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do i need vray?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
do i need vray? // New Users
Post by grymmjack // Aug 1, 2008, 5:03pm
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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i prefer to work in the workspace environment so far, it's just easier for me to understand, but there are no handy rendering shortcuts for rendering selected area, etc, unless using external renderer.
i cant find any render options, like antialias, etc. when doing disk based render, which is the only kind i can do i guess from workspace?
am i correct assuming that workspace uses settings in setting panel and render to disk is just doing a screenshot of that?
it seems that way because i had a infinite light in front of my camera assuming it would not show up in the render, but it did. which doesn't make sense since it's just a light, granted in the workspace it shows up as polygon object i didn't think it would render to disk.
is it possible to hide things and show things from render, yet have them exist on the workspace?
thanks. sorry for all the questions. i have a check from a sidejob that would cover the cost of vray, but i dont want to buy that unless i have to and because i'm such a newbie it would probably be a waste on me anyway.
i think i'm going to have to just really study hard and read up and watch the videos. the manual though for the program is quite confusing, the way it's laid out it just kind of jumps right in and doesn't really explain anything for a newbie level to understand. it references things in the steps (the introduction is all i'm refering to now where you build the space ship) like buttons and icons assuming we know what those are, the screenshots aren't much help because it shows a toolbar with many panels exposed and no focus or pointer or annotation saying "this button is the PE one", etc.
i'm not trying to complain, i will get through it, this community is full of great guys so far, i'm just getting frustrated.
thanks for your help in advance. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 1, 2008, 5:09pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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You can make the lights invisible by adding a render attributes panel to them and then setting checking the "invisible" check box on the advanced aspect of the panel.
Let me know if you need a video. ;)
Also I'm working on a plugin to integrate Kerkythea with Workspace, and I'm sure others are working on plugins to other render engines. So you don't need to get VRay. But I do feel that it's worth it as it is a very powerful render engine and $300 is not a bad price. |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 1, 2008, 5:16pm
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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hi jack, thanks for the reply.
a video would be very helpful. i dont know what you mean by render attributes panel.
thanks |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 1, 2008, 5:18pm
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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is vray simple to install/setup? is it a seamless integration with truespace? is it something you'd recommend to a beginner that had the spare cash burning a hole in his pocket? is vray also compatible with quad core cpus? |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 1, 2008, 5:25pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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VRay is great for beginners because it's very easy to create stunning results with very basic light setups. You can make even a bunch of cubes look great with HDRI, GI, and a spotlight. ;) It'll also help you to learn about lighting and materials.
It's fully integrated and has an easier to use Material Editor than the one for DX9 materials.
The installation is a little bit more tricky since it became a plug-in but the readme walks you through it, and there are plenty of posts about it here in the forums.
Basically you install it to your TS directory using the installer. Then open the Package Manager in TS. Right click and select Install New. Browse to your TS directory and select the VRay.tsx file, click open. Then right click on VRay in the Package Manager and choose, "Load". After that you can render by clicking on the render button in Workspace. |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 1, 2008, 6:57pm
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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ok jack, i took the plunge. thanks for your encouragement. as far as i'm concerned for the gift of truespace a $299 renderer is a fair way to help support the program. |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 1, 2008, 7:14pm
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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ok, wow. i'm humbled. this is definitely what i was looking for. thanks jack for your sage advice. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 1, 2008, 7:42pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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:D
Definitely post if you need any help with lighting and materials. ;)
Setting up DOF is a pain, so you'll want to check out this VRay DOF widget from Stan:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=4990
I personally like the Glossy shader for pretty much everything with reflectance. The Matte shader is good for highly diffuse rough surfaces. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 1, 2008, 8:00pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Some other quick tips:
1.) Don't use white or overly saturated colors. Mutted colors are more realistic and give the engine headroom to add highlights without blowing out the image. Same goes for lights, Infinite lights are infinitely bright with no fall off, so you only need one (the sun) and even then it can help to dial it back a bit.
2.) Crank up the soft shadow settings, they don't cost much in render time. Basically you want to get the samples high enough that you don't have to raise the blur size as much. Usually a blur size of .9 and samples around 200 produce very nice results.
3.) Tone back the HDRI settings. The defaults don't make much sense. Set saturation and intensity back to 1.0. (And adjust them further down from there.) Samples needs to be way higher but you will see a significant increase in render time. I've used values as high as in the 200 range to get smoother sampling depending on the HDRI image used.
4.) Use a min sampling rate (Min rate) of -5 or so to make the bucket sizes bigger. And for preview rendering you can also lower the max sampling rate (Max Rate) to -2. A max rate value of 0 is a one to one GI sampling per pixel in geometry dense areas. So anything over zero is sampling at a rate higher than one per pixel.
5.) Hemi Samples are more important than interpsamples. The Hemi samples increase the accuracy of the GI while the InterpSamples blur the sampling to get a smoother result. So for faster rendering you can use a low Hemi Sample rate and turn up the Interp samples, for more accurate results you turn up the Hemi samples and lower the Interpsamples as low as you can and still get good quality. A good value range is Hemi sample at 50 and Interpsamples at 20.
6.) If you have a lot of refraction going on you may need to increase the Quasi Monte Carlo sample depth (QMC depth) to a value like 8 and the Max Depth on the Photo Render panel (currently set at 10 which should be fine). |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 1, 2008, 8:03pm
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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thanks for the tip on the DOF widget, but i dont see any attachment on the thread. am i blind? :) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 1, 2008, 8:06pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Hmm... nope I don't see it either, guess we'll have to ask Stan about that one. LOL ;)
Could be that he's updating it for 7.6. |
Post by kena // Aug 1, 2008, 8:59pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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If you are going to play with V-ray, check out my Larking about thread.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3097
Jack gives some very good advice there and I bring it up whenever I use V-ray for something I don't do normally. In the speed model challenge for a "boat" , I used his advice to make my metal texture. |
Post by percy // Aug 1, 2008, 9:22pm
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percy
Total Posts: 1
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You can make the lights invisible by adding a render attributes panel to them and then setting checking the "invisible" check box on the advanced aspect of the panel.
Let me know if you need a video. ;)
Also I'm working on a plugin to integrate Kerkythea with Workspace, and I'm sure others are working on plugins to other render engines. So you don't need to get VRay. But I do feel that it's worth it as it is a very powerful render engine and $300 is not a bad price.
Hi reading the above I have used truespace for several years for small projects, do I understand that by downloading the new version,( this i have done) i no longer have Vray but can get it free as a previous owner, if so how do i do this? regards Percy |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 1, 2008, 9:33pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Hi Percy, the VRay update (1.53) will be in your repeat downloads section. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 1, 2008, 10:34pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Here's the video showing how to make the light widgets invisible. Not that when selected the widget still shows, so you need to select something else for them to be invisible. You'll notice that I also check the box to make them non-shadow casting as well. |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 2, 2008, 3:15am
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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Some other quick tips:
1.) Don't use white or overly saturated colors. Mutted colors are more realistic and give the engine headroom to add highlights without blowing out the image. Same goes for lights, Infinite lights are infinitely bright with no fall off, so you only need one (the sun) and even then it can help to dial it back a bit.
2.) Crank up the soft shadow settings, they don't cost much in render time. Basically you want to get the samples high enough that you don't have to raise the blur size as much. Usually a blur size of .9 and samples around 200 produce very nice results.
3.) Tone back the HDRI settings. The defaults don't make much sense. Set saturation and intensity back to 1.0. (And adjust them further down from there.) Samples needs to be way higher but you will see a significant increase in render time. I've used values as high as in the 200 range to get smoother sampling depending on the HDRI image used.
4.) Use a min sampling rate (Min rate) of -5 or so to make the bucket sizes bigger. And for preview rendering you can also lower the max sampling rate (Max Rate) to -2. A max rate value of 0 is a one to one GI sampling per pixel in geometry dense areas. So anything over zero is sampling at a rate higher than one per pixel.
5.) Hemi Samples are more important than interpsamples. The Hemi samples increase the accuracy of the GI while the InterpSamples blur the sampling to get a smoother result. So for faster rendering you can use a low Hemi Sample rate and turn up the Interp samples, for more accurate results you turn up the Hemi samples and lower the Interpsamples as low as you can and still get good quality. A good value range is Hemi sample at 50 and Interpsamples at 20.
6.) If you have a lot of refraction going on you may need to increase the Quasi Monte Carlo sample depth (QMC depth) to a value like 8 and the Max Depth on the Photo Render panel (currently set at 10 which should be fine).
Awesome. Thanks for this advice.
I was playing around last night testing different scene rendering out and comparing them, and some things look worse in VRay. For example the human head in the library looked like an albino person when I used VRay. No matter what I tried I could not get the skin tone to show up. It was almost like VRay didn't recognize that there was a texture on the skin.
Maybe it has something to do with these settings you mentioned. |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 2, 2008, 3:17am
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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If you are going to play with V-ray, check out my Larking about thread.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3097
Jack gives some very good advice there and I bring it up whenever I use V-ray for something I don't do normally. In the speed model challenge for a "boat" , I used his advice to make my metal texture.
Hi Kena, thanks. I definitely appreciate this. So much to learn. :) |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 2, 2008, 3:18am
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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Here's the video showing how to make the light widgets invisible. Not that when selected the widget still shows, so you need to select something else for them to be invisible. You'll notice that I also check the box to make them non-shadow casting as well.
thanks jack for your efforts!
This kind of hands on attention is quite generous of you. I really appreciate it. |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 2, 2008, 3:21am
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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Here's the video showing how to make the light widgets invisible. Not that when selected the widget still shows, so you need to select something else for them to be invisible. You'll notice that I also check the box to make them non-shadow casting as well.
whoa. there is a whole different set of windows i didn't even know about. ok no more questions until i do my homework. I'm embarassed. |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 2, 2008, 5:18am
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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LOL. I didn't realize Jack Edwards was the author of the training material I have neglected to watch this far.
OK, don't throw me into the river :)
Thanks Jack, I'm going to shut up for a month or two now, and just watch the videos.
I will come back with something rendered and post it here so everyone can see that a newbie is learning :)
I hope to make a little monkey character and some primitive tactile controls for interface design use in skinning audio plugins.
:) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 2, 2008, 9:16am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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:D
Glad to help!
BTW, to learn VRay I recommend building your own small scenes. Use basic primitives to make interesting shapes then experiment with lighting and materials.
The difference you are seeing between VRay and the realtime view is that they use different materials entirely. When building a scene for VRay, you will want to use the VRay version of the material editor to apply VRay materials and shaders onto your models. |
Post by Steinie // Aug 2, 2008, 9:27am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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LOL. I didn't realize Jack Edwards was the author of the training material I have neglected to watch this far.
:)
It's worse then that, he is also an all around swell guy...:rolleyes: |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 2, 2008, 9:39am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Yup I agree with Steinie.... :D |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 2, 2008, 6:06pm
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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It's worse then that, he is also an all around swell guy...:rolleyes:
ok, i almost finished watching hte workspace organics modeling tutorial. i've learned more watching this video than i thought i would. the video title is somewhat misleading - i mean yes you are doing organic modeling in the workspace, but you are also going through very basic and detailed descriptions of core tools (FOR THIS I THANK YOU KINDLY!).
watching you work is very inspiring and makes it seem much less scary :) how long did it take you to get so second-nature with this program jack?
and i concur, a swell guy indeed. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Aug 2, 2008, 7:36pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Thanks Grymmjack! :cool:
I took me about 2 years. With the financial backing of my parents :o, I basically quit my day job and went full time into learning 3D and trueSpace. I couldn't have done it without these forums and the great bunch of guys (and gals!) here to help keep me focused. I still have lots to learn and improve on though. ;) |
Post by grymmjack // Aug 3, 2008, 6:24am
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grymmjack
Total Posts: 87
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Thanks Grymmjack! :cool:
I took me about 2 years. With the financial backing of my parents :o, I basically quit my day job and went full time into learning 3D and trueSpace. I couldn't have done it without these forums and the great bunch of guys (and gals!) here to help keep me focused. I still have lots to learn and improve on though. ;)
ok, so for me i'll guess it will take about 4 years. (we plan to have a child soon - and i'm going to strive to be a great dad!) - this amount of time is exactly worth the investment for me. it took about that long to learn 2D.
have you made / considred other tutorials now that this transition has happened with truspace? like for instance you could probably continue to sell your video tutorials if not through your own company / website, through one like lynda.com.
if you EVER need help with anything relating to web site, ecommerce, and setting up a video tutorial shop, please do not hesitate to contact me. i could help you set one of these up as a repayment for your free videos.
sorry to go off topic. i just know how valuable a few seconds in time are when you are struggling with a concept, and i can only imagine that users with less ambition and lower confidence in their abilities to learn new things could benefit to the exponential degree if a tutorial series was released that was a consumate solution to getting up to a certain level of expertise with truspace. the existing stuff is very close, but with a little bit more organization and leverage applied to the content that is available - for instance i almost didn't watch this organic video FIRST because i was thinking "this topic is way too advanced for me i should learn something else".
but then when i looked at what i had organized and downloaded (i organized the entire collection into directory structure that makes sense, not just random same filenames, etc. - and i'm not complaining about this either it wasn't intended to be used in a batch download fashion like i have done it was meant to do per instance asset management) -- anyway when i looked i couldn't see anything that resembled a prefered linear chronology/path to get up to speed with TS quickly and most effectively.
i'm now going to stop making assumptions and being so analytical because it seems even if it's not obvious in the titles/descriptions, the site offering the training here is already organized in that manner - for instance the next on the list according to the site is Elements of Game Design. then TruSpace and Vue - dunno what Vue is but i'm guessing it's handy to know it.
I'm sure this idea isn't perfect, but can always skip around. It seems like there is a hole in the educational material though that is organization. I felt as a new user that no hand is there to hold on this big journey - now of course i'm wrong, the community of guys here is awesome and very kind and patient (yourself included). but the first impression is sometimes all you have to get a new user going you know?
anyway great work on your end of the tutorials. i'm on chapter 4.5 - though i admit i haven't been following with the program, i will do so after i watch them all the way through without following along (i'm sort of a control freak i guess? lol) adn then have my own evil fish modelmuhahah.
:D |
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