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My Questions Thread
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My Questions Thread // New Users
Post by Daaark // Jul 27, 2008, 7:02am
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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This will be my thread to ask the questions I have as a new user, and yes, there will be many. I'm not new to 3D by a long shot (I started out back in the mid 90s, where I would make levels for 3D games, and I couldn't even see the level I was working on!), but the interface and design of trueSpace is very alien to me. I hope to overcome the interface and use TS to create objects for the small games I create.
First off, thanks Caligari for the free release.
Is the workspace view good for anything? It seems that the answer to all questions in here have the words 'model in them. Anything you want to do seems to only work in the model mode.
What is your standard workflow in TS? With the bridging an 2 different modes. It seems very cumbersome. People suggest disabling the bridge. Is it possible to just work in one mode, and ignore the other?
I was fooling around last night in model mode and I placed a few of the prefab things down, like that model of the guy in jeans with the earing. I rendered him a few times, and then erased everything. I then imported an obj of a building I created in DeleD, and tried to render, but all i got was the old model that I erased, and my imported building wasn't visible. Strange.
I downloaded and watched some of the videos. There is one for character animation and it's done in something called MotionStudio Pro 3.0 (or something similar). Is this part of TS 7.6, or was that some extra plugin I have to buy? I tried looking in the plugins section of the site, but it just 404s.
Is TS useful for lightmap generation? I've noticed baking functionality, I'm just wondering how far it will go. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 27, 2008, 10:02am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Workspace mode is where the action is. ;)
Model side is the old TS 6.6. So most of the old time users will be more comfortable working there. But as a new user you will want to focus on doing your work in Workspace side as model side will be removed with the next version (hopefully! ;)).
The Workspace Organics Modeling course is a good place to get started. It's basically a polygon modeling course:
http://www.caligari.com/products/trueSpace/ts5/Courses/WorkspaceOrganicModeling1.asp?Cate=Training&Subcate=Fundamental
I find video tutorials are definitely the easiest way to learn. Learning from manuals just doesn't work for me.
In general I don't recommend turning off the bridge until you understand how it works. Also it's generally advisable to work on one side or the other almost exclusively since switching between model and workspace sides converts your scene between the two programs and can cause problems in certain situations where there are incompatibilities.
The only thing that I still use model-side for is for importing/exporting. Use the LUUV plugin to import/export OBJ format btw instead of the built in importer.
Hope that helps!
Edit:
About Motion Studio, it was released as freeware some months back, hopefully someone can post the link for you. The problem with the older courses is that they aren't really relevant any more except for learning concepts and techniques. |
Post by Daaark // Jul 27, 2008, 10:23am
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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Thank you Jack.
So on the animation side of things, Motion Studio is old and un-needed? Are the built in animation functions in TS7.6 better, or up to par? |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 27, 2008, 10:36am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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You're welcome! :)
It's different approaches. There are a lot of things to like about the old Motion Studio approach and the animation concepts covered in the course are very valuable.
The new character animation system is very powerful but there's a lot of things to learn to get the most out of it. One of the biggest advantages of the new system is that it's additive with vertex morphing. So you can layer muscle bulges and skin creases, veins popping out, etc., over the BVH and keyframe animations using the new bones. Something that you can't do with Motion Studio.
The clip blending in the new animation toolset is very powerful because it allows keyframed and BVH motions to be blended to look more natural.
Also since the old (Model-side) tools will be going away in the next version (and will not see any bug fixes) it would make more sense to invest the time into learning the new tools which will continue to be improved with future releases. |
Post by Heidi // Jul 27, 2008, 10:46am
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Heidi
Total Posts: 335
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As Jack said the older tutorial that references Motion Studio refers to the model-side interface.
The rigging and animation tools in the workspace are a lot easier to work with. Chapter 8 of the manual explains them in depth and has a number of videos that demonstrate their use and workflow.
In addition to the manual, there's a tip in the Tech FAQ thread pertaining to the use of Point Edit Selection for weight-painting your mesh. (Link) (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showpost.php?p=73011&postcount=17) |
Post by Daaark // Jul 30, 2008, 8:01pm
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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Is there a way to not have the program load up the last scene on start up? I'd like to just start fresh every time. edit: Is it the the setting in the pref window on the TS6 side?
Also, I have to wonder what was so wrong with native menu bars? Having a nice File, Edit, etc,etc,Render, Help and all that stuff along the top would make life so much easier.
I just loaded in an OBJ figure in the model side, and I turn the bridge on to try and get get it in the workspace view to keep working on him, and it disappears from both views! What's going on here? Okay, nevermind that. I just got my figure to appear by setting the bridge to auto before importing the obj. Does turning it on with a scene in view kill everything in the model side? |
Post by trueBlue // Jul 30, 2008, 8:11pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Is there a way to not have the program load up the last scene on start up?
I always start a new scene before I close. :) |
Post by Daaark // Jul 30, 2008, 9:11pm
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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I opened this program over an hour ago with the intent of importing and rigging a gorilla and making 1 simple little animation before calling it a night. After all this time, all I have done is fight with the program and lose work for mysterious reasons.
I've lost a complete skeleton twice. I either right clicked and it disappeared, hit ctrl-z and lost it, or clicked to create a new bone, and instead had the entire skeleton be replaced by a single joint in place of what was supposed to be a new bone, with undo doing nothing.
Sometimes for strange reasons, I click to make a new bone, and it decides to give itself 2 parents instead of the parent I had previously selected. :confused:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1349/tswtf1ku5.png
I can't select a bone without inserting a joint into it?
Can I mirror some child bones to create the opposite side of limbs?
Is there some kind of scene graph list I can enable to see all the objects in my scene? Just a tree view or a list? Not a bunch of floating nodes. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 30, 2008, 9:18pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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@Daaark,
The animation tools between the two sides are not compatible and editing an object in Model side will destroy your existing bones made in Workspace. So always make sure save your work (on Workspace side!), before going to Model side to import.
The Dynapose tool allows you to select and manipulate the skeleton. The Shape skeleton tool can be used to select and move the joints around to re shape the skeleton.
There is a way to mirror limbs, but I haven't messed with that part of the skeleton tools yet. So hopefully one of the other guys can explain how to do that.
;)
You can open the scene view window from the icon flyout with the other window types.
Hope that helps! |
Post by Daaark // Jul 30, 2008, 9:23pm
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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@Daaark,
The animation tools between the two sides are not compatible and editing an object in Model side will destroy your existing bones made in Workspace. So always make sure save your work (on Workspace side!), before going to Model side to import. This was a model I was creating in the Workspace view. I edited in a picture in my post above, showing the 2 parents problem. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 30, 2008, 9:26pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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As far as I can tell, that's the way Workspace handles skeleton branching. It branches at the bone instead of the joint.
I find it a bit of a pain to use, but when I thought about it, I couldn't come up with a real world cases where more than one limb comes out of the same joint. In a real creature each joint would have it's own socket. |
Post by Daaark // Jul 30, 2008, 9:39pm
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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That doesn't make any sense.
I clicked to create the root joint near the crotch then I click up between the 2 shoulders to create the top of the spine. I make a neck joint and then click in the head to make a joint for the head.
So now I click back on the joint that was between the shoulders so I can branch out and make the arms, and I get some strange, unintended, children in a Y shape giving my shoulder joint 2 or 3 parents.
:confused:
:confused:
:confused:
:confused: |
Post by Tiles // Jul 30, 2008, 10:10pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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You have to select a Bone. You just can branch bones, not joints.
Activate the Shape Skeleton Tool. Then select your bone. Now click at the Build Skeleton Tool again. And finally click where you need your joint. A new bone will be created, starting at the selected bone. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Jul 30, 2008, 10:22pm
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Hi Daark
For what it's worth, I also found the visuals of bones turning into these strange shapes a bit offputting, and til I got my head around it somewhat confusing. (I've used a few other 3D apps and this isn't the "norm" in 3D land)
But what has helped me is the realisation that the visual representation of bones is literally just there as a niceity to represent straight lines between joints. Agree or disagree but thinking like this really helped me.
Workspace rigging is entirely based on joints NOT bones. Bones are just there as a visual ref as far as I can tell. (NB setting bone envelopes is an exception to this way of thinking, but its a minor diversion, I prefer weightpainting anyway)
In my case when I branch say the arms off the main backbone rig the first arm intersection always looks a bit ...well odd. On adding the second arm it looks now like a cross or + at the intersection with the spine. But again if you think in terms of joints not bones after a bit it kind of grows on you.
I do the same as Trueblue and always make a new empty scene before closing TS.
----------------------------
Aha you type as I type..
If you have been building say an arm and now want to say build a leg connected to a hip that is already there,, ensure whilst still in skeleton create mode that you click on the already placed hip joint. That tells TS to start from an already placed joint (the hip) and not continue as a child from your last placed arm joint.
Hope that helps..
My albeit brief experience of TS has been that it does get easier the more I work with Workspace... Personally I ignore the model side as its going to be history real soon, so I figure my time is better spent learning workspace side of things. For me it's kind of trying to tune into the mindset of the somewhat different workflow of TS, from what I have been used to. Right now I am trying to get my head around IK and locks,, and i STILL haven't quite fathomed it, but I reckon it's me thinking differently sort of having pre-conceived ideas from other 3D apps rather than TS not doing what it should.
best wishes
IK Handel |
Post by Igor K Handel // Jul 30, 2008, 10:28pm
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Hey tiles.. yours layout is pretty useful man.
I dragged the scene viewer as a child of the stackview just above the bottom coordinates view... gives a load more real estate AND you still have the Scene viewer info onscreen all the time. Saves having sceneview pushing the stack view further left.
I'd take a screengrab, but I am trying to save film :p
Just a thought
Cheers
IK |
Post by trueBlue // Jul 30, 2008, 10:55pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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You can also just LMB select + drag on a bone for a branch. No need to exit the Character Editor. :)
4View (Quad) layout is very helpful when building Skeletons. |
Post by Tiles // Jul 30, 2008, 11:29pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Ah, i watched the videos, and there is even a way to select a joint to go on with branching. You just need to select the joint before the bone you want to branch. The next click into workspace will then add a bone. And with that method you don't even have to leave the Build Skeleton tool :)
Thanks Igor. I had once set it up like you describe. But personally prefer to have the stack besides the Scene View now. Saves me scrolling :) |
Post by jamesmc // Jul 31, 2008, 12:55am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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The branched bone problem arises when your building the skeleton. If you haven't selected the joint, but selected the bone and start a new branch, you'll get these tiny little bones that branch off into no where sometimes.
In trueSpace, have to grow skeletons from joint to joint or you'll have problems.
A zoom in or multi view is helpful when building a skeleton. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Jul 31, 2008, 1:01am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Heres a quick vid showing Tiles way... coming out of create and then back in (thats the first example in the vid)
And the quicker way. just stay in create tool and click the joint from where the branch should start..... less clicks (second example in the vid)
To refine how I think of bones... They just graphically show connected joints.
hope that helps
IK |
Post by Daaark // Jul 31, 2008, 10:50am
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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Just some clarification, I always selected the joint before branching off. I know how to build a skeleton. It's just that the terms bones and joints get thrown around interchangeably. Especially in programming circles, almost no one uses the term joints very often.
I finally found the scene graph last night. It had a ton of things in there that weren't part of my scene, like settings (why?), and I found some of the disappearing skeletons (why couldn't I see them in my view port). I highlighted one of them and hit 'del' and my whole scene got deleted, instead of just the skeleton I wanted to nuke. What is up with this program? :confused:
Igor, that video is strange. The last joint you created should have been 1 jiont coming out of the last joint you selected, not coming from the middle of the 2. |
Post by Daaark // Aug 1, 2008, 7:02am
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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Opened up TS to try and use it today. The model size panel was missing from the viewports, I found that odd. So as soon as I click anywhere, the program crashes. Start it up again, and the modelside button is missing again, and same thing happens. :confused: |
Post by TomG // Aug 1, 2008, 7:19am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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In the event of anything odd like this, which sounds like a layout issue of some sort, follow the standard procedures for a reset to how tS starts up - starting tS with a CTRL double click to reset how it starts, if that fails, deleting the .ctx and other files. These should return tS to initial state, they're covered in other threads, just zooming by here so thought I'd drop that in.
Should you reset all those items and tS still starts in an odd state, let us know!
Thanks!
Tom |
Post by Daaark // Aug 3, 2008, 4:53pm
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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I think I might have found the cause of my disapearing skeleton problem. It doesn't render in the viewport when I have some of the different shape types selected. Wire thin and Wire Diamond work, Solid default and Solid Diamond render nothing.
I'm using the DX7 renderer. |
Post by Daaark // Aug 6, 2008, 11:42am
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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Where do you find the limb library? I've looked in the sidebar in the library tab and looked in the library browser thing and I don't see the biped things as seen in this video and the manual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QGlziBKG1k |
Post by Heidi // Aug 6, 2008, 11:52am
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Heidi
Total Posts: 335
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If you use the library browser (it's the first icon in the little toolbar on the lower right of your screen) you should find a library called "Biped Limbs" |
Post by Daaark // Aug 6, 2008, 6:14pm
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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If you use the library browser (it's the first icon in the little toolbar on the lower right of your screen) you should find a library called "Biped Limbs"
Wow, how did I miss that the other times? :D
Thanks to everyone who has answered my questions so far. |
Post by Daaark // Aug 8, 2008, 6:55pm
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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Okay, I made my first model in TS. Now I can't understand how to scale and size it and keep it at the same values.
I type in some values in the objects properties on the panel. For instance, 3.0 for the height of the bounding box, and it changes to to 2.992. Why can't it just stay at 3? I need 3.0, 2.992 isn't an acceptable value. |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 9, 2008, 4:58pm
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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Okay, I made my first model in TS. Now I can't understand how to scale and size it and keep it at the same values.
I type in some values in the objects properties on the panel. For instance, 3.0 for the height of the bounding box, and it changes to to 2.992. Why can't it just stay at 3? I need 3.0, 2.992 isn't an acceptable value.
i found that disconcerting as well. curious what the regs will have to say about that. |
Post by Daaark // Aug 11, 2008, 12:35am
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Daaark
Total Posts: 45
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Okay, I made my first model in TS. Now I can't understand how to scale and size it and keep it at the same values.
I type in some values in the objects properties on the panel. For instance, 3.0 for the height of the bounding box, and it changes to to 2.992. Why can't it just stay at 3? I need 3.0, 2.992 isn't an acceptable value.
Click to Enlarge
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/Vampyre_Dark/trueSpace/th_ModelScaleHelp.gif (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/Vampyre_Dark/trueSpace/ModelScaleHelp.gif)
Here is a better example of my problem. I can't get my object to stay at 0,0,0 and there is a rotation I can't get rid of. The bounding box also won't stay at 2,2,3 as I want. |
Post by RichLevy // Aug 11, 2008, 12:53am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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I have been playing with this for about an hour now trying to see what was going on.... I occasionally do get small errors something in the area of .001 or .003. I am not getting errors as off as you describe though, and mine only happened a couple of times during the time I tested.
I am curious to what type of pc you are using? and the chipset?
OS and such...
I'm going out for some coffee... I'll be back.
Rich |
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