IK lock and the reset pose tool. I'm just guessing here of course but this may help you to isolate your bug.:D |
Post by tomasb // May 29, 2008, 10:23pm
|
tomasb
Total Posts: 261
|
Before i forget, thanks Wizard for your detailled description. Is of help. It may have to do that i shape my skeleton from scratch that you don't stumble across the bug. I never used BVH before.
Tomas, this scene still shows the reset default pose problem. I have shaped the skeleton, skinned it, hit the set default pose button, and started with joints setup then.
Select the character, hit reset pose, and you will see that the left hand goes more back than the right hand. That is not the pose i have stored.
And no matter how i go on here, i will never have a working default pose from now on. This is case two.
As a sideeffect, loading my old scene produced a crash report :)
if you set default pose before setting joint limits, then joint orientations set during reset pose can be clamped if default pose was outside limits. |
Post by Tiles // May 29, 2008, 11:29pm
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
if you set default pose before setting joint limits, then joint orientations set during reset pose can be clamped if default pose was outside limits.
Thanks Tomas. I think we have catched it now. This explains what stops me. I always set my default pose immediately after i attach the skin. And then i go on with further setup like adjusting joint limits. So no wonder. This also explains what's going on in this attached video here. Trapped by a bug and the default pose behaviour :)
defaultpose.wmv, 8 Mb (http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/defaultpose.wmv)
What's your suggestion for such a case i have here? When i find out that i forgot to set a joint limit? Or for the case when i find out while i do my animation that i need to finetune the joints limit? I hope the answer fot it is not start from scratch :D
Anyways, riddle solved. Which stops my XSI experiments. Let's have a look if i know enough workarounds now to finish my rig in TS. On from scratch and without touching the default pose button anymore until i am finished. A tough one ... :D |
Post by tomasb // May 30, 2008, 1:16am
|
tomasb
Total Posts: 261
|
Thanks Tomas. I think we have catched it now. This explains what stops me. I always set my default pose immediately after i attach the skin. And then i go on with further setup like adjusting joint limits. So no wonder. This also explains what's going on in this attached video here. Trapped by a bug and the default pose behaviour :)
defaultpose.wmv, 8 Mb (http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/defaultpose.wmv)
What's your suggestion for such a case i have here? When i find out that i forgot to set a joint limit? Or for the case when i find out while i do my animation that i need to finetune the joints limit? I hope the answer fot it is not start from scratch :D
Anyways, riddle solved. Which stops my XSI experiments. Let's have a look if i know enough workarounds now to finish my rig in TS. On from scratch and without touching the default pose button anymore until i am finished. A tough one ... :D
you can set default pose again if you are finished. |
Post by Tiles // May 30, 2008, 1:56am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Not really, because then you usually don't have a working pose anymore that you can save as default. As shown, playing around with the joints when having a default pose set destroys the pose. Hmm. |
Post by W!ZARD // May 30, 2008, 2:59am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
You can have a main default pose - the standard "T" shaped 'vitruvian man' posture. For other interim poses you cn get creative with the animation editor and keyframe a pose on it's own animation track which you can then turn on or off as desired. You do need to keep your wits about you as it's easy to overwrite a pose set like this but there is no reason (that I know of) why you can't have several pseudo default poses set on their own animation track and frame which you enable or disable as required. (actually it would be a nice feature if track enabling was operated by a checkbox or similar rather than having to open a menu but that's a whole other conversation).
I think you could have a range of poses keyframed at different frames all on one 'reference' track which you could copy and paste keyframes from as required. I don't know if this qualifies as a 'workaround' or a usage technique but hey, if it works then why not use it?:D
HTH |
Post by Tiles // May 30, 2008, 3:13am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Thanks for the suggestion, but you still don't understand the problem it seems. The T pose gets destroyed when i touch a joint at a skeleton with a default pose. Means that i am in mayor trouble when i want to finetune a joint after hitting the set default pose button. Because then i don't have a T pose anymore to record. This means to redo the rig.
I also better don't keyframe a not ready shaped skeleton ;) |
Post by W!ZARD // May 30, 2008, 3:21am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Hmmn - OK - I've never had this problem Tiles - give me some time and I'll check things out from here and see if I can come up with something more helpful. |
Post by Tiles // May 30, 2008, 3:23am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Thanks Wizard :)
Heh, you will of course rarely stumble across this problem with a BVH file. There you usually don't need to finetune the skeleton ;) |
Post by frootee // May 30, 2008, 4:09am
|
frootee
Total Posts: 2667
|
Though this may not help with troubleshooting the problem, W!zard's post here gave me an idea. Not sure if this is already implemented but we should be able to store poses in a Pose Library. We can create our own libraries in the library browser.
You can have a main default pose - the standard "T" shaped 'vitruvian man' posture. For other interim poses you cn get creative with the animation editor and keyframe a pose on it's own animation track which you can then turn on or off as desired. You do need to keep your wits about you as it's easy to overwrite a pose set like this but there is no reason (that I know of) why you can't have several pseudo default poses set on their own animation track and frame which you enable or disable as required. (actually it would be a nice feature if track enabling was operated by a checkbox or similar rather than having to open a menu but that's a whole other conversation).
I think you could have a range of poses keyframed at different frames all on one 'reference' track which you could copy and paste keyframes from as required. I don't know if this qualifies as a 'workaround' or a usage technique but hey, if it works then why not use it?:D
HTH |
Post by W!ZARD // May 30, 2008, 5:44am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Though this may not help with troubleshooting the problem, W!zard's post here gave me an idea. Not sure if this is already implemented but we should be able to store poses in a Pose Library. We can create our own libraries in the library browser.
Could be a good idea Froo. Of course for this to work we would all need to be using the same naming structure for our bones. This is one of the main reasons I like to use skeletons from BVH files even if I don't use BVH motion data. I use a .BVH skeleton, remove the anim data and keyframe my own animation. Later, if I want to add more motion captured data I'm already using a compatible skeleton. |
Post by frootee // May 30, 2008, 6:18am
|
frootee
Total Posts: 2667
|
Hi W!zard. What I mean is, we can already create our own custom libraries in truespace. So, say, for Tiles's garden gnome (well at least that's what I call it), he could create several default poses, and store them in a Pose library.
I think I remember reading about this already, in the user manual for 7.51 btw... I dunno... |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 30, 2008, 6:27am
|
Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
|
If I recall correctly default pose can be set on a per joint basis. Tiles, could it be that you have a joint selected instead of the skeleton when you are setting or recalling the default pose? :confused:
On a more feature request oriented note: having a dedicated interface with the ability to store multiple named poses for recalling and blending would be very useful. |
Post by jamesmc // May 30, 2008, 6:28am
|
jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
|
If I recall correctly default pose can be set on a per joint basis. Tiles, could it be that you have a joint selected instead of the skeleton when you are setting or recalling the default pose? :confused:
On a more feature request note, having a dedicated interface with the ability to store multiple named poses for recalling and blending would be very useful.
That's what usually happens when my default goes foopha, I have a joint selected. |
Post by Tiles // May 30, 2008, 6:45am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
So, say, for Tiles's garden gnome (well at least that's what I call it)
Call him Winnie the Wizard. Else he may become angry and turn you into a mouse :D
The hat isn't ready textured. I miss some stars and a sun and a moon at it. And he will also get a cigar and a stick at a later stage :)
Tiles, could it be that you have a joint selected instead of the skeleton when you are setting or recalling the default pose?
It not only happens with that. It is a gerneral problem. Playing around with the joint setup when you still have a working default pose makes the trouble here. As stated by Tomas:
if you set default pose before setting joint limits, then joint orientations set during reset pose can be clamped if default pose was outside limits.
My point now is that we are in heavy trouble with that. There is always something to tweak at a rig. Which can shoot down the whole rig when we touch a joint.
What i wanted to see with the library idea is something that Motion Studio has under the poses tab. You can store an open hand or a closed hand and use it at the rig at any stage, you can even store complete poses with it. It stores from the current bone downwards. Made my life soo easy. That one would be great to have at the new bones :)
But honestly i would be much happier when the current bones gets its needed bug fixes first ;) |
Post by frootee // May 30, 2008, 7:02am
|
frootee
Total Posts: 2667
|
Ah OK Tiles. So, judging by your avatar, you made Winnie mad eh? At least once? :D:D:D |
Post by Tiles // May 30, 2008, 7:03am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Every day :D |
Post by frootee // May 30, 2008, 7:04am
|
frootee
Total Posts: 2667
|
hahaha! :D |
Post by W!ZARD // May 30, 2008, 7:10am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Hi tiles - took me a while to reproduce the only problem I've ever had with the resetting of poses - sometimes not all of the default pose info gets captured as you can see in this video. However it does show the workflow I use to get around this minor problem. With a bit of luck it may well work for you too.
As you noted this skeleton is derived from a .BVH file and so conforms to standard bone naming conventions - other thasn that it should be essentially the same as a skeleton you build yourself. Note that this skele has no joint limits set so this is also a variable that may affect your outcome.
Good luck and here's hoping it works for you!
Rats! Once again these forums won't allow me to upload a medium sized file :mad:. You can however see the video here (http://dc68.4shared.com/download/49529230/3f84c3a8/Skeletest.wmv?dsid=JFKMIMJAJFGCIGHWJDJJIIKRKOISJDK TIBIJICJIIVJDJHKOJBKLIVKLHXJIGCHWIEICGGJYJAKKIU) |
Post by W!ZARD // May 30, 2008, 7:13am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Hi W!zard. What I mean is, we can already create our own custom libraries in truespace. So, say, for Tiles's garden gnome (well at least that's what I call it), he could create several default poses, and store them in a Pose library.
I think I remember reading about this already, in the user manual for 7.51 btw... I dunno...
Ah I see. We can already do that - in fact not just poses but entire animation clips - the non linear animation editing is great fun! |
Post by Igor K Handel // May 30, 2008, 7:13am
|
Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
|
In reply to Wiz.
Many thanks for your input as ever reasoned and calm. I have "chilled out" now and will await developments.
As an aside oil on wooden based keys is very bad idea. It swells the wood and ensures very sticky if not completely jammed keys. The instruments I sold were all reconditioned/ rebuilt, so it wasn't a case of informing the manufactuer, it was a case of quality control inhouse at the buying but mainly the reconditioning stage.
I guess I try to say that the level of quality control was very largely a very specific choice. I chose at what quality level a product should be sold as minimum. To sum up, I politely request a relook at these levels before releases.
Though your suggestion does remind me of a violin pupil who arrived to his lesson with gleaming violin. Daddy had cleaned/polished it. However what daddy didn't see was little Jimmy's chin, neck and shirt collar completely covered in brown shoe polish.. I couldn't resist and let Jimmy unknowningly spend the lesson looking completely hilarious. Everytime I was about to burst out laughing I had to look out of the window.
yours
ik |
Post by Tiles // May 30, 2008, 7:22am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Heh, yea, this is mean. The form to upload attachments states that 20 Mb WMV are allowed. But once it goes over 3 or 4 MB ... :p
Thanks Wizard for this Video. But that`s not what i talk about. I talk about when you edit a joint here now, when you change its freedom for example, or its rotation, then it can happen that the current default pose gets destroyed. When you click at the reset pose button the skeleton doesn't reset to the once stored pose anymore. And then you sit there with a bunch of bones that are out of position and no working pose anymore. Funny one when your hand is affected. And that could mean to start the rig from scratch when you need a clean pose. |
Post by trueBlue // May 30, 2008, 7:35am
|
trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
|
Tiles: I would hate to think you would have to start from scratch when you run into your issues. Would it not be better to save your character with it's default Pose? I suspect that you are not exiting tools before using other tools may be why you are having some of these issues. HTH |
Post by Tiles // May 30, 2008, 7:39am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
Hmm.
Okay, now let's save my default pose to library. While animation i notice that one joint has not enough freedom. No problem. Just enter the joint, adjust it, hit default pose and get prompted with a destroyed default pose. Means i would have the choice between the stored default pose with the joint that has not enough freedom, or a working freedom but a destroyed default pose. And this would mean to start again with the rig. Or at least to go back to the last scene before i have set the default pose.
The point of no return is always the point where i set the default pose. So if even i better save the moment before i set the default pose. And that is unfortunately the point where you have to return to. Even when you would be half through with your animation.
Is it now clearer what i mean? :) |
Post by tomasb // May 30, 2008, 7:54am
|
tomasb
Total Posts: 261
|
if you know what joint is causing the problem - try to set it's Z joint rot limits eg to 90 and reset pose.
this whole default pose problem occurs because of dependencies between euler angles; for some X,Y settings Z must be rotated slightly; hopefully i can find a solution to this. |
Post by trueBlue // May 30, 2008, 7:57am
|
trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
|
I am sorry but I am reading what you are saying and I do not see where you are exiting a tool by right clicking in an empty D3D View space. Then Set or Reset the Default pose. Might be worth a try anyway. I know of no software that can read minds. :)
I am not denying that this will resolve your issue only suggesting a possible vital step that you may be missing in your workflow. HTH |
Post by jamesmc // May 30, 2008, 8:06am
|
jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
|
I am sorry but I am reading what you are saying and I do not see where you are exiting a tool by right clicking in an empty D3D View space. Then Set or Reset the Default pose. Might be worth a try anyway. I know of no software that can read minds. :)
I am not denying that this will resolve your issue only suggesting a possible vital step that you may be missing in your workflow. HTH
But you would be wrong! There is software that can read minds! :)
http://www.tucows.com/preview/58142 |
Post by Tiles // May 30, 2008, 8:10am
|
Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
|
I have the feeling that we misunderstand us here trueBlue. I have totally lost the track here at the moment. Right click? Leaving what tool? Ah, wait, you suggest to leave the tool first between the actions? That doesn't change it. But thanks for the suggestion :)
if you know what joint is causing the problem - try to set it's Z joint rot limits eg to 90 and reset pose.
this whole default pose problem occurs because of dependencies between euler angles; for some X,Y settings Z must be rotated slightly; hopefully i can find a solution to this.
I see. Evil euler angles. Thanks for the workaround. And i keep my fingers crossed that you find a solution for this. Good luck with it :) |
Post by Heidi // May 30, 2008, 8:50am
|
Heidi
Total Posts: 335
|
I save a single-frame animation clip of my default pose.
I can then either copy and paste the default-pose keyframe, if I need to go back to default pose in mid animation or I can just apply the default pose to start over. And it doesn't impose any old joint limits.
Once I have the default pose applied I delete it's animation track. |
Post by W!ZARD // May 30, 2008, 8:49pm
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
I save a single-frame animation clip of my default pose.
I can then either copy and paste the default-pose keyframe, if I need to go back to default pose in mid animation or I can just apply the default pose to start over. And it doesn't impose any old joint limits.
Once I have the default pose applied I delete it's animation track.
LOL! That's what I tried to say only I used far more words!!
Additionally I always work on a copy of my character or model so if I make ythings go pear-shaped I don't have to go back and repeat to much work that I've already done.
@Tiles, sorry my video didn't help. I'm still not %100 sure I am understanding your problem. Since I use a lot of .BVH files I haven't done much setting of joint limits but when I was using my own built skeletons and setting joint limits I found that by setting the motion range whilst in the default pose and by keeping the joint limit widgets relatively symmetrical and setting the range to slightly beyond what I would normally require I had no need to reset joint limits later.
I also save at each successful point and work with a copy. Thus I have a range of saved versions of my character, each one slightly more advanced than the last.
Sometimes things go wrong - because I've not set them up correctly and/or because of the natural limitations of the software. I just go back one or two steps and redo the troublesome bit again until I get a stable result that I can save and copy to work on for the next stage.
Of course this is not ideal and can lead to all sorts of unexpected complications - in my last movie instalment the Witches glasses suddenly disappear with no explaination due to this way o working - I never noticed till far too late:o
What's cool though is to see someone persevering and still looking for a successful outcome despite the limitations of the software and the sheer complexity involved in getting a stable character rigged and useable. It's also very cool to see another wizard on the forums - Winnie looks like a good character to have around!! |
|
