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Question about procedural animation
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Question about procedural animation // New Users
Post by jaywat // May 13, 2007, 10:31am
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jaywat
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I'm trying to replicate the scenario in the 'simulation.wmv' where they make Tank Girl get hit by a car, but with one important difference - in the video, the car is a short distance from tank girl and physics are enabled throughout the animation, so actually, whilst you don't really see the effect, she starts crumpling under her own gravity before the car ever gets to her. And that's what I'm trying to eliminate, so that, if the car is some distance away, she isn't a heap on the floor before it ever gets to her!
I kind of think I'm on the right track, and that is, simply starting tank girl's procedural animation at the point where the car would hit her.
Except for one thing - what actually happens when you render the key frames is that she does still crumple, it's just that because the procedural clip for her doesnt actually start til the collision starts, she jumps from standing still to the position she would have been in if she'd crumpled from frame zero.
Sorry if that isn't explained too well...
Basically, I guess what I'm asking is, how do I make a physical character not exhibit those physical properties til a particular frame?
Thanks in advance! |
Post by Leif // May 13, 2007, 11:17am
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Leif
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she starts crumpling under her own gravity
And, I might add, it would be nice if we could set some stiffness to the limbs, spring effects and the like. Maybe it is possible now but if not, please add it next upgrade :) |
Post by trueBlue // May 13, 2007, 11:41am
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trueBlue
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You can apply Phyics material to each and every bone in tS7.5 Skeletons. Well isn't that cool :D |
Post by Leif // May 13, 2007, 12:29pm
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Leif
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You can apply Phyics material to each and every bone in tS7.5 Skeletons
:cool: would be HOT if you could constrain the movements, so the skeleton does not drop like a ragdoll!
As far as answering your question jaywat, others will answer you on that Im sure. |
Post by TomG // May 14, 2007, 2:56am
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TomG
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Hi all,
Simply create the Procedural Clip so that it begins at the point of impact. Then the physics will only be recorded for the character from that point onward.
Be sure to set up the Base Track first, with one keyframe, as recommended in the manual. Then the character will stay locked in one pose until the Procedural Clip starts to play.
You can of course move the procedural clip on the timeline (and shrink it and razor it etc) once it is grabbed.
You can also record regular keyframes in another clip (best on another track) up until the point of impact. You would want to do this first if you want (say) the character walking along - either make a walk cycle in the Animation Editor, or load a BVH, and have that clip from frames 0 to 120 say. At 120 you start your physics simulation and record it into a procedural clip running from 120 to 240. Then you can resume keyframing your hand made animation of the character clambering to their feet.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 5:29am
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jaywat
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Hi all,
Simply create the Procedural Clip so that it begins at the point of impact. Then the physics will only be recorded for the character from that point onward.
Be sure to set up the Base Track first, with one keyframe, as recommended in the manual. Then the character will stay locked in one pose until the Procedural Clip starts to play.
You can of course move the procedural clip on the timeline (and shrink it and razor it etc) once it is grabbed.
You can also record regular keyframes in another clip (best on another track) up until the point of impact. You would want to do this first if you want (say) the character walking along - either make a walk cycle in the Animation Editor, or load a BVH, and have that clip from frames 0 to 120 say. At 120 you start your physics simulation and record it into a procedural clip running from 120 to 240. Then you can resume keyframing your hand made animation of the character clambering to their feet.
But that's what I did and was trying to describe in my OP, Tom. And what you describe is not what happens in my experience.
If I put a physical character and a car on the screen at the same time, and run the car from frame 0, to hit the character at frame 60, starting the characters procedural animation at frame 60, what happens, when I generate the keyframes, is that BOTH start behaving as if their physics starts at frame 1, it's just you don't see it til frame 60 - so the net effect is that at frame 60, the character goes from her standing position to the position she would have been in as she crumpled from frame 1 - ie, a heap on the floor.
It may not be obvious if you don't have a significant gap between the start of the anim and the car hitting the character, but I urge you to try it - if you're getting the correctly rendered frames, I want to know why!
I've followed all the tutorials in chapter 9 , which like most of the rest of the manual goes from detailed to vague and back again, and it does indeed briefly touch upon this being possible, but from my experience and every time I've tried, I get the same result - all physics in the scene start their move at frame 1 regardless of where they are in the timeline - for example the tutorials where the ball hits the girl - try it... she crumples before the ball ever gets there. Once you add keyframes for her 'swat' animation, and try a procedural one in an additive track beyond that, the physics goes seriously out of control and she disappears into the ether.
Also, the manual briefly touches on using locks to keep characters still during animation, but how do you enable and disable a lock at varying places on the timeline?
Also, the manual continually refers to things that are expanded on an elaborated on in the 'chapter on physics' ... I dunno if my manual is different to the rest of you, but I don't HAVE a chapter on physics!
Believe me, I've tried a bunch of ways to get this to work for hours! |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 6:19am
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jaywat
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In case I'm not being clear enough, let me try and illustrate with the two crucial consecutive frames of a simple scene where I throw a ball at tank girl, and want her to react.
Frame 40 is the start of a new procedural clip to capture the characters reaction to the ball.
Frame 1 to 39 of the previous additive track records the same position for the character to keep her from reacting to physics.
But look at the two frames...
http://www.kyoot.net/misc/frame39.jpg
http://www.kyoot.net/misc/frame40.jpg
You see? Just one frame later, she's already on the ground, and thats nothing to do with the ball! |
Post by trueBlue // May 14, 2007, 6:26am
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trueBlue
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I am still learning here as well. Are you setting up the Base Track first, with one keyframe, as recommended in the manual? |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 6:29am
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jaywat
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I am still learning here as well. Are you setting up the Base Track first, with one keyframe, as recommended in the manual?
Yup. Maybe I resized the images a bit small to see the base tracks? Sorry. |
Post by trueBlue // May 14, 2007, 6:37am
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Okay I just tired this and it works. I record Bob at 0 and 60, I then add P. Clip and drag it to 60 then Generate key frames. Play and Bob stays put until frame 60 and he crumbles. Both clips are on same track. |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 6:41am
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jaywat
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Okay I just tired this and it works. I record Bob at 0 and 60, I then add P. Clip and drag it to 60 then Generate key frames. Play and Bob stays put until frame 60 and he crumbles. Both clips are on same track.
Yes. So does mine, if I just put a character on the screen and do as you describe. But now can you add an object to collide with Bob and have him react to it, with him still standing still til the collision?
If you say yes, check very carefully between the frame before the procedural clip and the frame it starts. Does he actually go down smoothly tweened? or does he skip to a later frame of the physical animation?
If you confirm you still have it working, can you possibly post your scene so I can compare and hopefully ascertain why mine is different?
Edit: And don't forget to generate key frames for both parts - because otherwise the ball will not react to the character... I was fooled into thinking it was working when I forgot to re-render the ball's motion. If you don't, it's actually just an illusion that it's working, because the ball is not reacting to the character's physical reaction, if you see what I mean. |
Post by trueBlue // May 14, 2007, 6:49am
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trueBlue
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Better yet you upload your scene and I will see if I can fix it and explain if I can. But It might not be today. |
Post by TomG // May 14, 2007, 7:03am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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You can capture them one at a time if you like, that might make it easier.
Record the car moving forward and capture its motion to keyframes using Generate Keyframes.
Dont worry about the character, do not create any Procedural Clip for it yet.
Now you have the car moving from physics, set up the character with the Procedural Clip in place. Ensure your Current Frame is at the point of collision, eg Frame 60 say. Ensuring your procedural clip starts at frame 60. Generate keyframes for the character.
Now keyframes from 0 to 60 will not be calculated for the character, and the physical sim for them starts at 60, at the collision, where they are still standing upright.
You can do this with one object too, eg a ball. If you set Active Frame and Procedural Clip to start at frame 60, when you generate keyframes, the ball only starts to fall at frame 60.
I believe the main element required is ensuring the current frame is set to where you want the physics to start recording into keyframes. This would be a case of recording car and character separately, since each has different start points for their physics sim and trying to capture both at once will not work (as physics will run needlessly for the character between frames 0 to 60).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 7:04am
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jaywat
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Better yet you upload your scene and I will see if I can fix it and explain if I can. But It might not be today.
Ok. I've included two scenes - the one from the screenshot, where I set up the ball first then the character, and another I did after, where I set up the character first then the ball.
The result is the same in both. |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 7:07am
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jaywat
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You can capture them one at a time if you like, that might make it easier.
Record the car moving forward and capture its motion to keyframes using Generate Keyframes.
Dont worry about the character, do not create any Procedural Clip for it yet.
Now you have the car moving from physics, set up the character with the Procedural Clip in place. Ensure your Current Frame is at the point of collision, eg Frame 60 say. Ensuring your procedural clip starts at frame 60. Generate keyframes for the character.
Now keyframes from 0 to 60 will not be calculated for the character, and the physical sim for them starts at 60, at the collision, where they are still standing upright.
You can do this with one object too, eg a ball. If you set Active Frame and Procedural Clip to start at frame 60, when you generate keyframes, the ball only starts to fall at frame 60.
HTH!
Tom
Tom, as I said, I'm fairly sure thats what I'm doing but it just isnt as you describe - perhaps you can look at the scenes I just uploaded? As you'll see when you scrub through the timeline on either, she reverts to the position she would have been in had she crumpled from frame 1, not the frame where the procedural clip starts.
No matter how I re-generate either one or both of the keyframes, the result is consistent, and wrong.
Just to add, as I replied to trueblue - with ONE item it's fine. It does what you describe with the ball drop. It's when TWO items have to generate physical clips at different points in the timeline. They don't. They both generate as if they'd started from frame 1... just you don't see that, because the procedural anim starts later... with her part way thru the physical motion. |
Post by Délé // May 14, 2007, 7:33am
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Délé
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I played with your scene a little bit and was able to get it to work ok. I deleted both of the procedural clips that you made. Then I re-added the procedural clip for the ball and generated they keyframes for it. Then I re-added the procedural clip for Tankgirl and generated the keyframes for that. She fell down as expected. The timing was a little off so I razored the keyframe clip and procedural clip for Tankgirl a little bit. Looks like the ball isn't quite hitting her either. That can easily be fixed by adding another track to the ball and key framing off of the procedural clip. Then you can tweak it a little bit when it gets close to her to make it hit her.
You might want to try to add physical forces to her bones too. By doing that you can actually have some control over the way she falls. That's how I did the Bob vs. Bob video that Roman posted in his blog. I added some physical forces to the hands and feet to get them to spread out and fall the way I wanted.
hth |
Post by TomG // May 14, 2007, 7:33am
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TomG
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I have no trouble getting this to work - have put together a rough WMV, hopefully it will be small enough file size to post. If not I'll move it onto the live server. Sorry this is all done a bit quick :)
I create a character and a ball, the ball flies forward from physics, impacts the standing character, who only begins to respond to physics (ie crumple) from the point of impact onward. Prior to that they remain rigidly in place.
Steps are
1. Create ball
2. Give it phys sim
3. Capture its phys sim to procedural clip with Generate keyframes
4. Find point of impact
5. Create phys sim for character
6. Set up proc clip starting at frame of impact, and current frame to frame of impact.
7. Generate keyframes for the character
You can have both phys sim clips at once, so long as the one you want is selected, only that one will have KFs generated. If you have neither clip selected, all procedural clips will be re-recorded, which may not be what you want.
Ok so the forum upload didnt work - here is is though:
http://www.caligari.com/tS75_video/user_request.wmv
(5.5Mb)
(one slow upload - there at last, hope it proves useful!)
It's very rough, please forgive that, along with the hasty nature of the posting - focusing on content rather than format here to get the answer out as quick as I can to you :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 7:43am
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jaywat
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I played with your scene a little bit and was able to get it to work ok. I deleted both of the procedural clips that you made. Then I re-added the procedural clip for the ball and generated they keyframes for it. Then I re-added the procedural clip for Tankgirl and generated the keyframes for that. She fell down as expected. The timing was a little off so I razored the keyframe clip and procedural clip for Tankgirl a little bit. Looks like the ball isn't quite hitting her either. That can easily be fixed by adding another track to the ball and key framing off of the procedural clip. Then you can tweak it a little bit when it gets close to her to make it hit her.
You might want to try to add physical forces to her bones too. By doing that you can actually have some control over the way she falls. That's how I did the Bob vs. Bob video that Roman posted in his blog. I added some physical forces to the hands and feet to get them to spread out and fall the way I wanted.
hth
Ok, Your clip worked when I played it outright, but then if I regenerate the key frames it goes back to how my original is. I can get the effect you had IF I generate the ball before the character has any physical attributes - the ball bounces off of her. If I then add the character and set up her procedural clip for the collision, and render ONLY her keyframes, then yes, I can fake - and it IS fake - what you have there.
Because for the ball to react to the character, both sets of keyframes have to be regenerated - the ball only bounces off her because she's solid. When she's ragdolling, the ball would behave entirely differently. And that's when I get my problem with the pre-crumpling character.
Now looking at Tom's step by step... he's faking it too. He never regenerates the keyframes for the ball after the character is added and enabled.
The ball just would not react to her like that when she's not solid.
So am I misunderstanding? Is it actually NOT possible to have a physical reaction to a physical action where each starts at a different timeline position. Because I gotta say, for some of the anims I want to do, I can't even see a way round that. |
Post by TomG // May 14, 2007, 7:49am
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TomG
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You can regenerate the ball after you have captured the character. This multicapture process is covered in the manual too, where I have the ball deflected by the characters hand, then have the characters hand deflected by the ball.
You generate ball KFs to see the impact, and calculate the character from there. Then with the character locked in KFs, you generate the ball and let it impact the character again, and it responds to the keyframed rather than static character.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 8:27am
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jaywat
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You can regenerate the ball after you have captured the character. This multicapture process is covered in the manual too, where I have the ball deflected by the characters hand, then have the characters hand deflected by the ball.
You generate ball KFs to see the impact, and calculate the character from there. Then with the character locked in KFs, you generate the ball and let it impact the character again, and it responds to the keyframed rather than static character.
HTH!
Tom
Then I guess I'm not understanding something very fundamental. Because if I attempt to get the character, who's arm is already keyframed to swipe at the ball, to then react physically to the impact of the ball, I get exactly the same effect - she crumples under her own gravity even before her procedural clip starts, so that by the time the ball hits her, she's already basically missed it. But yes, she plays her keyframe as advertised, right up until she jumps to her half crumpled state at the start of her procedural clip. Which is essentially exactly the same problem that I'm having with all of these clips - that the physics all starts synced at frame 1.
Another simple example. I put a cube in the air, and a sphere directly above that. I drop the sphere onto the cube using physics. It bounces off. Great.
I want the cube to hover there in the air and then drop when the ball hits it. So having set up my base track for the cube, I scrub to the timeline where the impact takes place, add a new procedural clip to an additive track from that point onwards, and generate the keyframes.
Now. At this point, it LOOKS 'right' in that the ball hits the cube and the cube doesn't start moving til that point. Except for one thing. The ball is incorrect now. That's how a ball would react hitting a solid, immoveable cube.
So to try and rectify that, I want to generate the keyframes for the ball again, so that it is truly reacting to the physical properties of the cube.
Now what happens is that the ball gets to where it SHOULD have impacted the cube, but the cube has already travelled down it's physical drop, and suddenly, a frame later, the cube reappears half way down it's journey, thus never impacting with the sphere. Exact same thing - the cube is REALLY starting it's drop at frame 1. But stays still until the start of the procedural clip, whereupon it just moves to where it would be after a frame 1 drop - not a smooth, tweened motion.
Again, I can post the scene if you like but it's exactly the same principle as my original problem. |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 9:35am
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Here's a quick example of the issue, using the cubes and spheres I mentioned in the last post.
The red sphere drops onto an immoveable cube.
The green sphere drops onto a cube that has been made physical, and set up with a procedural clip at the point of impact. But the ball behaves exactly as the red sphere, because it's key frames were never regenerated. It's a fake - the ball and cube were recorded at different times, and one isn't reacting to the other.
The blue sphere drops onto a cube that has been made physical and similarly set up with a procedural clip at the point of impact. BOTH the sphere and cube have been regenerated so they react to each other and the sphere reacts realistically to a moveable physical cube.
Now the cube stays still til the original point of impact... but look at the cube. It jumps to a later point in it's physical animation - exactly where it would have been if the procedural clip had been running since frame 1.
I really don't know how to explain my problem any clearer than that - I can't make a physical reaction to a physical action. It simply does not work.
If someone can tell me, in simple terms, how to achieve what SHOULD happen to the blue sphere and cube, my problem is likely solved for all these scenarios I've described.
If no one can, I think I have a problem... since this is actually why I bought Truespace in the first place! (possibly an expensive mistake on my part based on what I THOUGHT I was seeing in the simulation.wmv animation I'm trying to replicate realistically, as per my very first post. heh) |
Post by mykyl1966 // May 14, 2007, 9:45am
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What I believe he is asking is this.
Put a car in the scene.
Put Tank girl in the scene.
In the LE set the cars velocity towards tank girl.
You say put a track on Tank girl and press record keyframe to lock her in position. (This doesn't actually seems to work for me.)
Press the Start stop button and the physics should start the car moving forward towards Tank girl. She should stay solid in place until the car hits her causing her to be knocked backwards and due to the physics being set the car should also react accordingly.
I have been trying to follow what he has been stating as well as following the instructions in the manual and this thread and my result is the same as Jaywat.
In other words through no direct interaction of the TS user the car and tank girl should be reacting realtime due to the physics engine to each other.
The video simulation.wmv does show a slight drop of tank girl as he has stated.
Perhaps the above is not actually possible and if so can this point be cleared up so we can move on.
Cheers
Mike R |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 9:59am
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jaywat
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What I believe he is asking is this.
Put a car in the scene.
Put Tank girl in the scene.
In the LE set the cars velocity towards tank girl.
You say put a track on Tank girl and press record keyframe to lock her in position. (This doesn't actually seems to work for me.)
Press the Start stop button and the physics should start the car moving forward towards Tank girl. She should stay solid in place until the car hits her causing her to be knocked backwards and due to the physics being set the car should also react accordingly.
I have been trying to follow what he has been stating as well as following the instructions in the manual and this thread and my result is the same as Jaywat.
In other words through no direct interaction of the TS user the car and tank girl should be reacting realtime due to the physics engine to each other.
The video simulation.wmv does show a slight drop of tank girl as he has stated.
Perhaps the above is not actually possible and if so can this point be cleared up so we can move on.
Cheers
Mike R
^^ Yeah, that.
Let's put this another way. I challenge any of you to take the simulation.wmv animation scenario, and move the car 100 yards away from tank girl. NOW try and make that animation behave correctly. You won't, because tank girl will be a crumpled heap on the floor by the time the car gets there, no matter where you start her physics clip.
Sure you can make her stand still til it does. But now look at the frame where she 'starts' her physical animation. She is NOT just reacting to the car after standing still. She is reacting to her own gravity, from frame 1, it's just she's frozen in space to your eye til then. Just like she is in the simulation.wmv. Except you can't see it because the car is so close when she reacts.
Just like that cube in my last post jumps a bunch of frames and the ball never hits it.
Remember, if you don't regenerate the frames for BOTH physical objects, your animation is a fake! Fakes are fine, I guess, but I've been trying for dozens of hours to do 'the real thing'. As mykyl says, if Truespace can't do it, can someone just come out and say so so we can move on with learning how to fake it instead?! |
Post by Délé // May 14, 2007, 10:06am
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Délé
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I tried the cube and sphere idea myself a short while back and I see what you mean. It doesn't take the keyframed movement into consideration and the physics always starts at the same time so you can't make one object fall before the other.
Here's an idea for a possible workaround. Start the cube a little lower and give it some initial upward speed. Then you can get the two objects to collide and give a more dampened effect to the sphere. Then reset the speed for the cube, move it back up a little and rerun the physics for just the cube. You'll have to time it so that the hit is still matches up. It might take some clip blending, razoring, and tweaking. Something like that might work though.
The character physics and blending clips is incredibly powerful for a first implementation. Perhaps future versions could take keyframed movement into account when calculating physics of one object hitting another or allow timing of physics to work a little better. Might be complicated to code though, not sure. Still between physics, keyframing, and clip blending, you should be able to achieve what you want. |
Post by jaywat // May 14, 2007, 10:13am
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jaywat
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I tried the cube and sphere idea myself a short while back and I see what you mean. It doesn't take the keyframed movement into consideration and the physics always starts at the same time so you can't make one object fall before the other.
Thank you. I was beginning to doubt me sanity after 3 pages of trying to explain this and getting nowhere :p
Here's an idea for a possible workaround. Start the cube a little lower and give it some initial upward speed. Then you can get the two objects to collide and give a more dampened effect to the sphere. Then reset the speed for the cube, move it back up a little and rerun the physics for just the cube. You'll have to time it so that the hit is still matched up. It might take some clip blending, razoring, and tweaking. Something like that might work though.
o.O
That's some work around!
The character physics and blending clips is incredibly powerful for a first implementation. Perhaps future versions could take keyframed movement into account when calculating physics of one object hitting another or allow timing of physics to work a little better. Might be complicated to code though, not sure. Still between physics, keyframing, and clip blending, you should be able to achieve what you want.
I agree, it has some neat stuff. Unfortunately, I (evidently wrongly) assumed abilities based on the earlier animations like simulation.wmv of what TS was capable of, and that was my primary reason for getting it. It's a little frustrating to learn it actually can't do that after all.
But at least I have an answer now, even if it is that it doesn't do what I wanted or expected!
Thanks. |
Post by mykyl1966 // May 14, 2007, 10:25am
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mykyl1966
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Surely this is a bug! If the procedural frames are always actually starting from frame 1 then this means that it becomes impossible to state a key frame of lets say 60 as the start point as although (as is the case with tank girl) by the time frame 60 is being played she drops directly to the point she would have been at anyway. She needs to start her actual animation AT frame 60 with no pre calculation.
Cheers
Mike R |
Post by Délé // May 14, 2007, 10:37am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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It is possible that it is a bug. I will post it in the beta forums and see what the devs say. |
Post by TomG // May 14, 2007, 10:42am
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TomG
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Poking around and it seems I can make this work for a character and an object, but not two regular objects.
ie I can freeze a char in position until I need them to start recording phys sim, and I can get them to "push back" against the object, by doing the two step process in the manual.
But I can't do it with something that isn't a character, ie is just a regular object.
Continuing investigations to see how we go!
There are numerous other solutions to these situations of course I believe, including using adhesive forces to keep things in place (weak enough to break with the impact of other objects), using locks for characters, and other possibilities!
However I'd like the one where I just use phys sim to do the work :) So I will keep looking.
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by TomG // May 14, 2007, 11:39am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Hi all,
Here is a method for the falling sphere and cube scenario.
1. Create Phys Attributes for the sphere, and generate it falling. The cube should have no Phys Attributes. The sphere will fall and bounce off the static cube. Generate Keyframes into a procedural clip
2. Move the procedural clip so the sphere collides with the cube at frame 0
(you can see where this is going now, can't you?! )
3. Razor the proc clip for the sphere. Turn the part before frame 0 into non-procedural (uncheck it, so it is regular keyframes). leave the part after 0 as procedural.
3. Give the cube phys attributes and set the proc clip to start at zero. With neither proc clip selected, Generate Keyframes, which will now recalculate KFs for the sphere from its point of impact with teh cube, and KFs for the cube after impact with the sphere.
PS - note that this is a solution. Doesnt mean we won't be looking into other options for how this can be done, as this method is not the most elegant. It does work though :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by TomG // May 14, 2007, 12:01pm
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TomG
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Adding that a confirmed bug has been found here too by the devs, just so everyone knows you aren't going crazy in trying to get this to work with no luck so far :) There is an issue here, thanks for the feedback and info everyone!
The method below will still work btw, though as noted we're not proposing that as a permanent solution of course.
Thanks!
Tom |
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