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New 7.6 Coming Soon?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
New 7.6 Coming Soon? // Work in Progress
Post by RAYMAN // Apr 6, 2008, 8:02am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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Only when I stamp my feet a lot and ask for money...;):D:D
Well then we´ve nailed it........
To get good tools you have to invite people to
develop them together with the team !
Here the coders..... there the users.
The moment you start to "DESIGN" tools far away from your user base
you wont get good results.
Michael Gibson ( Moi3d) designs the tools while he is working together with
us on projects that we have problems with.
Its only in a workflow that you get the ideas from .....;)
Peter |
Post by Tiles // Apr 6, 2008, 8:05am
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Tiles
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and presumed you meant bugs that cause crashes. ...
Both. But i mainly mean the bugs that stops me to use a feature. Bugs must not lead to a crash. They can simply lead to the fact that you can't use a tool.
I have had less crashes than bugs. But i had even more than one of them, as you can see in some dump reports in the bug section. So i can't really say TS 7.51 is rock solid crasheswise ;)
Ah, forgot, a bug is when a feature refuses to work as it should. A crash is caused by a bug. But leads to the fact that parts or even the whole software quit working with error messages. Not every bug leads to a crash though :) |
Post by Steinie // Apr 6, 2008, 10:09am
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NDA prevents discussing methods of testing? WOW they don't want anyone to know anything about their methods. The record of previous testing for trueSpace shows weaknesses in their methods.
I test software (not as complex but much larger in code) that changes every two weeks and needs to be sent to 600 Stores. A serious bug could effect Store Sales big time. The method of testing is very important to insure this won't happen.
TrueSpace is really quite harmless, doesn't effect Store Sales, very few jobs depend on it. Historically we live with it until the next version. The Image of Caligari and TrueSpace as a professional package would be questioned but life continues.
I really wonder if "Test Plans" are even considered. Repeated for each version. Smoke Testing is performed. Regression Testing is performed. How about Acceptance testing or Black Box testing? These are the Standards in the Business environment.
It appears that currently the only testing done is "ad hoc testing" and that would explain the bugs left over.
The good news (of course NOT supplied from Caligari) is that 7.6 is getting more attention and effort placed on Bugs.
Well see...
They really should consider an "Early Beta" Release to existing users to test right before launch. Have it setup like a Demo so that a purchase is necessary when expired.
This would bring out all those odd bugs not found during testing. |
Post by splinters // Apr 6, 2008, 10:23am
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Steinie, that was a suggestion by me. I don't know for sure but the question was about the testing process. I could imagine that describing a process might just let slip something more detailed.
I do agree with the public Beta though, although I imagine they see the release to Proteam as just that...:o |
Post by RAYMAN // Apr 6, 2008, 10:32am
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RAYMAN
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Now we are talking !:D
Peter |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 6, 2008, 12:43pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I agree, I think a public (user) beta would be a great idea. Then people wont feel snookered if a tool doesn't work the way they were expecting either. It would also relieve the stress of having to "get it done" and out to the users. The users would have access to it already and the developers could take the extra time to make sure that everything works as intended. It would also be a good way to address workflow concerns without having to wait for a service pack or future upgrade. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 6, 2008, 6:25pm
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W!ZARD
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These seem like very valid suggestions to me but I am wondering about the fairly unique way that the new architecture works. I know next to nothing about programming but I understand tS7 to have a very open architecture - users can wander into the working parts and build their own bits and pieces as we see in the Garage.
I'm wondering if such open architecture makes the software more easily ripped off?
I wonder if releasing a public beta version as has been suggested would open the company up to piracy and warez issues that could - again I'm no expert here - potentially threaten the economic viability of the company.
As has been pointed out so well by Emma, this is a small company compared to Newtek and the other acknowledged big boys - Maya etc.
I see a big picture like this: small company, limited resources (at least until recently;)). Enough savvy to make and market a series of innovative and independent software packages for the last 20 years (a major achievement in itself). Seems to me that if they are able to achieve all this they must have some idea about what they are doing and sound upper level reasons for doing it that way (particularly as that way runs counter to the wishes of much of the customer base).
The ability for a small company to last 20 years is remarkable enough - around 90% of new companies fold after a couple of years - so they have a strategy that, to them anyway, appears to work. If the customer base wishes to change that they are going to have to present a very compelling reason and a economically sound alternative.
We as end users only need to judge if the product suits our individual needs - they as the company have to try to meet the many different needs, not only of a varied user base but also the not-so-simple economic needs involved in running a small company. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 6, 2008, 6:29pm
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W!ZARD
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Every company working in software development will have to use something like this and I have no doubt that this will be different with Caligari. Software development always will produce errors, there is no way to program error free.
Anyway, complaining is OK and necessary, but be fair and don't expect a company like Caligari to have the man power of one of the global big players. And to be serious, those big ones also don't always work that perfect.
Good call Emma - this is essentially what I've been trying to say.
As a side note I also use LightWave 9.2 from NewTek and over the last month I've had more unexpected crashes from LightWave than I have from tS - although to be fair many of them are due to user error as I'm still fairly new to LightWave. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 6, 2008, 7:43pm
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From my point of view even "user error" shouldn't crash an app. It should be robust enough to say something like "invalid input" or "operation failed because ....."
I think Windows programs in general (particularly in the Vista age) are expected to behave themselves at all times. No weirdness, no screwing up your system, no crashing. Standards are just higher these days, and companies need to keep up with that if they want to compete.
Likely that was half the reason for the core re-write and as has been noted, the new Workspace is very stable. ;) |
Post by Tiles // Apr 6, 2008, 9:47pm
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Tiles
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A public Beta is most definitely the best way. I vote for it :)
and as has been noted, the new Workspace is very stable.
As told, i have sent more than one dump report. That's why i cannot follow the very stable statement. But it was indeed worse in the past :)
I never had a TS Version with this masses of bugs though ...
These seem like very valid suggestions to me but I am wondering about the fairly unique way that the new architecture works. I know next to nothing about programming but I understand tS7 to have a very open architecture - users can wander into the working parts and build their own bits and pieces as we see in the Garage.
I'm wondering if such open architecture makes the software more easily ripped off?
What's to say against new plugins? ;)
How easy the current version is crackable, well, this probably can just be answered by Caligari. There are enough valid ways to restrict a software. I personally know of no cracked 7.5 version around. So i think either it is secure enough. Or the demand isn't strong enough to attract crackers to crack this baby.
What is impossible is to make a software secure and uncrackable for all eternities. As long as there is software there will be cracks for it. Just a matter of time. And a matter of demand. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 6, 2008, 10:32pm
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Jack Edwards
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BTW, some more of those new features I was mentioning some posts back just got announced. I wasn't just feeding you guys bull when I said the guys at Caligari were VERY busy. ;) Check the Captain's blog.... :D |
Post by transient // Apr 6, 2008, 10:38pm
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I just saw this (http://innovation.freedomblogging.com/2008/04/04/11-innovation-lessons-from-creators-of-world-of-warcraft/) on slashdot. Extremely apt, I think. Number 9 is my personal favorite. |
Post by Tiles // Apr 6, 2008, 11:07pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Question is how much bugs this time hinders us to use the new tools ... |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 6, 2008, 11:12pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Question is how much bugs this time hinders us to use the new tools ...
Lol - For the question is what cool new things can I do with the new tools? |
Post by Steinie // Apr 7, 2008, 1:44am
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I wish I could forecast Horse Racing or the Stock Market as well but my prediction about the release of TS7.6 is holding true.
TrueSpace 7.6 in the "Very Near" future?
1) Start watching for Beta Artist examples to start showing up. (There are three examples so far)
2) TomG will answer questions directly. (He must be on Vacation:p)
3) Captain's Blog will be used again every 3 weeks (TWO entries so far!)
We now have Boolean and Cloth! How about a simple "Bend" tool?
6) When my funds are at their absolute lowest I'll receive the "Caligari Early Announcement for only $$$$$$$$"
(My funds are now at their lowest so start announcing Caligari :D)
I think their shooting for Early Next Month release date. (My prediction based on latest activity) |
Post by KeithC // Apr 7, 2008, 2:58am
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As a side note I also use LightWave 9.2 from NewTek and over the last month I've had more unexpected crashes from LightWave than I have from tS - although to be fair many of them are due to user error as I'm still fairly new to LightWave.
I use both and I've had the exact opposite experience. I've done things in LW that would have definately crashed TS/GS. I use the same computer for both programs. The thing is; everyone's computer has different little things going on, so one person's computer may crash...while another's remains stable. But as a whole; I've always had less problems with LW. However, I will say that most every time I've opened up TS 7.6 I haven't really had a problem.
As far as the beta test models being discussed; counting Caligari as a small company doesn't seem to be valid anymore. A more open beta may yield better results; however, NewTek is the only one I know of that has an open beta policy...so we can't call it a surefire method of getting things done.
-Keith |
Post by RAYMAN // Apr 7, 2008, 6:59am
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RAYMAN
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NewTek is the only one I know of that has an open beta policy...so we can't call it a surefire method of getting things done.
Keith C VueInfinite is another good example of open beta ... Moi3d
is another one ...............................
Peter |
Post by frootee // Apr 7, 2008, 8:24am
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Hm... a few interesting points to respond to.
W!zard: opening up the code via scripting / LE and nodes does not compromise the software. None of the interfaces provide a way 'into' the proprietary areas. Not that I've tried. No Really! :cool: :cool:
Regarding test procedures:
1. Business application workflows are typically more linear than a creative app like truespace. So implementing a stringent test procedure, in which every user must follow the very same step by step test procedure, would not be very effective IMO. If there is a bug, then all testers would report that single bug, and describe a singular workflow approach. In other words, they would all follow the same steps, and generate the same error, via the same workflow. This is not effective timewise. Unless of course, the regression test could be written to allow for multiple workflows.
2. S.Q.A. folks Get Paid to perform regression tests, smoke tests, etc. i.e. that's their job, so even though it can be boring as hell ( I do it too as part of my job), it must be done nonetheless. Expecting a beta tester to spend their free time following a step by step documented test procedure will most likely not motivate them to test. In addition, reread #1.
3. Each user has, in their workflow, unique steps. Implementing new and existing tools in a multitude of workflows can be an effective method of identifying bugs. I may not find a problem with Tool B, but someone else will; they describe their workflow; I replicate their workflow, and confirm their issue with the tool, using their workflow. I confirm the bug, and describe my workflow, compared to theirs. In doing so, we can help the developer(s) filter out the offending chunk(s) of code.
Regarding a public beta, well, I don't work for Caligari but, as a user, I'd be for it. Perhaps splinters is correct in his assumption about the proteam release.
Anyway, FWIW, that's my 2 cents.
Have a good one everyone. I hope everyone enjoys using 7.6 as much as the beta testers enjoy testing it and reporting bugs, and getting those bugs resolved.
Froo |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 7, 2008, 8:58am
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jamesmc
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(curmudgeon gripe)
One of my pet peeves about tS beta testers and this is my personal observation, is that they gain months and months of knowledge and experience during testing and don't share it. (after testing is over)
So we normal users are out in 'lala' land trying to figure things out and if we are lucky someone might pop up with a solution on the forum. Usually there are those that languished in an environment of multiple beta users and some programmers available remain silent on the forum on a lot of issues.
Should be a requirement that each beta tester make at least one tutorial or collaborate in making a tutorial at the end of testing when it is in production.
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot that do above and beyond on the forums. There are also some that remain silent and just be on their merry way.
(/curmudgeon gripe) |
Post by Steinie // Apr 7, 2008, 9:03am
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Well I do know one thing for sure Frootee, there are some awesome Beta testers working this version. So I feel confident this will be a good one. Thanks to all the Testers for donating their time.
James, they donated enough of their time. Anything else is just a bonus. They don't owe us squat. |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 7, 2008, 9:13am
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Well I do know one thing for sure Frootee, there are some awesome Beta testers working this version. So I feel confident this will be a good one. Thanks to all the Testers for donating their time.
James, they donated enough of their time. Anything else is just a bonus. They don't owe us squat.
Oh, perhaps your right Steinie.
People gaining invaluable insider information to a program don't owe anyone anything.
My bad, was thinking about the whole concept of collaboration - silly me. |
Post by frootee // Apr 7, 2008, 9:36am
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Well we're doing our best Steinie. I've had a personal setback (father passed away) and that threw me off much more than I expected; but I am getting back on track now. This is my first run at beta testing; before I joined, I was concerned myself, regarding what was expected of a beta tester. I thought I could not do it, because I expected hours of endless repeat testing, similar to the test methods you've described; which is why I thought I could not do it, due to time commitments. In any event, I like finding problems with items, old and new, making the product better.
Regarding the beta testers sharing their knowledge, we need to organize a 'braindump' party in shared space or something. Video tutorials would be good too. Actually, maybe using the Tue. night slot for a discussion of various items would be good. Notice how the Tue. meetings are not well attended currently? Probably not, if you don't go... :D (that's a DUH question isn't it?) Go ahead, go ahead say it... DUH FROO! DUH! :rolleyes:
Anyways. Right now there's not a lot for us to talk about, because it's all NDA right now (there's another one! All together now... DUH FROO! DUH!) ... but when 7.6 is released, Look Out! If you wanna learn, come to Tuesday nights, and also the TNL! That's what the shared spaces are for. Collaboration. Actually, it doesn't have to be either of those times; it will depend on when a particular person is available really. I've been thinking about this as well James; it would be good when 7.6 is released, to have some of the beta testers who are interested in doing so, to present topics in their 'area of test', to show everyone around.
Well, gotta go for now.
Later!
Froo |
Post by hemulin // Apr 7, 2008, 11:03am
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Should be a requirement that each beta tester make at least one tutorial or collaborate in making a tutorial at the end of testing when it is in production.
We do have day jobs you know :mad:; we are not employed by Caligari. Yes we may got a free copy of the software at the end but all in all we do it because we want to help make trueSpace better and I can guarantee you most beta testers put in a lot more hours than it would take to cover the costs of buying trueSpace.
One of my pet peeves about tS beta testers and this is my personal observation, is that they gain months and months of knowledge and experience during testing and don't share it.
What sort of information do you mean. If you mean we have months and months to get to grips with new tools through testing them then that is true and I am sure many beta testers pass on that information to help others (when we are allowed to).
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot that do above and beyond on the forums. There are also some that remain silent and just be on their merry way.
Yes that is true, some of us do not have the time to create a tutorial or come up with solutions to problems. You also have to remember that all beta testers are different and have different testing priorities so not all beta testers will know everything about a particular tool. I certainly don't. My area of 'expertise' happens to be GUI orientated so many of the problems posted here will be outside of my area of 'expertise'. While that doesn't mean I don't know anything about any of the other tools it does mean that I won't be able to answer everything about them.
I am probably one of the least active beta testers due to time restraints but I think you have the wrong opinion of how hard most beta testers work James. |
Post by splinters // Apr 7, 2008, 11:26am
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(curmudgeon gripe)
One of my pet peeves about tS beta testers and this is my personal observation, is that they gain months and months of knowledge and experience during testing and don't share it. (after testing is over)
Ouch, that is not nice James. When tS7 came out I provided a UI guide, a large toolbar (to replace the tiny one) and I spent a lot of time helping folks out with the program as best I could (check the archives). After 7.5 I helped again where I could, started a hair tutorial which Heidi finished to an excellent standard. I even wrote a guide for making your own icons should you want to match the rest of the UI.
Beta testers often write examples for the chapters in the manual too...and test...and try to help out...and don't get paid a bean!
I know that certain testers pummel away at areas of code the average 'artist/designer' would never touch...what can they do? Offer their services and hope someone is interested.
I cannot think of any question on here unanswered after the release of a tS version. This is a great, helpful community and even as a 'non-beta' I find that comment pretty hurtful...:(
Perhaps you could give a specific example to substantiate your claims.
I was itching to tell you all about the cloth I 'discovered' while checking the UI on Saturday. I dearly wanted to show the image I made (can I Roman?) in minutes and no instruction at all. Artistically it was not that impressive but it was a plane and two button clicks...I was amazed and wanted to share...but I cannot. If 7.6 were out I would not hesitate to show how I did it...but the beta team seem to be getting much better results anyway. |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 7, 2008, 1:32pm
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Okay, so I was wrong.
Testers should grab their free software and zip their lips after testing.
Yet another reason to move on. |
Post by hemulin // Apr 7, 2008, 2:45pm
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Okay, so I was wrong.
Testers should grab their free software and zip their lips after testing.
Yet another reason to move on.
James, you are twisting our words. I will quite happily argue this out with you (because I want you to understand the position beta testers are in) but only if you provide sensible, meaningful counter arguments. |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 7, 2008, 2:50pm
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James, you are twisting our words. I will quite happily argue this out with you (because I want you to understand the position beta testers are in) but only if you provide sensible meaninful counter arguments.
You're right, my words have no meaning. As I said I should move on.
BTW, I was beta testing software in the 1980s long before many here were even thought about what a computer is.
Less posts, more work will be my policy here on out.
I've been wasting my available resources. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 7, 2008, 2:59pm
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W!ZARD
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Okay, so I was wrong.
Testers should grab their free software and zip their lips after testing.
Yet another reason to move on.
I think you are well out of order here James. In all my years of using these forums I've never had a question regarding the use of released versions that was not answered, more often than not by someone in the Beta Team.
We can all take our opinions too far or type without thinking but you have overstepped the mark from what I see.
Hide behind your crusty curmudgeon routine if you wish but I believe you owe a general apology.
Wizard - Fanboy For Fair Play |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 7, 2008, 3:46pm
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jamesmc
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I think you are well out of order here James. In all my years of using these forums I've never had a question regarding the use of released versions that was not answered, more often than not by someone in the Beta Team.
We can all take our opinions too far or type without thinking but you have overstepped the mark from what I see.
Hide behind your crusty curmudgeon routine if you wish but I believe you owe a general apology.
Wizard - Fanboy For Fair Play
For what?
Perhaps you should take your own advice. |
Post by trueBlue // Apr 7, 2008, 4:00pm
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You know what James? I have noticed in the last several weeks, that you have insulted with your own words the Developers, Caligari, and now betaTesters. You really should do a reality check. If you need help with what you have said, you could do an Advanced search by user name. There really is no need for this at all. |
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