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7.5 getting started guide ...?
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
7.5 getting started guide ...? // New Users
Post by laughingcrows // May 10, 2007, 5:03pm
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laughingcrows
Total Posts: 4
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I've been experimenting with 7.5 this afternoon and Wow!
This is a weird program!!!
Anyway, is there a guide for people of earth who have never used truespace before? I've checked out the "quickstart" guide, but it's just a reference chart and assumes you already know how to open everything it's showing you.
And all the videos are the same. These guys know so much about 7.5 that they just say what they're going to do, but not how to do it or where to click.
And is there no searchable, indexed manual? I downloaded the "manual," but it's just a a collection of PDFs.
So is there a "getting to know" guide with some newbie tips? |
Post by roman // May 10, 2007, 6:09pm
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roman
Total Posts: 320
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Laughingcrows,
You could start with chapter1 Intro tutorials, while they do not have latest stuff, they provide introduction. I must admit some sections of the manual are not fully refreshed from TS7.1 but we will update manual on a regular basis, it is not just a collection of PDF's, the only difference is that TOC is at the begining of each chapter. This is done deliberately as we will be adding videos to all chapters, and update chapters individualy online. Our intention is to make documentation almost completely online over time. For TS7.1 we even had live support in truePlace but it was too early for that idea, we may revive it.
There will not be printed version of TS7.5 manual, Max does not have one either. You could purchase for $29 1,000+ page TS7 manual which is fully indexed but of course dated as we changed workspace UI since TS7
TS7.5 is not that different from Cinema4D or Max, I can tell you that Max1.0 UI designers told me that they were influenced by trueSpace1.0 which was already on the market at that time. You may want to look at my Captain's Blog from today for some starting points.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=893
There are some videos here but I guess those are rather fast:
http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tS75/Brochure/videos.asp
There is also an old "Spirit of the interface" video course which I recorded but much of it is still relevant to Model side:
http://www.caligari.com/products/trueSpace/ts5/Courses/Newspirit.asp?Cate=Training&Subcate=Fundamental
As for hour glass, that is a bummer, we just could not put it in time for release:( |
Post by laughingcrows // May 10, 2007, 7:00pm
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laughingcrows
Total Posts: 4
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Thanks Roman,
I've been going through the tutorials, it's getting better but there are a few gaps that leave me hanging. I'm getting through them though.
I've also been looking through the sample files, but I have no idea what some of them are for? And some of them give me an error message about "missing plugins." Is all of this explained in one of the PDFs?
It would be great if we had the sample files that were used in the demo videos. At least we could play along.
Thanks again for the links. |
Post by weaveribm // May 10, 2007, 11:13pm
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Very basic question sorry...
I did not use the Player window in 7.11 but now I want to use the Workspace.
Please: is the Workspace rendering in realtime (and the image is the same as an image rendered to a file) and is there a Render To Screen function button?
The Workspace cannot be rendering complex scenes in realtime can it? Depending on our graphics hardware of course. It's a preview maybe. But then how to render the final image on the Workspace screen?
The Workspace window updates very fast but it looks low-quality (on my low-spec machine here at work) and I think a Render To File image will look different (much higher quality) than the Workspace window rendered
Also: there is no File menu in the Workspace menu. Yes I know I sound like the village idiot but- :)
Should we only Insert scenes now and forget about the File menu - in the Workspace? That works fine but I like File, Settings menus I feel like the pirate marooned without menus :)
I like 7.5 very much already - thanks Roman and Caligari staff!!
Peter |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 11, 2007, 12:18am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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@ weaveribm:
"Render to file" is basically just a screen capture of your scene from the current view to a file. To get nice results you need a nice GFX card. Anti-alias settings found on the settings tab when the view window is active helps make the image look nicer.
For non-real-time rendering you need to use V-Ray or Lightworks.
To access your files, Library Browser is your friend. The icon is found here:
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Right click in the browser to open up the context menu and create a new library or add an existing folder system.
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One that is done. Double click on a library folder to add it to the library panel in the stack view. Files can be drag and dropped to the new folder or the right click context menu can be used for saving/loading/renaming/etc.
Be aware that deleting from the library in 7.5 also deletes the file from the disk. This is a change in functionality from 7.11.
Hope that helps!
-Jack. |
Post by weaveribm // May 11, 2007, 12:49am
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Thanks for that info Jack
Where are layers please in the Workspace window? I'm searching the pdf but finding Player so many times... Display All Toolbars is toggled on but I can't see Layers anywhere. Layers of objects I mean, coloured wireframe groups
Peter |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 11, 2007, 1:06am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I don't think Workspace side has layers.
You can control object visibility via the stack view. By clicking on Show object Attribs, then clicking on Enable Obj Mode in the Object Render Attribute panel:
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The method I've been using lately is: as the model gets more complex, I make the general surface opacity for the window very low (or zero) and up the edge opacity a little bit. Then I up the opacity for the Mesh Editor. That makes it so that I can see the mesh I'm working on clearly but the rest is just wireframe ghosts. ;)
There are a couple of tricks that can help with workflow that Norm showed me. It really helps to use CTRL-drag to tear off the Mesh Editor Settings Panel and dock it so that it stays always visible. I've also done the same with the Widgets panel. (Widgets panel is found in the drop down for the Desktop panel.) You can see my setup here:
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-Jack. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 11, 2007, 1:14am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I also forgot to mention that I use the Link Editor a lot for accurate object selecting and scene management and object grouping.
I haven't figured out how to ungroup objects yet, though. The only method I'm currently aware of is to copy the object to the library. Delete it. Navigate to where you want it, via the Link Editor, then drag it back from the library... :(
Another nice improvement in 7.5 is that when you have a group object you can traverse through the nodes, using the arrow keys. Up to go up the hierarchy (parent), down to go down (child), left and right for sibblings.
-Jack. |
Post by TomG // May 11, 2007, 1:38am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hi all,
To answer some questions I saw in the thread:
1. The real-time render can handle very complex scenes, dependent on hardware. Shadows, transparency, DX9 shaders, glow, bloom, anti-aliasing, supersampling are all available. Raytraced effects naturally are not, raytracing still requires lots of slow calculations.
There is a Render To File for the real-time. It captures exactly what you see on screen. It does no additional rendering. Quality is of course dependent on your hardware - it sounds like your work machine does not have a DX9.0c Pixel Shader 2 compatible card, in which case quality will appear very low as tS will scale back what it does in the real-time view.
Render to file for real-time will also render out animations.
2. There is a render to file from workspace that will render using V-Ray - this is an offline render, so you will see the render window come up and tS will do the usual rendering calculations, which will take the usual time :)
The real-time view provides a very good guide to the end result from your V-Ray render (or Lightworks render if you go over to the Model side to render). Naturally V-Ray and Lightworks let you add things like HDRI, true reflections, transmission, plus for V-Ray caustics, soft reflections, etc. These are not shown in the real-time view.
3. Layers are no supported in workspace at the moment.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by weaveribm // May 11, 2007, 2:48am
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Thanks again Jack good stuff.
No layers and no raytracing in the Workspace window? How odd. How very odd. Seems strange to omit these must-have functions. But I like the Vray render window - and everything always seems weird the first minute you get it yes :)
So the Workspace window is a preview window then. It can't be other than a preview window because preview in our context means 'not completely rendered'. And the good stuff is still in the Model window.
If raytracing is not rendered that's a pity, raytracing is what 3D graphics are all about for me. And it does explain why the Workspace/Player window updates quickly (and why it always looked only medium-quality even on my more powerful machine at home) - previews do render quickly that's the whole idea of a preview. Bit disappointing but press on the 6 window's in there.
So I can't see a fully raytraced render while in the Workspace window unless I Render To File?
Hmm I wonder if the Workspace render to file draws the (fully rendered) image within the Workspace window as I've been seeing in the Model window? Where I can actually see it if you get the picture :)
Oh no there's no Render button in Workspace is there... so no render to file perhaps. Can't check here sorry. I think I need putting out of my misery at this point :)
The new functions in 7.5, I don't know much about them - someone please tell me that they also are available in the 7.5 Model window?
Sorry to be an absolute misery today my main machine's motherboard's dead and Citylink couldn't find our building yesterday (peeks out of window) to deliver the replacement so I may sound pessimistic but it'll all be ok with 7.5 I'm 100% sure of that :)
Peter |
Post by xmanflash // May 11, 2007, 3:05am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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The workspace view is really a preview mode that takes a few shortcuts to render a realistic picture in realtime whilst allowing real time modelling, those shortcuts involving using a DX9 compliant video card to do the hard work.. There are no video cards that I am aware of that can render raytrace quality in realtime (i.e 25/30 fps), we have to resort to rendering animation or stills in non realtime (back to using the computer CPU, instead of the GPU).
Hope that helps - the workspace is a very good preview tool for modeling imho, but I have a very fast GPU :-) |
Post by Délé // May 11, 2007, 3:15am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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So the Workspace window is a preview window then. It can't be other than a preview window because preview in our context means 'not completely rendered'. And the good stuff is still in the Model window.
The Workspace window uses the DirectX9 realtime rendering engine. The same rendering engine used in a lot of video games. The Model side uses DX7 if I recall so is not as good of quality. With good lighting you can actually achieve pretty good realtime rendering in the Workspace. Parva has some really good realtime renders floating around the forums somewhere I think. The offline renderers such as Lightworks and Vray can do more then the realtime rendering is capable of (HDRI, Caustics, GI, etc.) as it renders much slower (not in realtime). So the Workspace is a good preview, but in some cases could actually be good for direct output too.
Oh no there's no Render button in Workspace is there... so no render to file perhaps. Can't check here sorry. I think I need putting out of my misery at this point
Yes, there are render buttons on the Workspace side. You can render the realtime view as you see it on the screen, or you can render with Vray. You can render Workspace animations with Lightworks from the model side too.
The new functions in 7.5, I don't know much about them - someone please tell me that they also are available in the 7.5 Model window?
Some things are only available on the Workspace side and some on the Model side. You have to remember that they are two different architectures that share information through a bridge. The Workspace is the new architecture where all of the newer tools are getting written in. The Model side (old architecture) will eventually be cut away some time in the future. So in general, if you want to use the newer tools you will have to use the Workspace, if you want to use the older tools you will have to use the Model view.
hth |
Post by weaveribm // May 11, 2007, 3:29am
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Thanks both! great explanations you have cheered me up immensely :)
I have a very fast GPU
I have two :)
Using the GPU for CPU functions, I remember Roman saying. DX9/10 raytracing next time then maybe
I see now Délé thanks for explaining, the Workspace was never intended for realtime raytracing rendering - that's fine now I know the er, paradigm :)
Peter |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 11, 2007, 3:51am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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@weaveribm:
You're welcome. Like the others mentioned, Workspace is a DX9 real-time render of your scene. Like Doom3 or Half-Life, etc., this is a real-time render. The really cool thing about that is you can see how your models and lighting are going to look in your game or app without having to export to the game engine. Real time ray tracing isn't supported in hardware yet that I am aware of. To capture this render to a file (minus UI elements) click here:
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To ray trace a more conventional render with V-Ray you click here:
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Be aware that not all shaders work with V-Ray. So if you're planning to render with V-Ray you'll want to make sure you select V-Ray shaders when texturing your scene.
Also lighting in V-Ray is handled very differently than the DX and Lightworks engines, especially if you use GI. If you have a scene already brightly lit and you tell V-Ray to render with GI you will get an over exposed scene. You need to account for the brightness of the GI when setting up your scene and lighting.
The modeling tools are a bit different, but it's mainly about select and move or extrude -- that and adding edges. There's no more point edit tool bar. The point edit tools are on the tool bar in the workspace window. Just right click on the model to enter point edit mode, choose your selection method, select some polys, and off you go. ;)
-Jack. |
Post by TomG // May 11, 2007, 4:31am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hi all,
Just to be clear, there IS raytracing in the "workspace" - you can render to V-Ray, and that has raytracing.
There is NOT raytracing in the realt-time rendering, ie what you see without pressing a special render button. That is because real-time raytracing is still just a dream (but one day, I am sure).
The workspace view is really more than just a preview now. The quality is so good you could easily render to a final animation or image using it. You could render out a "cartoon" like Jimmy Neutron or similar using the real-time renderer. You can even have glass and metal thanks to special DX9 shaders.
So it really is far more than just a preview now.
It depends on what you want to create - the right tool for the right job. Do you want a glass with true transmission, refraction and caustics? Well, that's V-Ray, the real-time view is not the tool for the job. Do you want a happy Saturday morning cartoon? The real-time view and rendered may be just perfect!
Note that the difference in speed is quite phenomenal - in Marcel's house scene I got 240 frames in under 120 seconds, that's more than 2 frames per second, and includes texturing and shadows. For offline, it would take at least 1 or 2 seconds per frame, quite possibly more. That means what takes an hour to render using V-Ray or Lightworks could be rendered in 7 or 8 minutes using the real-time engine.
Now the real-time engine IS also your preview too. But with the quality it can attain, when you start a project, you can stop and ask whether the real-time engine will be all that you need. Architectural walkthrough? The real-time engine could do just nicely! Product visualisation? Again, the real-time engine could be perfect.
Pre-visualisation for a movie you are shooting, to test angles and lighting and how to set up the stage? Real-time engine is perfect!
In all of these cases the real-time engine produces your final result, not just a preview :)
And as noted, there is raytracing in the workspace in exactly the same way there is raytracing in the modeler - that is, you can render to an offline engine with raytracing in it from both. The workspace renders to V-Ray, and the Model side renders to V-Ray or Lightworks.
"
So I can't see a fully raytraced render while in the Workspace window unless I Render To File?
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Same as the Model side - it doesnt show a fully raytraced render unless you hit Render for one of the offline engines.
"
Hmm I wonder if the Workspace render to file draws the (fully rendered) image within the Workspace window as I've been seeing in the Model window? Where I can actually see it if you get the picture
"
You can hit V-Ray Render Scene and get the render with raytracing. Opens in its own window, but the concept is the same as Render Scene in Modeler. Note that you don't need to do anything to "render scene" for the real-time engine - it is constantly rendering the scene :)
You can hit V-Ray Render to File to save a raytraced rendering to disk. You can hit Render To File to save a real-time rendering to disk. The second will be an image identical to what you see in your monitor. The first will be an image identical to the render that pops up in the render window.
Hope this helps clarify! The model side has no advantage to the workspace side (in fact, it is VERY much slower as a preview and bogs down with large enough models; the quality is very much less; you can't capture image or animation from the real-time on modeler to file; rendering to a raytracing engine works the same in both sidesl etc).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by weaveribm // May 11, 2007, 4:49am
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Also lighting in V-Ray is handled very differently than the DX and Lightworks engines, especially if you use GI. If you have a scene already brightly lit and you tell V-Ray to render with GI you will get an over exposed scene. You need to account for the brightness of the GI when setting up your scene and lighting.
Yes it took me a while to discover that the 'first bounce' Vray parameter is in fact the 'brightness' slider Jack, there was a few 'Aagghh why is it so bright!' posts :)
Just to be clear, there IS raytracing in the "workspace" - you can render to V-Ray, and that has raytracing.
No you cannot unless you have Vray obviously Tom. Are you are lawyer by any chance <dives into foxhole> :)
I may render because I have Vray but someone else maybe cannot - 'may' and 'can' English subtleties :)
No worries Tom, got it now and soundiing good - thanks!
Peter |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 11, 2007, 4:55am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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If you're using an environment color instead of an image, then you can adjust the brightness by using a darker environment color.
-Jack. |
Post by TomG // May 11, 2007, 4:55am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Yes, correct on V-Ray - you can, if you have V-Ray :)
Without V-Ray, you will need to swap to the Model side to render using Lightworks for full raytracing stuffs.
Haha, no, not a lawyer! I do appreciate preciseness though, so its good to make sure this has been said properly :)
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by spyfrog // May 11, 2007, 8:54am
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spyfrog
Total Posts: 181
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I've been experimenting with 7.5 this afternoon and Wow!
This is a weird program!!!
Anyway, is there a guide for people of earth who have never used truespace before? I've checked out the "quickstart" guide, but it's just a reference chart and assumes you already know how to open everything it's showing you.
And all the videos are the same. These guys know so much about 7.5 that they just say what they're going to do, but not how to do it or where to click.
And is there no searchable, indexed manual? I downloaded the "manual," but it's just a a collection of PDFs.
So is there a "getting to know" guide with some newbie tips?
The videos, are they supposed to be with the manual? I can't find them in there |
Post by TomG // May 11, 2007, 9:06am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hi all,
Roman posted about this one, so I will repeat :)
The videos are not included with the manual at present. The manual will be updated regularly (probably see the first update next week), and the videos will be added then with the ongoing updates.
There simply wasn't time to prepare all the stuff for the manual, with program changes right up to the deadline meaning that we couldn't make much inroads with the manual until the last minute!
So, they will show up, along with other updates and improvements and additions. This concept of a more fluid manual is one we were going with even without the delay in being able to start assembling the manual anyway.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by weaveribm // May 12, 2007, 12:34am
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weaveribm
Total Posts: 592
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Teasing you Tom yes :) and be in no doubt mate I really appreciate how hard the Caligari team is working to bring us more TrueSpace power all the time and how hard you work to help new users
These guys know so much about 7.5 that they just say what they're going to do, but not how to do it or where to click.
Yes to begin with it's a rocky road laughingcrows but since finding these forums it's a bit like having the manual in the middle of the table down the pub and being surrounded by friends with the same interest who are all happy to help you navigate the er, choppy TrueSpace ocean, marooning theme. Common interest in beer too and the empty barrels for the escape raft recycling :)
Don't be embarrassed to ask even the most basic questions about drag-anchoring problems that might take you weeks otherwise on your own to solve
Peter |
Post by kena // May 12, 2007, 5:51pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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hmmmm... rather like the following in the tutorial
Steps 4 & 5: From the NURBS context edit menu, select Draw Trimming Curve . Draw a simple closed curve on the surface of the cylinder. Select the Extrude from Edge tool.
Steps 6 & 7: Pull the yellow handle to offset the trimmed patch slightly. Exit edit mode by selecting the Object tool to see resulting surface better. Right-click the cylinder to enter the edit mode again. Select the top edge of the extruded trim patch, and pull it away from the adjacent surface.
Extrude from edge tool? How do you get that? when I did the trimming curve, the previous toolbox was replaced by the nurbs curve tool box. It will take me a while to figure it out, but I'm sure I will . :) |
Post by roman // May 13, 2007, 12:01pm
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roman
Total Posts: 320
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hmmmm... rather like the following in the tutorial
Extrude from edge tool? How do you get that? when I did the trimming curve, the previous toolbox was replaced by the nurbs curve tool box. It will take me a while to figure it out, but I'm sure I will . :)This is one of those things we did at the last moment, I was redoing TS7.1 intro manual and I must admit fudging the trim sweep a bit. It was not working for me in 7.5 the same way as it was in TS7.1. There was no time to find why but we will be adding better tutorials all the time. |
Post by kena // May 14, 2007, 6:58pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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Thanks Roman. Hope you get the Userguide straightened out. In the mean time, I'm mostly learning by trying different things. Glad I had 7.11 so at least I have a head start. |
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