|
|
Domes
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Domes // Work in Progress
Post by W!ZARD // Oct 8, 2007, 10:26pm
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Well it's been a wee while! I've been severely limited in PC time due to the hassles of moving house - and prior to that I was doing lots of exploration of tS 7.51 and realtime scenes.
Now however I've had some time to do some good old fashioned modelling. Firstly a nod to the inspiration for this picture - some time ago I saw some advertising for a model package called Castle Builder 2 and was inspired to ... well basically steal the idea and build my own castle builder for my own use. Some of the results are used in this scene.
Other info - some of the background buildings have been used before (I built them for my Venice scene) and the people are my home-made crowd, also seen in other works of mine.
The Dhow - the lateen sailed ship - is the latest addition to my slowly growing fleet of sailing ships.
The background is a MojoWorld render using Dmetrys fabulous volumetric plug in and is based on the 'Alpine Lakes' world by... um... sorry I've forgotten, how rude of me, I think it may come with the volumtric plug-in.
Rendered in LightWorks using simple volumetrics, an IBL and an infinite light for the sky.
I'm pretty happy with the result so far but I've also been looking at this for so long I'm sure to be overlooking something - and if I post this in the finished artworks forum everyone will start pointing out what I missed! :D
So here's your chance, all suggestions, compliments, criticisms and complaints gladly received.....
Thanks in advance ;) |
Post by classic12 // Oct 8, 2007, 10:34pm
|
classic12
Total Posts: 243
|
Amazing work again! you people are throwing out some pretty nifty things latley nice modeling and detail on all the buildings :banana: |
Post by Georg // Oct 9, 2007, 12:14am
|
Georg
Total Posts: 270
|
As usual, stunning picture with beautiful lighting.
I really missed your pictures these past weeks!
A comment would be your dhow ship that is now sailing out of the picture. Turning it around would form a nice arrow pointing to your castle.
Georg |
Post by Nez // Oct 9, 2007, 12:52am
|
Nez
Total Posts: 1102
|
Good to see you 'back in the saddle' W!zard - hope you're settling in well at the new place.
I like the overall effect, though it seems to me that the sky is almost a little too photo-real for the modelled parts? Doesn't have quite the same 'dreaminess' as some of your other backdrops perhaps?
The other thing that seems a little odd to my eye is that the buildings in the background look a bit light or perhaps overlit? From the sun angle, the near-side of the buildings ought perhaps to be in more shadow?
Just when I was beginning to consider entering one of my old pieces in the Gallery, I see a whole bunch of pieces being created on the forum that would give me a whupping...:o |
Post by jamesmc // Oct 9, 2007, 1:35am
|
jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
|
Absolutely fabulous!
Love the buildings, so much detail!
The render is extraordinary. Richly and skillfully portrayed. |
Post by Steinie // Oct 9, 2007, 1:37am
|
Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
|
The white faced building in the center and the two windows to the right of it, both out of contrast balance compared to the rendering overall. (too white and too black). The work has a washed out, dreamy look to it.
If you want to push this piece a little further I would give the towns sprocket foundation some variety using moss growth or small plants.
It is one of your signature pieces which I always admire!
Nez you don't win if you don't enter.;) |
Post by splinters // Oct 9, 2007, 2:08am
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Wizard, you know that a lot of your fantasy/fairy stuff is not my cup of tea but you have it nailed artistically here. I always like to see this sort of stuff from you because it is done so well.
Lotta respect for you creatively and personally. Nice job...:D |
Post by W!ZARD // Oct 9, 2007, 3:56am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Thanks for the input folks
@Georg - good point about the ship leaving the picture, usually a composition no-no. I've tried to create a strong impliued diagonal linethat emphasises the shape of the ships sails and extends through to tops of the domed buildings to the top right corner - not sure if this works as well as I'd hoped. Also the ship sailing out of the picture gives a sense of implied space (I hope). I tried the ship im many different positions, angles and scales and this one worked the best for me.
@Nez - LOL, I guess it's a testament to MojoWorld and the volumetric plug in if the sky seems too real! It's ironic you should say "Doesn't have quite the same 'dreaminess' as some of your other backdrops perhaps?" because the majority of my previous scenic backgrounds are actually photos!
Your point about the middle distance buildings is valid though - with the sun setting behind them they probably should be more silhouetted. The textures are light to begin with and the volumetrics brightens then even more - I will try darkening the textures themselves somewhat to fix this.
Oh yeah Nez - I won my copy of mojo with a tS picture that wasn't actually the final image I had intended - it was a work in progress that I sent in to 3dcommunes fantastic worlds competition on a whim! You gotta be in to win.
@Steinie - Thanx Bob - I can always rely on you for solid feedback! I guess the 'contrast balance' you refer to is what Nez mentioned re the brightness of the middle distance buildings - I'll attempt to adjust that. I'll also see about adding some moss :D
Splinters - I figure I'm on the right track if you think I've 'nailed it artistically'!
Jamesmc - nice to see you came back to the forums James and thanks for the encouraging feedback to you and to classic12. |
Post by 2much4U // Oct 9, 2007, 4:46am
|
2much4U
Total Posts: 430
|
Excellently done! I can see this going into the gallery already!:D
Perhaps do some color correcting? Also, I have a feeling it would look good to have a flock of birds in the sky.... |
Post by X-PaX // Oct 9, 2007, 5:03am
|
X-PaX
Total Posts: 12
|
Beautiful picture.
I agree with 2much4u. The birds idea came into my mind also. |
Post by jayr // Oct 9, 2007, 6:28am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
Excellent stuff Wizard! You've really developed a style of your own, love the sky in this pic. |
Post by MadMouse // Oct 9, 2007, 10:46pm
|
MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
|
As always Stephen you never fail to disappoint.
The only thing that I'm not too keen on is the clouds in the background.
They don't quite fit the rest of the image.
Other than that its another W!ZARD classic. |
Post by W!ZARD // Oct 10, 2007, 6:45pm
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
@MadMouse - "...never fail to disappoint..." ? So I succeeded in disappointing you then? Well it's good to know I'm good at something!!!;)
I'm curious though, you say the clouds don't quite fit. Can you say why? What is it about the clouds that doesn't fit? Nez mentioned that the sky looked almost too photoreal for the rest of the scene. Any suggestions you could make would be appreciated.
Anyhoo - here's the latest incarnation. Big thanks to steinie for spotting the contrast mismatch on the middle distance buildings - the materials on those buildings all had a degree of luminance in the materials which I have since removed.
X-pax and 2much4u - a flock of birds as requested. |
Post by MadMouse // Oct 10, 2007, 9:51pm
|
MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
|
As always Stephen you never fail to disappoint.
Whoops! sorry buddy. If only I could type as fast as I think. What I meant to say is the complete opposite of what I did :D Maybe I should try a career in politics ;):D
As for the sky... Hmmm I afraid I don't know really know why, just something looks wrong to my eyes. I know thats not a lot of help so feel free to ignore me ;):D |
Post by splinters // Oct 10, 2007, 11:19pm
|
splinters
Total Posts: 4148
|
Sky seems to lack depth and volume compared to the rest...that is only my thought here...:rolleyes: |
Post by butterpaw // Oct 11, 2007, 2:13am
|
butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
|
I love the lighting in this version, overall, although I agree that the sky isn't quite right.. too much of a beginner to know what exactly, is the reason. Still a very beautiful scene, and I do very much like the triangle.. the eye moves round the image nicely :)
@Mad Mouse - as one whose stumbling fingers betray her constantly, I immediately knew what you meant - "ever fail to disappoint" - of course! But our fingers don't always obey, and waggle on their merry way... :D |
Post by Steinie // Oct 11, 2007, 6:01am
|
Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
|
One reason the sky might seem weird,
In the Application you created the sky does it have the same horizon location as in this rendering? It could be a perspective mismatch. |
Post by opiejuan // Oct 11, 2007, 8:48am
|
opiejuan
Total Posts: 120
|
My take on the sky off-ness isn't the clouds themselves...it's the color of the sunlight in the scene. Bright whitish sun...creamy yellowish cloud edges. Not sure about the position of the sun either. At that 'lowness' seems like the shadows would be deeper and darker. Just my $.01 worth :)
It still is an amazing image. Good work!
Opie |
Post by manxie // Oct 11, 2007, 9:50am
|
manxie
Total Posts: 76
|
I think the foreground would be a little darker considering the amount of light in the scene, also a little d.o.f. in the background image might look good, but as it is, its still a damn good piece of artwork, well done wizard. |
Post by Improv // Oct 11, 2007, 10:41am
|
Improv
Total Posts: 0
|
Did you do all of the drawing and colouring in TrueSpace? Or did you use PhotoShop or Painter or similar?
What would your work flow be for a work like this?
Thanks. |
Post by W!ZARD // Oct 13, 2007, 8:53pm
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Thanks so much for all the input folks - some good food for thought there.
@Madmouse - :D S'okay mate, I knew what you meant. And your comment about the sky has triggered some other suggestions which has lead me to a possible answer - more on that below....
For everyone else who offered their thoughts on the sky here is the image I used as it comes straight out of mojoworld (resized for the forum). As you can see the tonal range is a little flat. trueSpaces volumetric lighting adds a definite colour cast and the trueSpace scene also has a bluish infinite light pointing straight down to represent general skylight. Most of the infill lighting comes from an IBL which uses the mojo image as a reference, a technique that I've used before with reasonable results.
Based on the suggestions made I am wondering if the 'flatness' of the sky is actually a function of differing levels of volumetrics between the mojo render background and the tS final render?
Steinies perspective mismatch suggestion is possible too as I don't know how to match the camera 'focal width' between the two apps.
Several people mentioned the brightness of the buildings and yes they should be more silhuoetted against the setting sun but then no-one can see my marvellous modells! :D Chalk that up to artistic licence!
@improv - "What would your work flow be for a work like this?". LOL, well for a start it was more like a work dribble than a workflow! This was mostly due to pressing realworld issues like having to move house!
I had a rough idea in my mind of what I was after as an end result - a great deal of time was taken looking for the ideal skyscape in MojoWorld. The volumetric plug-in in Mojo is a slow renderer and I was often setting up test renders and leaving them to cook overnight. For the sake of speed and the fact that Mojo is installed on my main pc this meant that some of the building models were actually created on my old pc using tS 6.6 while skies rendered on my main machine.
I transfered the completed models to my faster pc and used tS 7.51 to actually put everything together. The background picture is the pick of the mojo renders and some of the background buildings are from an earlier scene I did as are the people and trees.
All of the textures are created using photo references which are extensively altered in either trueSpace itself or using the GIMP. I'm a huge fan of layered materials using the LW material editor and there are lots of layered textures in this picture.
I almost always texture and UV my models as I build them although many folk model and texture seperately. For setting up the lighting I use a small window and do test renders of the entire scene in that - and often browse the forums on my other pc while those test renders cook!
In this particular case the workflow was rather broken up due to time restrictions. It's a HUGE advantage to have a second PC as I can be modelling for one scene on one machine whilst test renders cook on the other although this is becoming something that I'm doing less of as I tend to use more of the WorkSpace modelling tools and I have only got a single tS 7 licence for a single machine and so it's installed on my faster pc.
There is a small amount of brightness and contrast tweaking of the final tS 7 LW render which I did with Irfanview plus the resizing (original render is 1600x1200) and jpeg conversion but what you see in the picture above is pretty much as it came out of tS.
I'm considering some further tweaks including the addition of some subtle atmospheric fog using a depth rendered layer in the GIMP and maybe painting in a small bow wave for the ship but I'm also keen to move on to the next picture!
Hope this helps. |
Post by butterpaw // Oct 14, 2007, 4:07am
|
butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
|
Just a thought, as I stare at this wondering...
A consequence of modeling and rendering almost anything is a certain degree of simplification ... tiny wispy things tend to be reduced or eliminated. However, the clouds seem to me to be a lot more detailed/wispy etc than anything in the foreground (including the water) ... perhaps a slight simplification? If I were working in PSP to match up different elements, I might remove a few of the tiniest wisps, and apply a touch of 'edge preserving smooth' - not much of either of these, mind you...
Well it might be something to experiment with if it interests you.. I'm just throwing it out there, because otherwise it's a beautiful sky, e.g., the shape /arrangement of the clouds is lovely, framing the scene, so .. eh well ... :rolleyes:
Butterpaw wanders off muttering to herself...
^_^ |
Post by Improv // Oct 15, 2007, 9:47am
|
Improv
Total Posts: 0
|
Thanks, Wizard. I'm not familiar with Mojoworld. I figured that much of the foreground buildings etc had to have been done in a prog such as Painter, ArtRage, Photoshop, etc because of the 'painterly' look.
To me, it looks so 2d that I don't see why you would use TS except for the final lighting, rendering,etc.
Let's put it this way-why NOT use say Corel Painter for this? Is it just personal preferences?
I really am interested because your work doesn't look like the typical 3d look that we see here a lot.
Am I making any sense? :confused:
@improv - "What would your work flow be for a work like this?". LOL, well for a start it was more like a work dribble than a workflow! This was mostly due to pressing realworld issues like having to move house!
I had a rough idea in my mind of what I was after as an end result - a great deal of time was taken looking for the ideal skyscape in MojoWorld. The volumetric plug-in in Mojo is a slow renderer and I was often setting up test renders and leaving them to cook overnight. For the sake of speed and the fact that Mojo is installed on my main pc this meant that some of the building models were actually created on my old pc using tS 6.6 while skies rendered on my main machine.
I transfered the completed models to my faster pc and used tS 7.51 to actually put everything together. The background picture is the pick of the mojo renders and some of the background buildings are from an earlier scene I did as are the people and trees.
All of the textures are created using photo references which are extensively altered in either trueSpace itself or using the GIMP. I'm a huge fan of layered materials using the LW material editor and there are lots of layered textures in this picture.
I almost always texture and UV my models as I build them although many folk model and texture seperately. For setting up the lighting I use a small window and do test renders of the entire scene in that - and often browse the forums on my other pc while those test renders cook!
In this particular case the workflow was rather broken up due to time restrictions. It's a HUGE advantage to have a second PC as I can be modelling for one scene on one machine whilst test renders cook on the other although this is becoming something that I'm doing less of as I tend to use more of the WorkSpace modelling tools and I have only got a single tS 7 licence for a single machine and so it's installed on my faster pc.
There is a small amount of brightness and contrast tweaking of the final tS 7 LW render which I did with Irfanview plus the resizing (original render is 1600x1200) and jpeg conversion but what you see in the picture above is pretty much as it came out of tS.
I'm considering some further tweaks including the addition of some subtle atmospheric fog using a depth rendered layer in the GIMP and maybe painting in a small bow wave for the ship but I'm also keen to move on to the next picture!
Hope this helps. |
Post by jayr // Oct 15, 2007, 9:58am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
To me, it looks so 2d that I don't see why you would use TS except for the final lighting, rendering,etc.
Let's put it this way-why NOT use say Corel Painter for this? Is it just personal preferences?
Thats a problem i had for a while, modeling something for ages when it would ahve been easier to paint it! But i think the buildings here are models (correct me if i'm wrong please wizard) and the beauty of 3D is you can re-use models eaisily
I really am interested because your work doesn't look like the typical 3d look that we see here a lot.
That's probably one of the best complements i've heard for 3D work. |
Post by Improv // Oct 15, 2007, 12:42pm
|
Improv
Total Posts: 0
|
Thats a problem i had for a while, modeling something for ages when it would ahve been easier to paint it! But i think the buildings here are models (correct me if i'm wrong please wizard) and the beauty of 3D is you can re-use models eaisily
Don't know that it's a problem exactly. Whatever tools get the job done. This looked more like a very good illustration that had been painted in water colours in a quite realistic style. To me, if you want to reproduce real media type brush strokes and styles, then use Painter or PhotoShop. Painter even advertises itself as 'features unique digital brushes, art materials and textures that mirror the look and feel of their traditional counterparts.' I use Painter and can't see why you would use TS to do a work like this. That's not a put down btw, Wizard.
I guess this work is just an unconventional use of TS! <shrug>
That's probably one of the best complements i've heard for 3D work.
It was meant as a compliment. :-) |
Post by W!ZARD // Oct 16, 2007, 12:01am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Let's put it this way-why NOT use say Corel Painter for this? Is it just personal preferences? What an interesting question Improv! Like most interesting questions it has more than one answer!
Firstly, and perhaps most prosaically, is I operate on a very limited budget and so tend to use the software that I have (IE tS, The GIMP, MojoWorld 3 Pro, Vue 5 Esprit, Terragen) rather than (of course) the software I D'ONT have!! (IE Corel Draw) :D.
Secondly, whilst I've dabbled with pens, pencils and brushes for most of my life I've always had a great love of photography (which I got from my Dad who worked in the NewsPaper industry). For many years photography (combined with a love of motorcycles and New Zealands scenery) was my second hobby of choice (after my guitar).
I got into computers primarily so I could record my songs and music. One day I loaded up terragen from a PC magazine cover disc and became instantly hooked on 3d art. As a photographer, particulary one who looked for the 'otherworldy' in my photos, I'd always felt limited by what the camera lens could see - especially when it came to the play of light off water and stone and leaf and so on.
With a 3d application like trueSpace I can simulate that play of light off any object I can model. Additionally the act of modeling, actually building the geometry, is also great fun (I was an Airfix addict as a kid!). Thus trueSpace fulfills me in several ways, I get to build things (without accidentally gluing my fingers together!!) and I get to 'photograph' things with complete control over the 'weather' - no more sitting around waiting for sunset to provide interesting lighting conditions to take photos in! (Jayr is correct, all these buildings and objects are 3d models and some of them have been used over and over again - that flock of birds in particular has been seen in many of my scenes;).
Lastly, with a 3d app there is a sense of building a 'real' world. With Raytracing there is also a sense of 'creating' a play of light (the intro to the tS manual talks about 'painting with light') that I find both fascinating and hugely satisfying.
As to the 'painterly' look of some of my work - well it's intentional in the sense of composition and the overall colour casts (a function of my use of IBLs) but I'm not trying to create a 'painted' look as such. Many of the textures I use are photographic images but I often use two or three layers to each texture. I'm also a fan of volumetric and fog effects which often lend a further colour cast and a softening of the textures used. In this particular picture the volumetric shadows cast by the domes and spires was something I specifically wanted, however this degree of volumetrics tends to wash out texture detail so there is an element of creative compromise and artistic licence involved here!
I really am interested because your work doesn't look like the typical 3d look that we see here a lot. Thanks, that's quite a compliment. I do strive to create my own 'look' with my work although it's very difficult to come up with something truly unique - the vast majority of Art is a re-imagining of earlier works by other people. Check out the works of artists like Rochr and Hobbit over at Renderosity as well as more traditional artists like Roger Dean, Chris Foss, Frank Frazetta........
Anyway I hope that answers your question |
Post by TomG // Oct 16, 2007, 2:15am
|
TomG
Total Posts: 3397
|
Can't find a simple description, so here is how it looks to my eyes. In the image it looks like the clouds are on a vertical plane facing the viewer, rather than on a horzontal plane stretching out into the distance (and placed up above the viewer's head). Not that they are placed on planes, just describing the appearance of them.
So there's no sense of distance or perspective in the clouds. That's just an impression I get for my eyes, so may not be what others see :)
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by W!ZARD // Oct 16, 2007, 2:31am
|
W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
|
Can't find a simple description, so here is how it looks to my eyes. In the image it looks like the clouds are on a vertical plane facing the viewer, rather than on a horzontal plane stretching out into the distance (and placed up above the viewer's head). Not that they are placed on planes, just describing the appearance of them.
So there's no sense of distance or perspective in the clouds. That's just an impression I get for my eyes, so may not be what others see :)
Thanks!
Tom
Thanks for the input Tom - now you point it out like that I can see what you mean - do you think this applies to the actual Mojo render or just the final tS render?
Now you've got me wondering if I have a 'wide angle lens' thing happening with the Mojo render itself.
Hmmn - I was going to bed but now I think I'll boot up Mojo and see what settings I bused on the camera.
Thanks again Tom - I always value your input. |
Post by jayr // Oct 16, 2007, 4:01am
|
jayr
Total Posts: 1074
|
could you put the sky on a dome insted? maybe with cloud formations on alpha mapped planes? |
Post by Improv // Oct 16, 2007, 10:43am
|
Improv
Total Posts: 0
|
What an interesting question Improv! Like most interesting questions it has more than one answer!
Indeed.
Firstly, and perhaps most prosaically, is I operate on a very limited budget and so tend to use the software that I have (IE tS, The GIMP, MojoWorld 3 Pro, Vue 5 Esprit, Terragen) rather than (of course) the software I D'ONT have!! (IE Corel Draw) :D.
Yes, but then that's true of most of us! ;)
Secondly, whilst I've dabbled with pens, pencils and brushes for most of my life I've always had a great love of photography.
As you may be aware, many others are using Painter and Photoshop to enhance photos in a painterly manner. You seem to be doing a similar thing, but going in a more 3d enhanced fashion. That's cool.
I got into computers primarily so I could record my songs and music.
I've played guitar for years and one day in 1989 I was in my music store. They had an Atari ST 1024 set up with Edit Tracks sequencer. As soon as I saw it, it made instant sense to me. I was used to programming synths and drum machines on little one line, 16 character led displays. Having all the midi and track info onscreen at once made perfect instant sense to me. I bought it on the spot! :-)
Thanks for your many insights, it made for interesting reading and understanding.
Thanks, that's quite a compliment. I do strive to create my own 'look' with my work although it's very difficult to come up with something truly unique - the vast majority of Art is a re-imagining of earlier works by other people.
Stretching boundaries is what it should be about if you're using a graphics program like TS, Painter, Maya for yourself. If I ever see another swooshy,swoopy car or a warrior with plastic skin; it'll be too soon-boring!
Check out the works of artists like Rochr and Hobbit over at Renderosity as well as more traditional artists like Roger Dean, Chris Foss, Frank Frazetta........
Thanks for the tip-I've obviously heard of Dean from the Yes covers, the others I'll look for.
Cheers |
|
