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New 7.6 Coming Soon?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
New 7.6 Coming Soon? // Work in Progress
Post by Tiles // Apr 10, 2008, 2:06am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Tell me and i will fix :) |
Post by KeithC // Apr 10, 2008, 2:30am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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Wow; you've got quite the collection of games and apps there! I've heard of your tile sets before in the Indi Game Dev community. I'd like to add your site to our Network at BDG.
-Keith |
Post by Tiles // Apr 10, 2008, 2:53am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Oh, thanks. And you can of course add a link. Is always welcome :)
(Hum, should have included my signature a bit earlier. Wonder how i could have missed that ... ) |
Post by KeithC // Apr 10, 2008, 6:19am
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KeithC
Total Posts: 467
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Sounds good. If you have/want to make a graphic for your link in the Network page; let me know, otherwise I'll make one up myself. Once I get yours up on my site; I'll send you a link to our site, to be placed in your links section. :)
-Keith |
Post by Tiles // Apr 10, 2008, 6:32am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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I fear you have to use your selfmade one. I have no banner. I hate them :) |
Post by 2much4U // Apr 10, 2008, 6:41am
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2much4U
Total Posts: 430
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You mind sharing the link to that statement?
I'm remembering it from one of the old threads. Give me a sec and I'll find it for you... |
Post by Steinie // Apr 10, 2008, 7:06am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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tick, tick, tick, tick.... 2much4 U I just don't think it exist. PLEASE prove me wrong!:)
Are you thinking of the benefits of being a ProTeam Member instead?
It is amazing the different topics going on in this thread....and I put it in WIP by mistake. |
Post by 2much4U // Apr 10, 2008, 7:09am
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2much4U
Total Posts: 430
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Huh, that's odd... :confused:
I looked through Roman's old posts and I can't find it. Maybe it was Tom, lemme look through his... |
Post by 2much4U // Apr 10, 2008, 7:17am
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2much4U
Total Posts: 430
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I sent an email to Tom about this. If it was just my imagination, sorry to have gotten everyone all excited about it. If it's true, great news to everyone! |
Post by rrf // Apr 10, 2008, 10:47am
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rrf
Total Posts: 319
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Tiles,
Great Site! Thank You for the houses, I'm always looking for stuff like that (maybe I'll even try a game or two :))
rf |
Post by Tiles // Apr 10, 2008, 8:49pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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You're welcome :) |
Post by TomG // Apr 11, 2008, 3:10am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Just to reply, no statement on pricing for tS7.6 was released or made. It's policy not to discuss pricing until release is imminent, basically at the same time we have the feature set. So we wouldn't have commented so far either way on the pricing (including if pricing was "free") of the tS7.6 upgrade.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by 2much4U // Apr 11, 2008, 3:58am
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2much4U
Total Posts: 430
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Just to reply, no statement on pricing for tS7.6 was released or made. It's policy not to discuss pricing until release is imminent, basically at the same time we have the feature set. So we wouldn't have commented so far either way on the pricing (including if pricing was "free") of the tS7.6 upgrade.
HTH!
Tom
Thanks for clarifying that. Sorry to have caused any unneeded drama! My mistake.:( |
Post by Igor K Handel // Apr 11, 2008, 7:21am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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I Genuinely don't want to stir up a hornets nest here, and I have every good wish for TS, but I feel that I should hold up my hand and be counted, BEFORE pricing is considered.
Other than price one of the principle reasons for purchasing TS (about 3 months ago) was the introducion of Character anim tools. It is important that you understand that I am NOT slagging off TS I just need you to be aware of the position as a new user I am now in. I am hoping that the route ahead becomes smoother, both for Caligari, AND TS users.
As a result of various well documented bugs, flaws, gremlins... call them what you will, the software has not performed as I had hoped, and whilst in some cases there are workarounds in others there are not. In either case this at best makes some actions, more protracked than anticipated, and at worst just not reliably available.
Important note. This is not about money. I purchased TS knowing it was in a transient stage, ref workspace/model side. I bought into the TS ideal/concept call it what you will. I still believe in that ideal. However due to the nature of gremlins learning TS has become a chore. Spending so much time trying to establish if I have done something wrong, or is it a bug, or if there is a workaround has just taken all the shine off what I still believe could be an awesome set of tools for 3D and animation.
So I now find myself more than somewhat wary of what 7.6 may hold (bug wise). I hope you can understand why. The situation has put me in a position I haven't been in with software before.
If there is a cost for 7.6 I HAVE to wait before purchase to monitor what other users say about bugs etc. If there is a nominal cost I will still wait a couple of months to see if this route is worth pursuing. If it is free well naturally I will give it a go.
Of course I understand that the company has to make a living. Of course there will be SOME unforseen bugs/gremlins, I can fully understand that.
It's strange but I am almost willing this baby to do the biz, I really want to follow the TS route. I also find it somehow odd that I feel so strongly about software I have only used for 3 months. But TS is like no other program/package I have ever used in 20 years. IE The CEO involved in the forum, the help given in abundance by forum users. The interface (workspace), the concept of collaboration. The list goes on and on.
I am so willing this to turn out well. But I need you to understand that I have to sit on the fence until this next version. What happens next will determine if I cut my losses(from my point of view) or continue to grow as a loyal TS user for future versions.
To any that reply PLEASE do NOT turn this into a TS/Caligari bashing session, that is NOT my intention. I WANT Caligari to do well and I so desperately want 7.6 to be what I had envisaged when I purchased 7.51
Sincerely
IK |
Post by Ambrose // Apr 11, 2008, 9:32am
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Ambrose
Total Posts: 261
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Just wait until version 8 is out.
Then start to use it, problem solved!
SeYa/Ambrose... |
Post by v3rd3 // Apr 11, 2008, 4:30pm
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v3rd3
Total Posts: 388
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Just to reply, no statement on pricing for tS7.6 was released or made. It's policy not to discuss pricing until release is imminent, basically at the same time we have the feature set. So we wouldn't have commented so far either way on the pricing (including if pricing was "free") of the tS7.6 upgrade.
HTH!
Tom
Hi Tom! Thanks for the explanation. Should the need arise I will be happy to share my input with the committee. :D |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 11, 2008, 7:45pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hi Tiles - have taken some time out to consider my reply.
Rather than rehash old ground I want to say this: In my life I have experienced answers to questions that provoked an "Ah of course, that makes sense" response which feels convincing and satisfying.
I've also experienced answers which sounded plausible but did not feel quite right - not fully satisfying but close enough to get by.
Then there is the answers that sound plausible but just don't feel right.
Then there are answers that simply don't sound plausible at all.
From my point of view, your answers fall into the last too categories.
You can say that you're a programmer and I'm not and therefore I'm not able to form a valid opinion but I believe that is an elitist cop out. I'm not a surgeon but I know how a gastric bypass works, I'm not a mechanic but I know how internal combustion engines work, I'm not a cellist but I know how a cello works, I'm not an economist but I know how economics work.
I'm not a Quantum physicist but I know Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle nor am I a mathematician but I know about chaos theory and hydrodynamics and I know that the more one imposes order on a complex system the more entropy will seem to oppose that order.
I know you can write bug free code and I know you can write complex code but you can't write complex and bug free code.
With all of this knowledge I can sense when an answer feels right or wrong - as I'm sure you can too about things that are outside your area of expertise.
I've persisted with this conversation in the hope that you would be able to clarify your answers in such a way that your answers felt satisfying to me. I've tried using various metaphors to explain why your answers are unsatisfying and your response has been to basically repeat yourself.
Nothing would please me more than to be able to say "Aha! Tiles is right, I understand what he is saying, it sounds plausible and feels right". Unfortunately that has not occurred. I remain unconvinced.
I'm not saying that you are wrong, or that I am right - if I wanted to be right I could just accept your answers and say 'This is right, Tiles said so and I agree'. My problem is and always has been that your answers are not convincing - I would feel unable to pass your answers on to someone else and feel confident that they are valid.
Thank you for persevering with this discussion - I appreciate your efforts and good intentions. There seems little point in continuing however - simply repeating an answer that feels right to you and wrong to me will not allow me to see any greater validity in your answers.
Your assertion that Caligari do not care for their customers is totally against my own observations. Your arguments to support this claim are not convincing.
I note with interest that others have not contributed to our discussion with clear support for your position or mine - suggesting that there are many other opinions out there.
I do not intend to continue this discussion with you although I will of course try to answer any questions you may have as best I can.
Once again, thanks for the chat
ATB
Stephen
W!ZARD |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 11, 2008, 8:02pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Request this thread be moved somewhere else.
It's junking up the Work in Progress thread. |
Post by Tiles // Apr 11, 2008, 9:04pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Wizard, i guess you haven't really understand what i said. And i guess that's why you have this feeling. Unfortunately nothing i know ;)
I'm not a surgeon but I know how a gastric bypass works,
You think you know. But you are not able to do a bypass. You lack of important knowledge. And you would surely kill your patient.
As a sidenote, would you agree with me that complications could lead to the fact that the surgeon has to operate again? Or should he wait another year because it is more cost effective?
I'm not a mechanic but I know how internal combustion engines work
Do you really know all calculations that leaded to how thick this part of the engine is, how strong this splint, out of what material this part is ... ? You cannot construct it. And a engine made by you will probably explode. One made by me too. We lack important knowledge.
As a sidenote, would you agree with me that too much exploded engines could lead to the fact that the engineer has to recalculate his baby, and fix the issue that leads to the explosions? Or shall he wait another year to deliver the changings with the next version because it is more cost effective?
I stop here. What i want to say is that half knowledge is a very dangerous thing. And we are full of it. Everybody of us.
But in our discussion there is a difference. I don't have just half knowledge, i am the one that has full knowledge when it comes to making software. I make software. But every time i share my knowledge and experience you say that is no valid argument. Really hard to discuss with you.
And in nearly every post you throw in new chunks of wrong statements, half knowledge and platitudes that has nothing to do with the initial questions and points. Like this one:
I know you can write bug free code and I know you can write complex code but you can't write complex and bug free code.
What has this platitude to do with our problem here? There is no bug free software. Fact. Every programmer will tell you that. And so do i. So what?
That is running out of arguments and throwing a last stone in hope it does some damage.
Or is your point here to discredit my knowledge and skills? I told you that my biggest baby took me three years. It is really big and really complex. And it is pretty stable. It is complex and bug free from what i can say, somehow disproving your above statement. I have delivered fixes as long as i have found a bug, and as long as my users have reportet bugs. I care about my users. A user reports a bug means i fix the bug. Immediately. And i don't save the fix for a next version, i deliver it immediately too. Bugfixing had and has highest priority at my end.
And that's simply what i would love to see at Caligari's end too. From my angle of view, with my knowledge, it would be a win win situation for both sides, the users and Caligari. Because happy customers buys the next version too.
... suggesting that there are many other opinions out there.
Do you talk about your 800 non existant new users here? Or the people that share your opinion that every bugfix needs a rewrite of the tool? The difference between guessing and knowing ... ;)
That's what i know: Nearly everybody i talked about this issue was my opinion. Caligari does a bad job when it comes to bugfixing. Caligari doesn't care about its customers. Else Caligari would deliver the needed patches. And i talked to lots of people. People that are gone now because of this issue. They call me crazy that i still stuck with this buggy piece of software.
Let's resume. I know, you guess. But my arguments are not valid for you. Makes indeed a further discussion pretty complicated. The discussion was nevertheless fun. Even when i couldn't convince you. Thanks :) |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 12, 2008, 3:11am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Wizard, i guess you haven't really understand what i said. And i guess that's why you have this feeling. Unfortunately nothing i know ;)
I think I've understood you perfectly well - after all the central theme of your argument has not really changed. I remain unconvinced.
I never said I could do a gastric bypass, I said I know how they work. I know the core principles involved and I know that a gastric bypass does not involve brain surgery. I know that a section of the intestinal tract is surgically removed, I know this involves many complex additional procedures like anaesthetics and sterile environment, etc etc.
I know if someone says a gastric bypass patient needs to have an arm amputated first that this statement is not convincing.
In the same way I know your position that a bug is a bug and needs to be fixed fails to account for neither the true complexity of writing software nor the true complexities of business and marketing that software.
Your mode of expression is very black and white compared to my more grayscale mode. As a matter of personal policy I am always highly suspicious of most forms of absolute statement. Entropic universe running on quantum indeterminacy perceived through 5 analogue senses and filtered through the conceptual structures of human awareness convince me that absolute statements are (usually) not to be trusted.
Do you really know all calculations that leaded to how thick this part of the engine is, how strong this splint, out of what material this part is ... ? You cannot construct it. And a engine made by you will probably explode. One made by me too. We lack important knowledge.This is a good example of your tendency to speak in absolute terms. You have also twisted what I have said - I did not say I could build an engine I said I know how they work - a very different statement
As a sidenote, would you agree with me that too much exploded engines could lead to the fact that the engineer has to recalculate his baby, and fix the issue that leads to the explosions? Or shall he wait another year to deliver the changings with the next version because it is more cost effective?LOL - not necessarily. Whilst exploding engines could be a result of an engineering error, real world complexities and the actions of entropy could create a wide range of other potential causes for the explosions. Poor quality of the alloys used, poor adherence to manufacturing standards and tolerances and so on. Which is really my central point - in one case it may be an engineering error that causes an explosion but not all explosions are cause by engineering errors.
In some cases apparently poor bug fixing policies may be the result of a company that does not care but this does not mean that all (apparently) poor bug fix policies are the result of uncaring companies.
I agree with your comment below - that half knowledge is a dangerous thing. I'm not questioning your knowledge of bug fixing or software writing - but I do question your knowledge of the full circumstances surrounding Caligari's decision to release bug fixes and updates in the way they do.
They will know how many customers they gain and lose - they will know which bug fixing strategy is the most effective overall taking all practical and business considerations into account- which is why they have accountants!
You and I however can only guess based on our own background knowledge and experience. I'm guessing they have a good reason for doing what they do - you're guessing that you know what that reason is (the company does not care).
You know all you need to know to write your software and fix it's bugs - but unless you have access to Caligari's account books and company policy documents and strategic planning meetings you only have half knowledge and cannot say for certain that Caligari does not care.
I stop here. What i want to say is that half knowledge is a very dangerous thing. And we are full of it. Everybody of us.
But in our discussion there is a difference. I don't have just half knowledge, i am the one that has full knowledge when it comes to making software. I make software. But every time i share my knowledge and experience you say that is no valid argument. Really hard to discuss with you.
And in nearly every post you throw in new chunks of wrong statements, half knowledge and platitudes that has nothing to do with the initial questions and points. Like this one:
What has this platitude to do with our problem here? There is no bug free software. Fact. Every programmer will tell you that. And so do i. So what?
That is running out of arguments and throwing a last stone in hope it does some damage.
Or is your point here to discredit my knowledge and skills? I told you that my biggest baby took me three years. It is really big and really complex. And it is pretty stable. It is complex and bug free from what i can say, somehow disproving your above statement. I have delivered fixes as long as i have found a bug, and as long as my users have reportet bugs. I care about my users. A user reports a bug means i fix the bug. Immediately. And i don't save the fix for a next version, i deliver it immediately too. Bugfixing had and has highest priority at my end.
And that's simply what i would love to see at Caligari's end too. From my angle of view, with my knowledge, it would be a win win situation for both sides, the users and Caligari. Because happy customers buys the next version too.
Do you talk about your 800 non existant new users here? Or the people that share your opinion that every bugfix needs a rewrite of the tool? The difference between guessing and knowing ... ;)
That's what i know: Nearly everybody i talked about this issue was my opinion. Caligari does a bad job when it comes to bugfixing. Caligari doesn't care about its customers. Else Caligari would deliver the needed patches. And i talked to lots of people. People that are gone now because of this issue. They call me crazy that i still stuck with this buggy piece of software.
Let's resume. I know, you guess. But my arguments are not valid for you. Makes indeed a further discussion pretty complicated. The discussion was nevertheless fun. Even when i couldn't convince you. Thanks :)
Even at the end I see we reach no agreement!:D As far as why Caligari does what they do, we all guess - you appear to think you know based on your own experience - you may even be right but I remain unconvinced by your arguments.
I'm glad you found our discussion to be fun - I did too.
Until next time....;) |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 12, 2008, 3:12am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Request this thread be moved somewhere else.
It's junking up the Work in Progress thread.
No one forcing you to read it James. |
Post by frootee // Apr 12, 2008, 3:34am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Hm...
Pragmatic Q & A:
Q: Will Caligari change their practices based on this discussion?
A: No.
Q: Does Caligari care about their customers:
A: I am not Caligari. I cannot answer for them. IMHO, they care about me as a customer. I am pleased with my product and customer service. Your results may vary. |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 12, 2008, 5:42am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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No one forcing you to read it James.
An expected answer from you.
This is a part of the forum is for users graphic work that is in progress, not pulpit pounding or personal philosophies.
Everyone has a blog available to them. If you value your personal opinion so highly, why not use the blog?
Oh - the attention factor right? :) |
Post by frootee // Apr 12, 2008, 6:09am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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An expected answer from you.
This is a part of the forum is for users graphic work that is in progress, not pulpit pounding or personal philosophies.
Everyone has a blog available to them. If you value your personal opinion so highly, why not use the blog?
Oh - the attention factor right? :)
I am not trying to point fingers here but keep in mind this thread was started by someone else.
Nonetheless, I do agree this ought to be moved somewhere else. Either the Rants and Raves since this is an ongoing conversation that is not related to artistic feedback, or, as suggested, the blogs.
Moving right along... |
Post by jayr // Apr 12, 2008, 6:22am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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I am not trying to point fingers here but keep in mind this thread was started by someone else.
Nonetheless, I do agree this ought to be moved somewhere else. Either the Rants and Raves since this is an ongoing conversation that is not related to artistic feedback, or, as suggested, the blogs.
Moving right along...
I think steinie has said he put it here by mistake, i think the roundtable would be a good place, although it is starting to resemble a rant.... |
Post by Steinie // Apr 12, 2008, 6:51am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Tiles and Wizard if you two would like to continue your discussion please start a new Thread in the proper Forum. You can link to it from here if you want.
I will start a new thread in the "Roundtable" Forum for discussion about 7.6.
Jayr and JamesMc I'll start this in the proper place for you all. Sorry about that.
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=65075#post65075 |
Post by Tiles // Apr 12, 2008, 6:59am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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All is said ;) |
Post by frootee // Apr 12, 2008, 7:05am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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no prob SteinMeister!
And thanks for starting a new thread. :)
Froo
EDIT:
This reminds me of that classic Star Trek episode where two characters (played by the same actor) were in constant battle with each other for all eternity.
And of course, Kirk gets involved somehow, bouncing between two different dimensions... |
Post by trueBlue // Apr 12, 2008, 7:50am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Oh cool! I had $50.00 on Tiles would have the last word. Do I win? :) |
Post by spacekdet // Apr 12, 2008, 8:01am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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I'd also like to chime in here and state that I also have nothing more to say about this.
12051 |
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