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Orbicles
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Orbicles // Work in Progress
Post by butterpaw // Nov 6, 2007, 5:16pm
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Jack I see you've chimed in with yet another option! .. wow I haven't tried glue, and am not sure exactly what happens when it's used, but I see it's something else to investigate
This is a very interesting discussion, indeed, and I see that each person perceives boolean operations with varying degrees of approval or approbation.
Also, I think I see that it is not a straightforward matter to choose surfaces to be either single-sided or double sided... a few hoops to jump through first.
;) (you know I have to go try that out) ^_^ |
Post by Nez // Nov 6, 2007, 11:02pm
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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I must admit that - using older versions of TrueSpace at least - I've never encountered a major problem with doing a boolean subtract of one smaller sphere from inside a larger sphere (TS usually seems bright enough to understand what I'm after), so I'm not quite sure why you are not able to select the smaller sphere.
I confess I do a substantial amount of my work in wireframe mode rather than a shaded view and this does seem to make selection issues a little less common, so I don't know if that would help. Perhaps there needs to be an alternative option when doing boolean operations to pick your 'cutting' object from a list box rather than directly on screen... |
Post by W!ZARD // Nov 7, 2007, 1:13am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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OK BP here's what I just did.
1, hide all layers except for lights.
2. Create new layer
3. Set display prefs to Wireframe
4. Create sphere and apply texture (any texture will do at this stage)
5. Copy sphere and resize
6. Applied different texture to smaller sphere
7. moved viewpoint close to nested spheres, so they almost fill window
8. Select outer sphere
9. click Object Subtraction tool and click the centre of your window.
trueSpace will automatically selct the inner sphere, subtract it from the outer sphere and paint the interior with the smaller spheres texture (this allows you to later use the 'Paint over existing material' tool to easily apply whatever textures you like to the inside and outside of your hollow sphere.
The advantage of this technique is that by having different textures on the inside and outside you can select b the inside or outside faces seperately (Point edit mode, freehand select with control key selects all faces with the material that you click on) which allows you to use different UV coordinates, textures and so on. This approach is far faster than using the shell tool and then painting the inside faces trough a hole.
This was all done (in about 20 seconds) on Model side of tS7.51. By putting your boolean objects onto their own layer and moving in close there is no ambiguity as to which sphere is subtracted from which. Assuming you have the order of operation right as discussed earlier you shouldn't have any problems.
I subsequently subtracted another sphere so you can see the internal textures.
Hope this helps. |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 7, 2007, 5:46am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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@ W!ZARD - thanks this is very clear. I have another question though...
are the subtraction settings shown in your image the same as you used for the subtraction you described (i.e. not just for the extra sphere subtraction to show the inside)?
As to the two colors, I check the color by zooming in until I'm in the middle of the sphere and can see the inner faces, but maybe I'm doing something wrong there? Anyway I am not able to reproduce your results. I get a sphere with color (material) on both outside and inside, but can't seem to get a different color inside from the outside. I have been applying only the most basic coloring (which I assume still counts as texture) ...
" Point edit mode, freehand select with control key selects all faces with the material that you click on" I think I'm doing that right but it colors the outside and the inside in one go.
thanks!
^_^ |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 7, 2007, 9:23am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Well having re-read instructions, and re-read relevant section of manual.. I think I may have tripped up somewhere .. so let me have another go ... before you need to give any more explanations. ^_^
I hope y'all aren't getting too bored with this (at least there are plenty of other really good projects going on :)), but it's a sticking point for me and I want to figure out exactly what's happening.. (and I will try to report on that) then I can move on with this little project. :D |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 8, 2007, 2:22pm
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Thanks everyone for the detailed explanations of the different possible methods to do this.. I managed the subtraction perfectly and just as I attempted to save my results.. ker-aashhh! heh heh.. couldn't seem to do it again. so tried another method. I will still figure out why I couldn't repeat my first success but, oh well :D I haven't yet tried copying flipping normals and collapsing mesh, but I think that would be good if I prefer a thin shell, and there are definitely places I will use that. ;)
I discovered a number of little goodies along the way, lots of things about settings, and applying textures, and I've finally produced a shell :p
For this time, I went with the boolean shell operation, which gave me a thick shell
I figured out a different way to place these spheres in an equilateral triangle. In top view, I used a cylinder applied SDS, then copied twice and rotated 60deg. and 120deg. Placed a smaller central cylinder, after which placement of the spheres was quick and easy.
Also, I recorded the numerical info for all the spheres, so that I can quickly construct them any time. It may be less than perfect, but it's very close, and good enough for this purpose.
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I imported one of the smaller spheres into a new scene, and applied a chrome texture.
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I applied the boolean shell operation. Since it still did not apply the inside texture as it should have... I found the pesky hidden paint faces brush :D and applied another texture inside.
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And, finally, obicular propagation.. I can either import one and move it, or can copy one and move it.. using my little coordinates chart.
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Now, for some serious subtractions.. :D |
Post by W!ZARD // Nov 9, 2007, 12:07am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Yay! Great to see you are winning with this BP! Never underestimate the value of perseverance (or as my Dad would say, "give it a bit of Percy!").
As to the two colors, I check the color by zooming in until I'm in the middle of the sphere and can see the inner faces, but maybe I'm doing something wrong there? Anyway I am not able to reproduce your results. I get a sphere with color (material) on both outside and inside, but can't seem to get a different color inside from the outside. I have been applying only the most basic coloring (which I assume still counts as texture) ... - this sounds odd - not what I would expect. It's important to get the order of operation right:
1. create sphere and assign texture
2. copy sphere, resize, assign new texture
3. select larger sphere and subtract smaller sphere. The second texture should now be on the inside and the first texture on the outside.
Re the "freehand selection plus control key - this is such a useful technique that I'm sure you will not regret getting it figured out.
Try this: Create a new scene, create a cube using the default material.
Change the colour of the material in the Material editor (or select another material from a library). Use "paint faces" tool to apply your 2nd texture to some of the faces of the cube (but not to all faces).
Now right click your cube to enter Point edit mode. Left click the "Freehand Select" tool )in the point edit toolset). Hold down the Control Key and left click one of the textured faces on your cube - this should select every face that has the same texture and ignore every face with any other texture.
This can be really useful; say you've successfully extracted a sphere from a bigger sphere and you have seperate textures on the inside and outside. Now lets say you want the wall of your hollow sphere thicker or thinner. You can simply select the inside OR the outside faces by the texture they're painted with and resize until the wall is the exact size you want.
There's many ways you can use this approach.
HTH |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 9, 2007, 12:56am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Yes, this works!
My main problem, I think, was that I had not found the Paint Faces tool, and did not realize I had not found it. Once found, I used it to paint the desired faces one by one, and now that they are a different color/texture, they be can selected as a group as you suggest. Additionally, because I wasn't sure if I needed to use a different texture, I investigated and discovered more about that.
There are very many tools, allowing an enormous variety of solutions and work-flows - layers upon layers of possibilities! On the other hand, because there are so many, some are are not readily apparent, it takes [me] some time to discover and remember them. This little project has so far required me to discover quite a few of them in a very practical way.;)
Well, back to work :) |
Post by W!ZARD // Nov 9, 2007, 1:12am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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A word is worth 0.001 of a picture so I whipped this up in the hope it might help - It's done with tS 6.6 but works identically in tS 7.51 Model side.
I also wanted to mention another brilliant tool - the axis tool and the Object Info panel. For accurate placement of objects such as your three spheres you can try this.
1. Select a sphere (or whatever). Enter a '0' into the top 3 Location boxes in the Object Info Panel. This will centre you object at the middle of the scene.
2. Move the sphere so it is offset from that centre point
3. Click the "Move axes to centre of object tool" - the Object Info Panel will now show you the numerical position of the spheres axes. Enter 0,0,0, into the location boxes - the sphere remains where you left it but thre axes have moved to the Zero centre point of the scene.
4. Copy your sphere and enter '+120' into Z axis Rotation box of the object info panel.
Repeat step 4.
You'll now have 3 spheres precisely positioned in an equilateral triangle around the 0,0,0, point. Easy as pie.
Obviously these tools can save a lot of work and have many applications but I find them so handy I love telling people about them. Building models centred on the 0,0,0, point can be incredibly useful, particularly with complex and symmetrical models.
Hope this helps |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 9, 2007, 4:54am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Ooh thanks! I'll spend some time with this when I get home again ^_^ |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 10, 2007, 2:39pm
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Oh! axis tools are excellent!
Thanks W!Z :jumpy:
I decided to do some things over (yes, again!) and did my sphere subtractions again... better this time, I think. ;) and then did some more subtractions. So here's a little update pic:
9536 |
Post by W!ZARD // Nov 10, 2007, 10:04pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Glad to help Butterpaw. I've received so much useful adv ice from the good folk here - it's apleasure to 'pass it on'.
Well your Orbicle project looks like it's a fine learning experience. There's nothing quite so satisfying as learning somehing new - in fact the best way to avoid becoming an old dog is to keep learning new tricks!!:D
Re doing things over again - I often find when I'm building something that it requires at least three incarnations before I get it to a state I'm happy with. I hope you're happy with the progress you have made - I'm keen to see where this project of yours is going! |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 10, 2007, 10:43pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Ya know, W!ZARD may be on to somtin'. I am now down to 4 times redoing the whole dang thing from 5 times. Maybe that is a type of way to judge one's experience level in 3D. Hmm...
Keep up the great work Butterpaw. I don't know if it gets easier (since there's Always something new to learn), but I can promise you that you'll get faster at completing yours works. :) |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 10, 2007, 11:30pm
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Thanks guys for the help and encouragement! It makes all the difference.. well.. back to work :p |
Post by Nez // Nov 11, 2007, 11:41pm
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Nez
Total Posts: 1102
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And, finally, obicular propagation..
Think that's going to be my new favourite phrase for the week! Got to find a way to work it into as many conversations as possible!
Looking good Butterpaw - I'm curious as to what you have in mind for the interiors of the spheres - I actually considered making something vaguely along these lines (using toroids round a central shaft, rather than spheres) for the Dream House Challenge but decided all the custom furniture to fit curved rooms was going to be time consuming! |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 12, 2007, 5:31am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Heheh, Nez .. yeah Orbicular Propagation .. :D the mind boggles somewhat..I was attempting some "mathematical" humor (without the necessary credentials). Mathematicians tend to have a quirky sense of humor, (because numbers do things to your head? because they can get away with it?) which somehow always hits my funnybone.. makes my head go orbicular. :p
If you don't believe me.. just look at the book titles in a mathematics series* ^^_
My thoughts on furniture and furnishings are very fuzzy as yet .. :p I'll be interested to see your constructions too ^_^
*that is to say, the title in a book series on mathematics (I'm no mathematician - but I come across them working in a university library) :D
Here's some more contruction:
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Post by frootee // Nov 12, 2007, 6:06am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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If you don't believe me.. just look at the book titles in a mathematics series ^^_
Book titles in mathematical series? I've never seen that! I've only seen funny looking E's, and chicken scratch with
0's and arrows with a mobius strip in mathematical series... but never a book title...
Wait....
Oh I see what you mean! HAHA! :p
Just kidding! |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 12, 2007, 6:40am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Groan.. a punster among us :p ... thanks froo :D |
Post by butterpaw // Dec 1, 2007, 5:28pm
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Bet you thought I'd given up... :D but actually just been plodding along.. working things out...
Here are the middle levels that I have about as I want them (design-wise, anyway). ;)
9868 |
Post by W!ZARD // Dec 2, 2007, 12:21am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I don't think we're in North Carolina anymore Toto!
Looking good BP - you'll soon be our resident expert on boolean subtractions at this rate!
I'm pleased to know you're still 'plodding along' as I find this project of yours quite fascinating. Keep on plodding!!:D |
Post by butterpaw // Dec 2, 2007, 2:46am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Here's a bit more of the plod :D (and thanks for the encouragement!)
The 'walkways are open to the larger spheres and overlook their main floors ... as sort of mezzanine.. and would have railings or low walls
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On discussing this with another game modeler (well he's an architectural modeler but he's also modeling for our game)... he suggested that since there would be no inside/outside action... I should simply model an outside for the outside cutscenes, and the inside for actions... two models.. this is really easy to divide up this way, as the outside is really pretty simple.
Comments, reactions? :) |
Post by W!ZARD // Dec 2, 2007, 5:11am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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An excellent Idea - keeps your polycount a bit more manageable. I'm always tempted to try and model the whole thing - inside and out - in one scene but this is often not the best approach.
You keep plodding at this rate we'll have to upgrade you from a plod to a stroll!:D
Have a banana for even more encouragement!:banana: |
Post by butterpaw // Dec 2, 2007, 7:00am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Oooh thanks for the nanner ... love 'em!
Well one more .. a little render... then I have to start flipping the faces to the inside and work on the 'rooms', but at least I have the basics blocked out..
Up to this point has taken a really long time, and I lost count of the number of times I started over.. after 7 or 8 I just stopped bothering to keep track.. :D
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Post by 3dfrog // Dec 2, 2007, 12:39pm
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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Oh that render looks nice. You should be able to duplicate that look in game studio. Probably wont appear as smooth as the truespace render though. |
Post by butterpaw // Dec 2, 2007, 2:37pm
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Thanks, 3dfrog ... My main goal was to try to make the outside and inside shapes of this little project presentable for y'all. I just clicked a few boxes on the model page, not knowing much of anything about it.. and the render came out like that.. trueSpace is tres cool! ;)
... and yes.. I don't believe we'll achieve such a smooth look, but that's ok.. for the game I'd prefer a slightly different look anyway, and I'll deal with that later. Now on with some details... ^_^ |
Post by butterpaw // Dec 3, 2007, 4:32am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Here's a handy item .. since orbicles has gravity ... I guess the bumps in the poles are from the texture - the mesh is smooth...
9886 |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Dec 4, 2007, 12:16am
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Nice Lift Car and Orbicles there Butter!
And no... I didn't forget.;)
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=54660&postcount=2 (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=54660&postcount=2)
See you there!:D
- Mark / 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dfrog // Dec 5, 2007, 4:29am
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3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
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nice lift. I like the texture. |
Post by butterpaw // Dec 5, 2007, 5:11am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Thanks! I have no clue what I'm doing in that respect.. I'll probably find I have to change everything when I get serious about realtime rendering :p
but it's such fun to play with the textures for now :D |
Post by Dragneye // Dec 5, 2007, 2:54pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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It's coming along nicely Butterpaw
... don't feel bad; I'm on my 9th model of the bird I'm workin on. Heck, and that's just one bird!
... me (and my machine) are very poly-conscious, so whether a novice tactic, or a smart idea, I for one find myself cheating. Once having figured out what side will be seen by the camera and what wont, I delete many vertices on the 'blind side'. Don't know if that's a good idea for animating... any pros wanna comment?
... also, it's a great idea (if your game views will allow it), to work on inside/outside seperately IMHO.
Hope any of this helps :) |
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