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New 7.6 Coming Soon?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
New 7.6 Coming Soon? // Work in Progress
Post by Steinie // Apr 7, 2008, 4:11pm
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Steinie
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Let's make a bet. When 7.6 comes out and you find a problem and need help let us see if a Beta Tester doesn't come to your rescue with help and guidance. If they do show up I want you to apologize.
I think your original remark was about the fact that Beta testers could give us a heads start about new features and techniques they learned and help the newbies (me and you) enjoy the new software sooner.
Splinters was there last time for us as he stated. Parva is always around too. Prodigy wasn't a Beta tester last time but you can bet he'll help this time. You have to lock down Frootee and 3Dfrog from helping us, they can't stop helping, their addicted...:D I really can't think of Beta testers that won't help out. |
Post by daybe // Apr 7, 2008, 4:20pm
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Originally Posted by jamesmc
One of my pet peeves about tS beta testers and this is my personal observation, is that they gain months and months of knowledge and experience during testing and don't share it. (after testing is over)
As it has been pointed out many of us have lives to get back to for a short time until the next round of testing begins, for example when 7.5 came out within a week we were already busy at work on patches and work began on 7.6. I have found that the beta testers and the community as a whole are helpful and when asked will share there knowledge.
From my own personnel experience, having created a online course for Caligari, this can be quite the undertaking and I have many years of training experience and a short tutorial can take quite a while to prepare for example, screen caps, or video and text and so on. Granted a short tutorial showing how the bevel tool works may not be seem to like a hard task but it still takes a while.
Anyway just my 2 cents |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 7, 2008, 4:21pm
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You know what James? I have noticed in the last several weeks, that you have insulted with your own words the Developers, Caligari, and now betaTesters. You really should do a reality check. If you need help with what you have said, you could do an Advanced search by user name. There really is no need for this at all.
A reality check...
If I demand excellence, adherence to consistency and generally recognize weak points in a system then I must be insulting then?
The last time I did a cheer leading for trueSpace, I got gang tackled for expressing my opinion in a positive light of Caligari products.
Guess I am viewed through a jaundiced eye when it comes to this forum.
So be it.
As far as the beta testers, yeah technically they don't owe other users anything.
It's the gray secrecy code that has kept CGI in the dark for much too long. People keeping things they have found out, close to their chest.
With the Internet exploding, a lot of those hidden techniques has been exposed. Now the average 'Joe or Josephine' knows what to expect and what can be done.
But you're right about the Beta Testers, I expected too much of them. They are just users and have no obligation to do anything for other users.
I apologize to the Beta Testers for expecting them to do something they do not wish to do.
Collaboration has taken on a whole new meaning... |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 7, 2008, 4:30pm
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jamesmc
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As it has been pointed out many of us have lives to get back to for a short time until the next round of testing begins, for example when 7.5 came out within a week we were already busy at work on patches and work began on 7.6. I have found that the beta testers and the community as a whole are helpful and when asked will share there knowledge.
From my own personnel experience, having created a online course for Caligari, this can be quite the undertaking and I have many years of training experience and a short tutorial can take quite a while to prepare for example, screen caps, or video and text and so on. Granted a short tutorial showing how the bevel tool works may not be seem to like a hard task but it still takes a while.
Anyway just my 2 cents
Actually I purchased your course I think, it was on the model side wasn't it? The light bulb, Photoshop and packaging? It was one of the most enjoyable and well presented courses.
I know teaching is hard, I did it on active duty military status as an instructor, later in technical schools and substituted as a teacher in High Schools for Chemistry and Math courses.
Anyway, watching a basketball game now, be back later. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 7, 2008, 4:53pm
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For what?
Perhaps you should take your own advice.
For what? How about the general hostility of your tone? How about the fact the the bald assertion you made was so blatently counter to the reality that you were immediately surround in a flood of protest?
As far as taking my own advice if I'ver ever been as rude and poorly mannered as your recent posts I would gladly offer any apology requested of me.
I think it is sad that given your age and all the time you've been a member here you have still not learned a bit of tact and diplomacy particularly given the general openness and friendliness that goes on around here.
I'm out of this conversation James having said my piece - I'm off to take my medication. |
Post by daybe // Apr 7, 2008, 4:58pm
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ya it was the lightbulb course, Thanks it took quite a bit of work to produce with many revisions and so forth, most of the work was done in done in modeler as the workspace side was still in it's infancy back then but I tried to incorporate as much as I could. At this point I imagine I would be able to reproduce that course in workspace now in it's current state.
Anyway my point was if you have an issue or what a quick answer to something we are always happy to chip in.
Enjoy the game. |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 7, 2008, 4:58pm
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Fine Wizard,
How about if I just leave, so I don't hurt the tender feelings of the forum members.
Hope you and your buddies enjoyed your gang attack on me.
I already apologized, yet you want to throw it up in my face again.
You can lead the cheer leading on my departure Wizard.
cya |
Post by Steinie // Apr 7, 2008, 5:04pm
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Ok so we have all these wonderful new tools in WorkSpace but can we "Bend" things?
Anyone?
Roman?
Extrude maybe?
Path tools?
Yes or no would help. |
Post by frootee // Apr 7, 2008, 5:12pm
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See, this is EXACTLY why I want to script a Magic 8 Ball! To answer these kinds of questions! :D
Ok so we have all these wonderful new tools in WorkSpace but can we "Bend" things?
Anyone?
Roman?
Extrude maybe?
Path tools?
Yes or no would help. |
Post by hemulin // Apr 7, 2008, 8:58pm
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Ok so we have all these wonderful new tools in WorkSpace but can we "Bend" things?
For a moment that I thought you said can we 'Blend' things.;):D |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 7, 2008, 9:04pm
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Unless I'm mistaken there's already a bend/twist/taper script included with 7.51... :confused: |
Post by Blue Bellyfluff // Apr 7, 2008, 9:16pm
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Fine Wizard,
How about if I just leave, so I don't hurt the tender feelings of the forum members.
Hope you and your buddies enjoyed your gang attack on me.
I already apologized, yet you want to throw it up in my face again.
You can lead the cheer leading on my departure Wizard.
cya
Let us stop arguing people. If you feel the need to leave James, go right ahead but do not behave like a victim you are not. If you have some grudges against Truespace and its users, let it be constructive critisme. Otherwise people will just think 'get a life' or 'what is his problem'? I hope you stay though. Cheers and best regards,
Robert |
Post by Tiles // Apr 7, 2008, 9:18pm
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I don't doubt that the Beta testers do their very best. And it's much appreciated.
Point with Beta testing is: it was never enough to catch the bugs. In no version. With 7.51 this masses of bugs passed the beta testing that i personally cannot use the software. So there is definitely something wrong with the current Beta testing. No matter whose fault. And this needs to change.
The business model of Pro Team for that is something i never understood. And as the history shows something that didn't work well neither. Because those guys rarely paid for making beta testing. They paid to get the patches and courses. Patches that should arrive to the folks, the normal users where these patches are needed, and never did. I also never understood why courses have to be this exclusively. An user that don't know how to use the software is not long a user of the software ...
Public Beta testing is a very valid solution for the current misery whe have here. A better working one than the current way. Because as mentioned, everybody has its very special workflow. Plus some touch this tools and others not, and others touch that tool and others not. And the more people have a look at, the more bugs gets catched. |
Post by Tiles // Apr 7, 2008, 9:25pm
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Nope, let's NOT stop arguing. But let's stop getting things personal here.
What i never ever will understand is that discussing about a software and its tools will cause to break somebody's feelings as it happens here again and again.
A Software is a tool. Not a member of the family that needs to be defeated from intruders. No need to put out the gun when somebody dislikes parts of it or reports a bug. And in the other direction neither. For me those who defeats bugs and quirks are poor souls. But nothing more. And i even can discuss with them normally. No need to get things personal, really.
And stop telling people to leave. Everybody who paid for the software has the right to be here. And has the right to post what he wants as long as it is not against the forum rules. And that is something that is not to decide by an user here. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 7, 2008, 9:56pm
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Likely what happens is that the beta testers get worn out. The software development process is very intensive and Caligari has the most hard paced cycle I've ever seen. Of course the users, beta testers, Roman's vision for the future of TrueSpace, and the competitive market demand it. ;)
I think a public beta some months before release is a VERY good idea and would definitely alleviate some of the stress off the internal beta team at a point where I think beta tester fatigue is setting in the most. Microsoft usually has public betas before releasing a product, it'd be great if Caligari could move in that direction now that they are a Microsoft company... ;) |
Post by Tiles // Apr 7, 2008, 10:35pm
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Hmm, the market demands working tools. Not broken ones.
A software with a bones system where the bones system doesn't work is no software with a bones system. A software with displacement tools where the displacement not works is no software with displacement tools.
The list of tools is worthless when those mentioned tools doesn't work. And that counts for too many areas in the workspace. |
Post by jayr // Apr 8, 2008, 12:03am
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Tiles, please don't take this as an attack on you, it's anything but...
Have you considered becoming a beta-tester? you seem to have a passion for bug squishing, at the rate you find them you should be able to help clean the program up. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 8, 2008, 12:08am
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I agree with Jayr, Tiles. It would be a constructive way to deal with your frustration with the application. And you do have a knack for finding all the different ways TS doesn't work for you. ;) |
Post by Tiles // Apr 8, 2008, 1:17am
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Why should i see it as an attack? I am very used to catch bugs because i make games since years. And would be glad to help out at catching them. I do it anyways as you can see in the bugs section, heh. Somehow constructive too. It is that simply nobody asked me so far to become a beta tester. Would be definitely worth thinking about :)
The main problem with that is my current health situation though. I am a pensioner because of health problems, dont have full power anymore, and am unfortunately more than one day per month completely out of order. It can even happen that i am away for weeks or even months. Now imagine this happens in the months before the release, the months where excessive beta testing is needed. It can even happen the day after i become a beta tester. Have lost my beta tester status for another software that way before.
So the problem is i simply cannot promise anything when i gets asked to test this or that. Fixed dates and deadlines are my enemies.
When that would be fine i wouldn't mind to become a beta tester, but wouldn`t be too angry when not :) |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 8, 2008, 1:43am
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The main problem with that is my current health situation though. I am a pensioner because of health problems, dont have full power anymore, and am unfortunately more than one day per month completely out of order. It can even happen that i am away for weeks or even months. Now imagine this happens in the months before the release, the months where excessive beta testing is needed. It can even happen the day after i become a beta tester. Have lost my beta tester status for another software that way before.
Sorry to hear that Tiles - sounds like we have more in common than I realised as I am in a similar situation. Some days I think I would go crazy if I didn't have trueSpace to try to figure out how best to use it - it keeps my mind active anyway.:). |
Post by Tiles // Apr 8, 2008, 1:51am
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Sorry to hear that Wizard. I wish you healthy days :) |
Post by Steinie // Apr 8, 2008, 7:28am
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Unless I'm mistaken there's already a bend/twist/taper script included with 7.51... :confused:
Does anyone know if this is true? I would like to test that out. |
Post by frootee // Apr 8, 2008, 7:51am
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In the Objects - Tutorial Objects library, there is the twist deform tool, but I am not sure that is what you are looking for. |
Post by Igor K Handel // Apr 8, 2008, 8:53am
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You beat me to it. Seems blatently obvious that Tiles should be at least considered as a beta tester. Glad I'm not the only one to spot that, you just got your posts in quicker :mad:
All this talk of public beta testing..... taps screen "Hello....wake up guys.... we already are!!!", it's just you/we paid for it? Masterful marketing I have got to say.
All this techno mumbo jumbo.. If a tool does not work as described in the manual etc it is BROKEN!! Black and white is I have PAID for a toolset, and some of the tools are BROKEN from day 1. I don't design woodwork tools, that why I pay money to buy them. Naturally if the woodwork tool does not work as described I am entitled to a replacement or a refund. So back to basics. TS is a set of tools with a nice carrycase (the GUI) but it has been shipped with many faulty tools. So a blind man on a galloping horse can see..
1. For whatever reason the current BETA testing is NOT working in its current format. (and I in no way blame the beta testers for that)
2. The thread about previous versions and their stability, bugs etc, I read as basically they have all been flakey to various extents. Do I read into this a business decision to ship flakey products, then bring out a new version with new TOYS/TOOLS to entice, and repeat the cycle? Observations not rants pls!
3. I have rarely seen such passion on a forum, but things are getting too personal. Guys I remind you that a common desire that should bind all here together is a to have a stable toolset that performs as described. That should be the overall goal. This personal stuff will eat away at one of the unique things about this forum. That of open collaboration of freely given help, and genuine goodwill to all. Don't let this degenerate, that would be a catastrophe!!!
4. Tiles I prefer to think of of debating/discussing rather than arguing. But yes I agree the debating should continue.
5. Perhaps the sheer exasperation at the scale of bugs has just pushed users patience just that much too far. Time to hear some warning bells Caligari?
Dingaling.
Yours with best wishes
IK (still on hold pending developments, ball firmly in Caligari court) |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 8, 2008, 3:00pm
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W!ZARD
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All this talk of public beta testing..... taps screen "Hello....wake up guys.... we already are!!!", it's just you/we paid for it? Masterful marketing I have got to say.
All this techno mumbo jumbo.. If a tool does not work as described in the manual etc it is BROKEN!! Black and white is I have PAID for a toolset, and some of the tools are BROKEN from day 1. I don't design woodwork tools, that why I pay money to buy them. Naturally if the woodwork tool does not work as described I am entitled to a replacement or a refund. So back to basics. TS is a set of tools with a nice carrycase (the GUI) but it has been shipped with many faulty tools. So a blind man on a galloping horse can see..Hi Igor - that's an interesting spin. I'm not disagreeing that tS has it's bugs but I don't see the woodworking tools metaphor as being strictly applicable. It's easy enough to replace a broken chisel or a bent screwdriver as they are separate tools. trueSpace - or any complex program - is more like one tool with many interconnected attachments. Unlike replacing a separate individual tool, replacing an analogous software attachment can, if not done with the appropriate care and testing, mean that the chisel attachment gets fixed but the head falls off the hammer!
A complex interconnected system like a software package is not really comparable to a tool-chest full of woodworking tools.
1. For whatever reason the current BETA testing is NOT working in its current format. (and I in no way blame the beta testers for that) Playing devils advocate here (you did say the debating should continue;)) I have to ask is this true? Prior to tS7.1 the old architecture was inadequate for the task - arguably since tS 4 when the first buggy bones arrived. In the same way that you don't perform the same tests on a diesel engine as you do on an LPG engine, the testing procedure for pre tS7.x must be different to the test procedures post tS 7.x. The new architecture requires a new test protocol.
Anyone who remembers tS7.1 and the degree of improvement shown in the subsequent release should, I think, be willing to acknowledge that tS 7.5 is a big step up from the previous version.
It seems to me that condemning the current beta protocols as 'not working' is premature. It's safe to say they might not be working, and that many users have doubts about them but if tS7.6 comes out as a highly stable and relatively bug free version then any suggestion that the current beta protocols are flawed would be shown to be wrong. Obviously if tS 7.6 is as buggy as 7.5 then your statement would be supported.
2. The thread about previous versions and their stability, bugs etc, I read as basically they have all been flakey to various extents. Do I read into this a business decision to ship flakey products, then bring out a new version with new TOYS/TOOLS to entice, and repeat the cycle? Observations not rants pls! This may raise howls of protest but I suggest that comparisons between the relative stability and 'flakiness' of earlier versions and the tS7.x versions not valid. The old architecture was inherently buggy and insufficient for the task. The new architecture is... well, new! Any 'bugginess' in the new versions has a different root cause to bugginess in the old version. It's like comparing steam engines with electric engines.
I think it is valid to suggest that the tS 7.x range was released before it was a 'complete' package but how much of the decision to release it 'as is', while still effectively a Work In Progress, was driven by customer pressure to fix the unfixable bugs in the old architecture?
3. I have rarely seen such passion on a forum, but things are getting too personal. Guys I remind you that a common desire that should bind all here together is a to have a stable toolset that performs as described. That should be the overall goal. This personal stuff will eat away at one of the unique things about this forum. That of open collaboration of freely given help, and genuine goodwill to all. Don't let this degenerate, that would be a catastrophe!!! Speaking for myself I always strive to separate the person from the opinion. For me disagreeing with an opinion is not the same as disagreeing with the person. Tiles and I have differing views (or more accurately differing ways of expressing similar views) but he shows respect for the person even when not agreeing with them. I aim for that also.
Others feel it is appropriate to make sweeping judgements without being prepared to support them with example and explanation. Where I come from that is called bad manners. It doesn't overly worry me but it will usually compel me to address the behaviour in a hopefully courteous way. Anyone wishing to call me derogatory names is welcome to do so - they are entitled to an opinion after all. I would just ask them to justify their reasons for doing so.
4. Tiles I prefer to think of of debating/discussing rather than arguing. But yes I agree the debating should continue. Hear hear! No argument from me on this one:D
5. Perhaps the sheer exasperation at the scale of bugs has just pushed users patience just that much too far. Time to hear some warning bells Caligari?
Dingaling.A fair comment Igor although it does assume Caligari have not already heard them and assumes that the 'scale of bugs' seen in earlier versions will also apply to the next version. Just because I burnt the last few slices of toast does not mean that I'll burn the next slice.:D
Yours with best wishes
IK (still on hold pending developments, ball firmly in Caligari court)
Thanks for your input Igor - you've provided some good food for thought.
wzrd |
Post by Tiles // Apr 8, 2008, 9:30pm
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Hi Igor - that's an interesting spin. I'm not disagreeing that tS has it's bugs but I don't see the woodworking tools metaphor as being strictly applicable. It's easy enough to replace a broken chisel or a bent screwdriver as they are separate tools. trueSpace - or any complex program - is more like one tool with many interconnected attachments. Unlike replacing a separate individual tool, replacing an analogous software attachment can, if not done with the appropriate care and testing, mean that the chisel attachment gets fixed but the head falls off the hammer!
A complex interconnected system like a software package is not really comparable to a tool-chest full of woodworking tools.
It pretty well is. You buy a bundle of tools in both cases. And then you notice that the hammer is broken, that the saw misses more than one tooth, there is a case for screwdrivers but they are missing, the knife breaks after the second use ...
The difference is, for a broken hammer you can go to the shop to buy a new one. Which you can't do with the broken tools in trueSpace.
And we are back at one of my initial points: trueSpace needs a more regular update than delivering the fixed chisels with the next version a year after the release, fixing it NOT at the end the fix is really needed: the version where the chisels are broken. A patch every 3-4 months is a must have with this masses of bugs we have at the moment. Or better said it would have been a must have. Too late now. Folks are gone.
And again i hope the same mistake will not be repeated with 7.6, hoping that with every version since years. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 8, 2008, 11:08pm
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It pretty well is. You buy a bundle of tools in both cases. And then you notice that the hammer is broken, that the saw misses more than one tooth, there is a case for screwdrivers but they are missing, the knife breaks after the second use ...
I think that completely oversimplifies the case Tiles - in a wood-working toolkit each tool is separate and autonomous - if one tool is faulty it's a simple one for one swap. For us end-users trueSpace is like a box of tools, but to the programmers the 'individual' tools are all interconnected. It's far more like a complex manufacturing device than a simple tool set. A woodworkers tools interact directly with the medium - the wood. 3d software has to simulate the medium mathematically, represent it visually to the user and calculate the simulated actions of various tools in the working space.
If you paint a piece of wood the paintbrush applies a material which reacts to light. A 3d soft has to simulate that process. Paint doesn't actually actively calculate specularity and ambient colour - it just reflects light in accordance with the known laws of physics and optics. A 3d soft must calculate the specularity and colour and so on, to simulate the actions of the known laws of physics and optics.
Render engines and PE tools must be able to interpret a virtual mathematical model - changing the way one tool operates on the virtual entity can easily affect the way that other tools and components interact with the entity.
Hammers and chisels work directly with a real-world medium - they simply transmit physical energy in simple and specified ways. 3d softs have to simulate and remember everything. A saw does not need to remember the last cut it made to be able to make the next one - software does.
For these reasons the metaphor of a wood workers tool box is not really applicable - although it does have it's uses it does not correctly represent the true complexities of 3d software.
...and we are back at one of my initial points: trueSpace needs a more regular update than delivering the fixed chisels with the next version a year after the release. A patch every 3-4 months is a must have with this masses of bugs we have at the moment. Or better said it would have been a must have. Too late now. Folks are gone.
And again i hope the same mistake will not be repeated with 7.6You make a good case Tiles. I think most users would prefer 4 small upgrade/patch/bug-fixes a year rather than one super-upgrade - I know I would.
On the other hand, imagine you are Caligari's person in charge of ...say, documentation. You have a finite budget and you must provide the best possible documentation you can whilst remaining within that budget.
Version X of the software has been released and along with it is the manual you have written documenting the use of a brand new feature - lets call it the Eyeball tool for the sake of discussion. Suppose that after release of the software a new bug comes to light - the Eyeball tool works in most common cases but when used in conjunction with the Nose tool on certain types of PC it malfunctions.
The bug is noted, reported to the developers and fixed. To fix it, it was necessary to change the interface - perhaps by adding a "Blend with Nose" button. The manual says nothing about the new button so that particular chapter must be re-written or, at the very least an addendum created to document the change.
This is an unforeseen event - your documentation budget did not take it into account and there is no money available to your department to produce a new manual, or chapter or addendum.
Remember that fixing that bug has consequences and not just for the documentation. To add the new button the background code for it must be written, the UI must be altered to make space, which could mean that a whole menu/toolbar or dialogue box must be altered. Each and every alteration has the potential to create new problems. Imagine going to all that work and effort to fix the eyeball tool only too release the upgrade and find that now the ear tool is broken.
A small software company has to balance all these things - including what the tax man wants what the marketers want what the shareholders (assuming you have them) want, what the Fair Trade association wants, the Bureau for the Ecology, the trade unions, the workplace safety, the staff, the accountants and the bankers all wanting their individual agendas met - oh yeah, and then there's what the customers want.:D So what do you do?
I could be wrong but I imagine if I was a small company I would hold off on the bugfix patch until such time as it was financially viable and possible to release an upgrade plus the documentation.
In circumstances like this it seems to me it must be more cost effective to release 1 upgrade per year (with appropriate documentation) than to release a series of smaller patches/upgrades/bug fixes etc.
I could be wrong - it could be that Roman is really a Mad Scientist type who just loves pissing people off;). I suspect however that there is a perfectly good reason that a company able to create a software package as innovative and complex as trueSpace 7.5 chooses to beta test and release upgrades in the way they do.
I'm sorry Tiles but I simply don't buy the "Caligari does not care" theory. People who get into making software (especially creative software) tend to do it exactly because they do care!
Sorry for the long post but I wanted to present a good case. |
Post by parva // Apr 8, 2008, 11:30pm
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*break*
This discussion can full books :D
*and keep going* |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 8, 2008, 11:45pm
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LOL Parva :)
Here's my red herring for the day:
Sometimes fakes are better looking, easier to use, and faster than simulation. Specular is a good example of that, since specular in trueSpace is really just a fake for reflection over a bumpy surface....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specular_reflection
A real simulation would calculate the reflection instead of replacing the anticipated "bright" areas (reflections of the light source) with a solid color. :p |
Post by Tiles // Apr 8, 2008, 11:46pm
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:D
We discuss round in circles here. We have been at the point of the business model before. Current business model has cost hundrets of users, leaving the remaining ones unsatisfied. I simply cannot say it is a good one.
I make games since years too, and know at least from that angle what i talk about when it comes to bugs and fixing them. And i work alone, make everything by myself :)
Your told case here is more than bug fixing. This is adding new features. Which is a completely different chapter. A tool that is there should work when i click the button for it. And fixing that doesn't mean to add new features. |
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