|
|
Animated Bird
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Animated Bird // Work in Progress
Post by Dragneye // Oct 28, 2007, 10:55pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Thanx to Steinie's pictorial inspirations (big ;)) I have decided to create my 1st FUN pic (rather than my normal serious/cerebral and/or technically flavored pics). Since I usually think/see in motion, it will be an animation. The main character (bird) won't be anatomically perfect, just supposed to look like a bird, though would like to make this project polished enough to be portfolio material if I can. ANY and ALL comments would be greatly appreciated :).
Scenario (short version): Animation opens with a forward motion view going thru a mountain valley; the bird then comes into view as he swoops thru; then a close up of his head as he lazely looks around, flying; then... (stay tuned :D). This is what I got so far (simple version):
Question 1: Can I attach the skeleton before I have finished editing the body/face, or does that create problems later on with anything?
Question 2: I have 'Glued as Sibling' the eyes (they will move back and forth as the animation progresses) and Boolean attached the head to the body. Do I have to line up the vertices (red circle), or will they be ok as is, as I start to animate? |
Post by Steinie // Oct 29, 2007, 2:23am
|
Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
|
I can't help you with the animation questions, there are other users here that can help you with that.
I'm glad my work got you thinking in other directions. We are all here to inspire each other I hope. I'll be following your work with interest. (It'll be fun!);) |
Post by 3dfrog // Oct 29, 2007, 3:21am
|
3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
|
You should attach the skeleton after the model is complete. If you edit after you will have unassigned vertices. You could assign those vetices after I suppose. I'm not sure what other problems you might run into with skinning before.
It depends how you rig him if the edges are a problem. As long as how you rig him doesn't cause the edges to pass through the body geometry it should be fine. |
Post by Dragneye // Oct 29, 2007, 7:34am
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
@ 3dfrog - good point abt unassigned vertices. Might as well let the program do as much of the calculating as possible.
As for 'edges to pass through the body geometry', the head Will be turning left and right, so maybe I should just align them anyway (tho it seems like the lazy man's way to avoid fixing them, I am trying to speed my workflow as much as possible, doing only 'must' things). As a general concept, does having unaligned vertices cause headaches down the line when animating?
@Steinie - :D ANY input from your 'eye' is worth considering. Like stated before: 1. tho some tend to think of 'fun'/cartoony art as not on the same par as other styles, the respite from our normal 'serious' life while viewing it is a very welcomed affect, and we tend to not even realize it as we are viewing such a piece.
And, 2. if someone says "aww, that ain't real art"... oh yeah? Why don't they try doing a 'fun' piece and have it come out as visually, and pleasurably perfect as you make it? ;)
Keep up the great work bud. It helps me 'lighten up' as I go through MY day. |
Post by 3dfrog // Oct 29, 2007, 8:04am
|
3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
|
I'm looking at the picture. I cant tell if that is the actual edges at the neck or polys in front of polys. If that is the edge you might have problem deforming the neck in animation with polys with so many sides. Best to keep as quads as much as possible. Best way is to make a test file and do a super quick rig and see how it deforms. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 3, 2007, 8:22pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Sorry for the delayed reply 3dfrog. Life is running faster than I can keep up right now.
Yes, they were polys in front of other polys. I had booleaned the two items together. To avoid any animi problems (or at least minimize them) I started creating a new bird using... (can you believe this tool exists?! :DAwesome!) 'Mirror Modeller'. Always wondered what the pretty icon did, but avoided, trying to perfect the main tools first... now its in my "Trusted Toolchest".
I am also going to finish modelling the whole bird before I attach skeleton. It seems logical, 'computer computations' wise.
Here's where any help/critique is needed: 1.efficiency in modelling (what tool/process would be faster than the one I used, to accomplish the same thing) - 2.What will screw up my render, or animation down the line ("you should avoid doing that, and here's why"), and 3. ummm... anything else :D. Each eye sees differently... each mind unique. So please... lay it on me, as I go through this process to completion. Thank you all in advance. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 3, 2007, 9:12pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Since I am a computer art novice, I will try to do as much a 'step by step' dialog here, so maybe others learning curve will be shortened. I tend to not always use the exact word when describing a tool or process used (I'm visual, not technical, if that makes sense), so please correct me if I'm wrong (to help others trying to learn the app), please ask for explanations if you don't understand, and please bear with me if you already are past that part of the learning curve :)
so here we go... I started by sketching a bird outline and then downloading and painting it on a plane as a reference image. I created a primitives box, sized it to the reference image (starting somewhere in the middle of the bird). Then I highlighted the side that would be pointing towards the front of the bird, and using the SWEEP tool a few times, created evenly spaced 'attahced boxes', ending at the edge of the beak. BEFORE exiting the SWEEP tool, I went back and individually resized each sweep till it matched the bird outline; first I worked on vertically, then horizontally (you'll find that creating another plane object with an overlaid image of a 'front view' of your model will aid in seeing the width of your model. You would angle that plane/pic 90 degrees to the first one. (Since I am creating the 3D shape of the bird as I go, I didn't bother with this step)
Then I highlited the other side of the main/start cube, that points towards the back of the bird, and went thru the same process as above.
More to come...
Dang Life keeps callin... I may be making entries in spurts, as time is my only enemy, so please be patient and practice what you know already. As I'm STILL finding out, there is a lot of great tools in tS.
For starters then, Ask what you don't know... and SAVE SAVE SAVE. Things tend to go wrong at the worst possible time when you're creatin sometin' and the 'undo' may not cover it, or the crash will make ya get VERY pissed off! |
Post by butterpaw // Nov 4, 2007, 3:55am
|
butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
|
I can't say much to help since I'm in early learning phase, but I'm enjoying watching this project!
Dragneye, hang in there .. life seems to run way too fast as we get older, but it's getting rather out of hand even for the youngsters.. As for me, it seems every time I blink, some more months go by!! eeek :D
If I think of something useful to say... I will.. but meantime .. just wanted you to know I'm following ^_^ |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 6, 2007, 6:39pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Thank you Butterpaw for the kind words. I'm going to use this project to get serious abt a complete animation. My other animation is on hold cuz I Really wanted to 'create a smile', rather than another 'deep' or pretty pic, so I'm gonna finish this one way or another.
So... I continued (or started all over with yet another copy would be more like it. NOTE: save original simple structure as object [.obj], as you work out the bugs of your model.) by going into point edit mode and moving faces, vertices, and points (in that order). Here's the latest edit |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 6, 2007, 6:54pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
I used the 'Smooth Quad Divide' tool in the center part and head. I am VERY leery abt adding extra faces, so I always try to keep this to a minimum. In this case, instead of trying to get a very smooth surface, I am going for a more organic (in this case 'feathery') look.
HINT: if ya wanna ruin a smooth surface, keep playin' around with the points. THAT will do it ;)
Question: Is there some advantage/disadvantage in using quad divide instead of 'Subdivision Layers'? In reference to overall polycount, or effects/problems when it's time to animate. |
Post by jamesmc // Nov 6, 2007, 7:08pm
|
jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
|
The advantage of having more faces in animation is that at the point where an object needs to bend, rotate or swivel the amount of vertices becomes important.
If you don't have enough vertices, then you get what is called creasing. Creasing occurs when the 3D program tries to figure out the movement, but the mesh "sticks out or in" or creases because there are not enough vertices attached to the bone.
As in any method, it is always better to have a little extra as after you skin attach the object to skeleton or bone - the options in changing the mesh become closer to zero. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 6, 2007, 7:12pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Hmm.. good point James. From now on I will keep that as a 'must do'. Thanx |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 8, 2007, 11:16pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
One of the problems I've had in the past is, when in point edit mode, it was hard to pick the right vertice or face. when an object started having many faces. Using the mirror tool has made it much easier because you are essentially modelling only half the faces of the object.
A lil quirk that hopefully someone can give me insght to; namely, when I save a scene that has an unfinished mirrored object, close tS, then reopen the scene, I have to (hmm, 'have to?) reclick the Mirror Modeller tool. When I do that, there is another copy of the mirrored side created. Now I move that away and delete it, then continue, but is there a point to it creating a new mirror every time? Or am I just doin something wrong, or extra?
Anyway... just a note for all you new modellers out there; I find it better/more easy and efficient, to model half of a symmetrical object (when it'll be having many faces in the end) instead of creating the full object and then trying to make equal adjustments on both sides. When done, THEN I create a mirror, when the modelling is done. Make sure that the side the mirror will be on is truly flat before creating the mirror.
Back to the bird. So I modelled half, 'GLUEd as SISTER' the eye (I don't think I should have done that, cuz now don't know if I can unglue after having attached skeleton. Any input anybody?), created a mirror and finalized by uniting the 2 halves.
Then I proceeded to create a skeleton (NOTE-finalize all your settings BEFORE you attach skeleton) and attached 'SKIN to BONES'.
Another Note: when creating animations, Fully visualize your end product, so you spend time only on what will be seen, or needed to make it work. For example, I spent a lot of time creating a pretty completely detailed bird. I didn't have to since only in the last scene will there be any kind of close up, and that will be only of the head. - Wasted time, but lesson learned.
Here's a quick test I did of the opening scene/clip. The bird will be soaring through a mountain pass. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 8, 2007, 11:17pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Ok, here's the clip |
Post by Steinie // Nov 9, 2007, 2:10am
|
Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
|
Looking good!
You need some tail action for slight direction changes. Also don't forget to move head side to side like he is looking for something. All small movements that communicate "Bird" to the viewer. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 11, 2007, 3:55pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Thanx Stienie.
The tail will move later on when he arcs a turn. The head will show movement in the final scene (close up). Now, back to work I go. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 11, 2007, 11:26pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Ok, I'm goin' batty makin' birds!
Input please... which bird shape is better? I don't care abt real-life accuracy as this animation will be more fun than realistic. No.1 is more complete poly-wise, and no.2A is least, but which one is more pleasing to the eye?
Help please! One and all |
Post by 3dfrog // Nov 12, 2007, 1:55am
|
3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
|
Did you try 2A with a level of sds? Then you could animate him as a low poly object, and when you render add sds to smooth him, ts will figure out how to animate the extra sds geometry. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 12, 2007, 9:39am
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Thanx 3dfrog. Will take up that tip. Since this will be my 1st short, not only am I testing tS's capabilities, but also my puter's. This machine ain't geared for animation, so the idea of finishing it in low poly and THEN creating more detail in the final render is a great help.
I've been trying just to get down the most pleasing to the eye shape before I continue, thus just an outline view. 2A was last night's incarnation, it being the 5th stab at just shape. I am killin alot of time trying to decide which model to use. I know they look almost the same, but can I get a quick input from anyone that reads this today? What is the best eye pleasing shape? |
Post by 3dfrog // Nov 12, 2007, 1:18pm
|
3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
|
Number 1 has the most interesting shape I think. That's the shape I would go with if it were me. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 12, 2007, 5:58pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Ok, here's what I got. Basicly only the eye socket is left for heavy tweaking. Now.... whatta ya think? What do you see as present or future problems for animating this particular shape, or just other comments? |
Post by 3dfrog // Nov 12, 2007, 6:16pm
|
3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
|
Looks like it should do well. You have some poles in there, where more than 4 edges converge to a point. The one I'm looking at is the one with 6 edges converging to one point on the top front of the wing. Since it is in a spot that will deform you may have a problem. Is what we are seeing a screen grab with sds edges showing, or are those edges your geometry of the base mesh. Can we see a wireframe without sds? |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 12, 2007, 11:05pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
'Poles' huh? Hmm, learned a new phrase. As I relooked at the model, it has quite a few poles. Bad?
The last pic was a screengrab - bird had 2 layers of sds. this is the normal wire. |
Post by 3dfrog // Nov 13, 2007, 4:39am
|
3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
|
The mesh looks good besides the poles. Get rid of them and your good to go. Also the edges that wrap around the wing then stop make a big ngon, just continue that edge around the wing. The goal is quads. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 13, 2007, 8:45am
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Thanx. Will work on it |
Post by 3dfrog // Nov 13, 2007, 9:25am
|
3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
|
Here's a way to get started cleaning it up. Delete the red edges, add the green edges. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 16, 2007, 10:12pm
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
3dfrog - I tried to eliminate any 'poles' around the moving parts. Can't seem to get rid of them totally unless I add more polys (have developed a 'fear' of polys. I think that is a generally good idea. Yes, no maybe?).
Here's what I got with one layer of SDS. I am trying to expidite, so will do a test render with skeleton attached, and see what problems I will run into.
I gave myself one week more to finish this... let's see how it goes |
Post by Jack Edwards // Nov 16, 2007, 11:29pm
|
Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
|
You're new mesh looks a lot cleaner Dragneye.
You should never be afraid of moving geometry around, creating and deleting geometry as needed. That is most of the fun of modeling! :D
If you think an area needs more detail, pull out the polydraw tool and draw it in. If you think an edge is in connecting the wrong two verts, draw in the right one and delete the old one you didn't want. ;)
In 7.x vertex manipulation is very easy with the widgets, but in the older versions of TS, you can put the 2D views to great use so that verts can be precisely moved around without fear of screwing it up. If you move it to the wrong place, just move it back. ;) And as long as you keep saved versions periodically it's no problem to go back and try something else.
I think you're in pretty good shape at this point if you're looking for a fairly cartoonish look, but something that may help you a lot with this project would be finding some reference images of various birds. Google Images can help a lot with that. If you can get a nice orthographic type view of the bird you can even load the image in and put it on plane behind your model so that you can line the vertices and shapes up with the photo.
Looking forward to seeing where you go with this animation. :) |
Post by 3dfrog // Nov 17, 2007, 5:58am
|
3dfrog
Total Posts: 1225
|
Looks a lot better. Yeah, I struggle with getting quads too. It can be puzzling, but as Jack says that's kind of fun too. Eventually with a model I have to just reach a point that its good enough, I try a quick test rig and posing on it and if it looks ok I leave it. I suspect your model wil deform well. It looks pretty clean. Good going. |
Post by Dragneye // Nov 17, 2007, 10:24am
|
Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
|
Ya know Jack, I've never used the polydraw tool yet. Hmm
Trying to change gears of a sort and going for a different look/style than the one I am used to is like entering real foreign territory, for me artistically.
As far as birds go, my nickname when I was young was 'Birdman'; I was a real fast runner (I could fly :)), and everybody knew my passion was birds of any type. I have amassed a large bird pic library from my photo-taking so thats not the problem. Problem is, my mind has a hard time making it look other than photoreal (winks @ Steinie. How DO you get that elephant to look so good?). This bird is abt as far as I can go down that road, for now.
The opener is the bird soaring thru a mountain valley (realistic scene). -Then eventually I will be zooming in on a head shot sideview as he mozees along (something between realistic AND lite/fun/cartoony scene; as this will be the main/only close-up, its just the head that needs technical finesse throughout this animation... I think) - Then... well, from then on he will be doing cartoonish movements. THIS is where I will really have a hard time ie:change of style for me.
Can I yap or what huh? :D Lets see if I can get sometin out this weekend to show rather than yap.
Thanx for the encouragement guys. |
|
