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New 7.6 Coming Soon?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
New 7.6 Coming Soon? // Work in Progress
Post by Igor K Handel // Apr 4, 2008, 7:20am
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Igor K Handel
Total Posts: 411
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Its no good I have waited and watched and this degenerates.
I AM that new user, that potential longterm repeat customer... But only just, I am hanging by the slimmest of threads here.
I purchased the latest version of TS just before Chistmas.
One of the principle reasons was that at last Character animation had been looked at. It feels like I have been in limbo ever since, due to the unforseen circumstances.
Well folks here it is from a brand spanking new customers point of view!#
1 I can fully see that Tiles frustration has turned to sheer exasperation, I have to say he has many valid points.
2 On all the management, and sales courses I have been on, it usually comes up that repeated complaints can only happen IF the source problem hasn't been resolved!!
3 Wizard (99% of who's opinions I usually seem to agree with) I disagree with you on the topic of bugs. I can't see any benefit struggling to find what I am doing wrong within a program, thus wasting my own creative time, when if I had checked for reported bugs early, it may have been a bug all the time?
4 I have to agree with JamesMc. Particularly as a new user. The out of date, patchwork of a manual, which I can't even search properly is a proverbial pain, especially for a noob such as myself. He has a valid point about the training Videos as well.
Ok so where am I with TS.
Well right on the brink. I will NOT invest time in further learning this program until the dumbest of bugs are sorted! I mean I will not put up with verts flying off randomly whilst weight painting!! How the heck did that get through Bug testing. (Thats just a minor example) I will NOT spend creative time struggling to find another route because the advertised route doesn't work, I shouldn't have to break both legs to get to the top of the mountain. I paid for a routemap, it should have been thoroughly walked!! I'll walk over the bridge (pun) because it was expected, but I aint prepared to go off piste with no legs (exasperated laugh)
There is something very special about this forum and the passion and talent of all you people here. That and the imput of Roman to this forum. It was also a major factor in purchasing the software. But sorry guys n gals if the next upgrade isn't HUGE on bug fixes and exceptional value, I WILL become an ex customer. A real shame but that IS the way it's become. I could live with the bug fixes and no new toys, all I want is the thing to work as intended.
Best wishes
IK |
Post by splinters // Apr 4, 2008, 9:40am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I have a question. Microsoft now own Caligari and I realise they are not without their own bugs but...are they overseeing the quality of tS7.6 and therefore making sure it meets their WHQL style standards?
After all, it does reflect on them as a piece of Microsoft owned software. I am not sure this has been considered in this argument about old bug fixes.
I have this sneaking suspicion that things will change dramatically after 7.6 but would Microsoft allow it out with well known bugs?
Just something to consider. |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 4, 2008, 9:53am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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I have a question. Microsoft now own Caligari and I realise they are not without their own bugs but...are they overseeing the quality of tS7.6 and therefore making sure it meets their WHQL style standards?
After all, it does reflect on them as a piece of Microsoft owned software. I am not sure this has been considered in this argument about old bug fixes.
I have this sneaking suspicion that things will change dramatically after 7.6 but would Microsoft allow it out with well known bugs?
Just something to consider.
In my opinion, Microsoft was purchasing the technology that exists in WorkSpace, the DX environment.
How Caligari 3D applications for users get played out is a mystery no one has answered or explained for any distant future that is (beyond 7.6)
Of course, I just wrote what you wrote by rephrasing what you just said,
never mind. :) |
Post by Tiles // Apr 4, 2008, 8:34pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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All we know is how things were handled in the past up to now. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 5, 2008, 3:25pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Do you really think limiting answers to something like "aww, look at this neeat feature, it doesn't work, but look it is sooo cute" will change anything at that fact?
LOL - that's not quite what I said Tiles as I think you know. Seems to me that once a bug is reported and on the developers "try to fix this without bankrupting the company in the process" list then re-reporting it is not particularly helpful.
Besides that, i can rarely see permanent complainings here. They are nearly all left, have given up. Speaking for myself, rather than guessing why other folk may have moved on, it would be high levels of negativity and criticality which would drive me from these forums.
One more release like the 7.51 one with hundrets of bugs and no fixes and even Microsoft will not be able to hold Caligari into business.Do you really believe that? I seem to remember some of the operating systems Microsoft released prior to XP were pretty bug-ridden and MS are still here.
I reported dozens of bugs. Caligari didn't care. I still have no bug fixes. And there is a point where you have to put out your ellbows. See above.Thank you for reporting all those bugs - I appreciate the efforts anyone and everyone makes to improve one of my favorite softwares. It seems to me to be a big assumption that Caligari don't care just because they don't produce bug fixes according to your schedule and preferences. These guys seem pretty passionate about their software to me.
Hell, I'm no expert, I'm just a guy who tries to get the best out of what I have. Speaking for myself I don't like to release my latest piece of work until it's as close to finished as I can get it and I guess I assume it's the same principle for Caligari.
Say they have a list with 500 bugs on it and everyone is complaining about the bugs - if they release a point update which has 50 of those bugs fixed everyone will still complain about the 450 bugs still existing. So they fix the next fifty bugs only to find that in the process they've recreated some of the first 50 fixed bugs. That does not strike me as a very sensible way to operate.
I'm not saying I'm right and you are wrong - I'm just saying that this seems to me like the most likely reason they do what they do - rather than it being a sign that they don't care.
Re putting your elbows out - I can fully relate to the frustration that would make you want to put your elbows out - I just don't see that it makes any difference. Caligari must operate in the way that is most cost effective for them or their accountants will stick their elbows out far more effectively than you or I can! If it was more efficient to release 6 small updates a year rather than 1 big update wouldn't they do it that way?
How true. But there is a time where constructive criticism doesn't help anymore. By the way, how much bugs did you report? ;)If constructive criticism doesn't work how can destructive criticism help any better?
LOL - How many bugs did I report? Fair question - not as many as you did that's for sure! Due to my feedback Caligari has become aware of at least two bugs to my certain knowledge and possibly more. The first bug relates to the limb symmetry being reversed and the second is to do with the additional dx9 shader information included in tS7.5 .COB file exports - it's my understanding that both these issues have been addressed and will be fixed in the next release. I certainly hope so;) |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 5, 2008, 3:37pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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3 Wizard (99% of who's opinions I usually seem to agree with) I disagree with you on the topic of bugs. I can't see any benefit struggling to find what I am doing wrong within a program, thus wasting my own creative time, when if I had checked for reported bugs early, it may have been a bug all the time?
IK
LOL - That does not surprise me Igor - it's probably not a particularly sensible way to operate but it works for me and I imagine a lot of folk will disagree with it Scanning through miles of bug reports to find the relevant one will only tell me what I've already figured out - that the program is not operating as it should.
Being a problem solver by nature I'm interested in finding a solution that will allow me to produce a final artwork that is as close to my mental vision as possible. If I've already found that I can't get the results I want one way (either due to bugs or to user error) then my time is better spent looking for the best alternative method to getting as close to my vision as possible.
More often than not, if it's a well known bug, I'll mention it in passing on the forum (or someone else will) prompting someone else to point out it's a known problem - in the meantime I've moved on to getting the best finished product I can from the equipment I have at my disposal.
The benefit of this approach is that I tend to think about trueSpace in terms of what it allows me to do rather that what it won't do. |
Post by Steinie // Apr 5, 2008, 4:14pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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In another Thread I listed the "buggy" software versions of trueSpace through the years that I and others suffered with. Working on a project for a half hour and all of a sudden poof all your work is gone because I didn't save. (Since trueSpace didn't have an automatic save function). How about the "Habit" of saving before a boolean operation? Sweating bullets when I would Point edit which felt like defusing a roadside bomb. Did I loose work 1000 times? 2000 times? Yet I remained because with trueSpace's interface and it's real time environment it offered feedback like no other 3D App.
I cursed trueSpace through the years more then I raved about it. The nagging bugs would sometime remain from version to version. Over and over new users would ask when these would get fixed. You would have to be blind not to know about the faulty Bone system. The buggy PE. The buggy Boolean.
Yet I remained. Hoping the next version would address them.
TrueSpace 7.0 was a ground up build based on brand new code. Any bugs introduced should have been fixed before adding another drop of new code. Why...? because of their History! They have to end this endless cycle of buggy software if they are to succeed. Pay a visit to other Forums and find old users of this software, find out their thought on why they left. They were just as passionate about trueSpace as us. Yet they moved on.
Sure we can use trueSpace to create awesome works but was the trip enjoyable? To some it doesn't matter what hoops you need to jump through.
Maybe your not using a part of the Software others find useless. Your trip is smooth and theirs is dreadful.
TrueSpace 7.6 will be the measuring stick for me on how much effort they gave to squashing bugs. Heck they made us wait right?
Negative attitude? I think a lot of us have earned the right. (and payed for it too) |
Post by RAYMAN // Apr 5, 2008, 4:27pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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This is the inofficial TS 7.6 features site but dont tell !!! ......
http://www.insectsinternational.com/ |
Post by Steinie // Apr 5, 2008, 4:31pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Well at least Caligari doesn't make Blattaria:rolleyes: |
Post by RAYMAN // Apr 5, 2008, 4:41pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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The problem next to always boils down to beta testing and
not enough input coming back ! Maybe there should be a
public beta with timelimit !;)
Peter |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 5, 2008, 9:04pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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In another Thread I listed the "buggy" software versions of trueSpace through the years that I and others suffered with. Working on a project for a half hour and all of a sudden poof all your work is gone because I didn't save. (Since trueSpace didn't have an automatic save function). How about the "Habit" of saving before a boolean operation? Sweating bullets when I would Point edit which felt like defusing a roadside bomb. Did I loose work 1000 times? 2000 times? Yet I remained because with trueSpace's interface and it's real time environment it offered feedback like no other 3D App.
I cursed trueSpace through the years more then I raved about it. The nagging bugs would sometime remain from version to version. Over and over new users would ask when these would get fixed. You would have to be blind not to know about the faulty Bone system. The buggy PE. The buggy Boolean.
Yet I remained. Hoping the next version would address them.
TrueSpace 7.0 was a ground up build based on brand new code. Any bugs introduced should have been fixed before adding another drop of new code. Why...? because of their History! They have to end this endless cycle of buggy software if they are to succeed. Pay a visit to other Forums and find old users of this software, find out their thought on why they left. They were just as passionate about trueSpace as us. Yet they moved on.
Sure we can use trueSpace to create awesome works but was the trip enjoyable? To some it doesn't matter what hoops you need to jump through.
Maybe your not using a part of the Software others find useless. Your trip is smooth and theirs is dreadful.
TrueSpace 7.6 will be the measuring stick for me on how much effort they gave to squashing bugs. Heck they made us wait right?
Negative attitude? I think a lot of us have earned the right. (and payed for it too)
Well said Steinie - This has also been my experience with trueSpace since I started with 3.2. Using tS 5.x and 6.6 I got into the habit of of going AltF, S, S, to save my scenes every 10 minutes or so and prior to any boolean operations. This very simple step instantly made using earlier tS versions far more enjoyable and does not strike me as "jumping through hoops".
Additionally I always did new modeling on a new layer or a new scene to prevent the loss of work from the inevitable crashes. The use of such simple strategies and modeling practices should probably not be necessary but they certainly are easy to learn and made using tS far more enjoyable.
Nor did these practices make the bones work any better but they helped to keep frustration levels down.
I was most frustrated when the simple AltF,S S, keyboard action didn't work in tS7.x and I was forced to open the library stack, select the scene library and scroll to the scene and replace it. I was most frustrated when I found that the library view does not stay were I left it either, meaning it resets to the first scenes compelling me to scroll down again and again when I want to save.
Fortunately both tS 7.5 model side and workspace are far more stable than earlier versions suggesting that whilst tS moves forward 3 steps and slips back 2 steps, with each release it is making definite progress - which challenges the assertion that they don't fix bugs.
I don't have a problem with people venting their frustrations - I've done that more than once myself. I don't have a problem with people discussing some of the areas where tS can be problematic - I also do this. My problem is with inflated and misleading descriptions and unfounded opinions being expressed as fact.
If someone was making exaggerated positive claims that were untrue I would challenge them - :rolleyes:"trueSpace 5.2's bone system is amongst the best on the market" - yeah right:rolleyes:
It has been said that tS bones don't work and that Caligari's methods of bug fixing indicates that Caligari does not care. These statements are unsupportable and inaccurate and give a misleading impression - and that's something I have a problem with.
Steinie you may be right that folk here have paid for and earned the right to a negative attitude - but I've yet to see any situation where an exaggerated positive or negative attitude achieved a positive result.
To quote Randy Jackson, "Just keepin' it real, dog!"
Finally, if someone does want to rant and rave (as is their right) they are free to do so in the Rants and Raves forum |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 5, 2008, 9:39pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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It feels to me that "crash" type bugs have been given a very high priority. I started to noticed that in the transition from 7.1 to 7.5. If you're are working in working in workspace, crashes are very rare (please report it if you get one!). That's a huge change over previous versions.
In fact I'd say that I can't remember the last time that TS crashed on me while I was working on a project. A lot of times now because the undo system is so much better, I forget to save what I'm working on until I finish or have to stop for the day. That's night and day compared to older versions.
My guess is that once the rush of moving the tools over to the new architecture is complete, that the remaining lower priority bugs will get quashed fairly quickly and updates might well be released more quickly as well. Keep in mind that until 8.0 gets here, Caligari is very much still in transition to the new architecture.
Also it doesn't hurt to remind Caligari (and the beta testers) about older bugs every few months, just bump the old thread or start a new one to make it easier to find. Video of the bug tends to work best and makes it easier for the developers to understand the problem.
Obviously things get talked about more if they have more impact on the userbase and will likely get fixed before other things that users don't complain or talk about. So if you see someone post about a bug that also affects you, post a "me too" post so that Caligari can get a better feel for the number of users affected by the problem. Don't forget that Paul is there at Tech Support and users can contact him with their problems as well. ;) Phone and e-mail support is offered directly by Caligari for all it's customers. |
Post by Tiles // Apr 5, 2008, 10:51pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Say they have a list with 500 bugs on it and everyone is complaining about the bugs - if they release a point update which has 50 of those bugs fixed everyone will still complain about the 450 bugs still existing. So they fix the next fifty bugs only to find that in the process they've recreated some of the first 50 fixed bugs. That does not strike me as a very sensible way to operate.
Err? Where's the sense here? This is the biggest nonsense i ever heard. A fixed bug is a fixed bug. Fixing Bugs is NOT recreating others. At least not in the first place. Accidents happens, but i would give up making games when it would happen to me permanently while fixing my bugs. It's one of thousand fortunately. Sorry to destroy your statistics ;)
With a bugfix that fixes 50 bugs there would be at least 50 bugs less to battle with. Which means that the one or another project could be finished where it was impossible because of those 50 bugs. And there would be the hope that the next bugfix fixes 50 more. Which makes the software useable over the time. I would give my right hand, err, better not ... ;)
What is fantastic in this context is that we talk about hundrets of bugs here for a Full version. Normally you talk about a few up to a few dozens in a Beta version. Caligari even managed to have customers for that. This is unique in the whole world.
As it is now i am able to produce this with 7.51 because of the bugs (I told you i have tried):
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/tsresult.jpg
And this lasts since one year now. For a software i have paid for.
Frustrated? You can bet your ass that I AM PISSED! For good reason. Others have simply left. I am still here and complain.
10 bugs less at the right areas in the bones system and i could at least use that feature. 10 Bugs less in the tools for displacement and i could at least use that feature. But i cannot even use that. Because bugfixes comes with the next version, if even.
And what do you mean with a point upgrade here? I talk about bugfixes. Bugfixes for the simplest and most basic things that are broken in 7.51. Not implementing new features with even more bugs.
Caligari must operate in the way that is ...
Ah, please, Caligari is not god. I think i told you that before.
The way Caligari operates has cost hundrets of formerly loyal users and has leaded to Microsoft buying Caligari. That for the way Caligari operates.
Let's do some simple math. Let's develop 20 tools where 15 are too buggy to work with. Let's stop bugfixing but just develop new tools. Then throw in 10 more tools after a year where 5 are too buggy to work with, and fix 5 of the older buggy tools. You have how many working tools then? Correct, 15. Plus lots of unsatisfied customers.
Now let's develop 20 Tools where 15 are too buggy to work with, but don't stop bugfixing until the 15 buggy tools work as thougth. Let's deliver two bugfixes for that every 4 months. Then throw in just 5 more after a year, where 3 are not working. Because fixing the bugs has cost a bit more time. How much working tools do you have now? Correct, 22. And satisfied customers.
Now let's finally look at the users end for both business models. For the first case the user can definitely produce less content because there are more features broken. And he can even use the fixed features much later.
So which way is the better one?
Caligari chooses the first way since years. I definitely choose the second way when programming my games. I try to do it even better. Because i take care that i develop 20 features that works. But yeah, i am just a hobbyist ...
Wizard, i see that any further discussion with you makes definitely no sense. We are too apart. No matter what i say you will defeat Caligari, ignoring all arguments. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 6, 2008, 12:43am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Err? Where's the sense here? This is the biggest nonsense i ever heard. A fixed bug is a fixed bug. Fixing Bugs is NOT recreating others. At least not in the first place. Accidents happens, but i would give up making games when it would happen to me permanently while fixing my bugs. It's one of thousand fortunately. Sorry to destroy your statistics ;)No problem - as I said I'm no expert on bugs. I base my suggestion on years of installing and repairing large Telecom cables. If you have a few faults in a 500 circuit cable junction you dig up the cable, open the joint sleeve and repair each and every fault - you do not close up the joint until you have tested and cleared every earth, short and battery contact. In addition you identify why the first few faults occurred and rebuild the joint to prevent further occurrences.
Yes I could fix the fault that is affecting your phone line and then wrap up the joint without testing it fully but the chances are good that I'll be digging the junction up again next week - this is totally ineffective from a costing point of view.
I don't know if the metaphor is relevant but that's what I base it on. Hopefully that helps you to understand why I say what I say - it's not intended as an 'I'm right/you're wrong' thing.
With a bugfix that fixes 50 bugs there would be at least 50 bugs less to battle with. Which means that the one or another project could be finished where it was impossible because of those 50 bugs. And there would be the hope that the next bugfix fixes 50 more. Which makes the software useable over the time. I would give my right hand, err, better not ... ;)
What is fantastic in this context is that we talk about hundrets of bugs here for a Full version. Normally you talk about a few up to a few dozens in a Beta version. Caligari even managed to have customers for that. This is unique in the whole world.It may be unique in your experience Tiles but it's not in mine. I base this on working in a call centre with 3.2 million customers and a Customer account application with literally thousands of bugs. I'm not saying you're wrong, or that Caligari is providing bug free product when they are not - I am reporting from my direct personal experience. Your point however is, as I've said elsewhere, quite valid.
As it is now i am able to produce this with 7.51 because of the bugs (I told you i have tried):
http://reinerstileset.4players.de/ext/tsresult.jpgIf that is all you are able to produce after a year I'm not surprised you are pissed. This (http://www.caligari.com/Gallery/Animations/2008/feb/anim/3550.wmv) is what I was able to produce in a comparable time (Caution 15MB download). If you watch that animation you might start to see why I struggle to accept your blanket statements that tS does not work.
Ah, please, Caligari is not god. I think i told you that before..I never said they were god. I'm not sure where you get that from. I do however think they would need to possess godlike powers to be able to ignore the use of cost effective processes. I can't prove that releasing an upgrade with 100 bug fixes is more cost effective than releasing 5 patches with 20 bug fixes each but I cannot think of a single logical other reason for doing so.
The way Caligari operates has cost hundrets of formerly loyal users and has leaded to Microsoft buying Caligari. That for the way Caligari operates.Is it? How do you know that Caligaris operating methods have cost hundreds of formerly loyal users? I suspect that people who did not like the way Caligari operates may well have left for exactly the reason you suggest and I certainly don't know that this has lead to the Microsoft purchase. Perhaps you have access to information the rest of us don't. If so then please share.
Let's do some simple math. Let's develop 20 tools where 15 are too buggy to work with. Let's stop bugfixing but just develop new tools. Then throw in 10 more tools after a year where 5 are too buggy to work with, and fix 5 of the older buggy tools. You have how many working tools then? Correct, 15. Plus lots of unsatisfied customers.
Now let's develop 20 Tools where 15 are too buggy to work with, but don't stop bugfixing until the 15 buggy tools work as thougth. Let's deliver two bugfixes for that every 4 months. Then throw in just 5 more after a year, where 3 are not working. Because fixing the bugs has cost a bit more time. How much working tools do you have now? Correct, 22. And satisfied customers.
Now let's finally look at the users end for both business models. For the first case the user can definitely produce less content because there are more features broken. And he can even use the fixed features much later.
So which way is the better one?Sure Tiles - I don't have any problem with this - you make a perfectly good point here. But it seems beside the point to me - Caligari must have a sound reason for operating the way they do with regard to bug fixes, otherwise they would do it some other way. I don't know why they do it this way (although I can take some educated guesses) and, unless you have access to information we don't, you're guessing as much as I am.
Caligari chooses the first way since years. I definitely choose the second way when programming my games. I try to do it even better. Because i take care that i develop 20 features that works. But yeah, i am just a hobbyist ..This sounds like a fair point Tiles - I know nothing at all about making games and I am assuming from what you say that writing and bug fixing a game is the same as writing and bug fixing a software application like trueSpace.
Wizard, i see that any further discussion with you makes definitely no sense. We are too apart. No matter what i say you will defeat Caligari, ignoring all arguments.
I believe we are quite similar (we are surely equally as passionate!;))and that you sometimes prefer emotive and dramatic exaggeration to make some of your points. If you truly believe that I will defend Caligari ignoring all arguments than you have not been reading my posts very well. As I've said before and will continue to say, I am not defending Caligari I am defending fair play.
If you wish to end our discussion I'm cool with that. Thanks for taking the time to share your point of view. |
Post by Tiles // Apr 6, 2008, 1:32am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Sorry, couldn't resist to answer, even when i declared the discussion as closed. There are unanswerded questions:
Is it? How do you know that Caligaris operating methods have cost hundreds of formerly loyal users?
Because the german trueSpace community not longer exists, which i was part of. And i have talked to enough of them to know that it was because of the bugs. Over 400 are gone. And they don't come back.
That didn't just happen to the german community from what i can read in more than one forum across the world. Always a joy to listen to Ex - TS users there ... keep your hands away ... not worth the money ... disaster ... joke ... :)
... large Telecom cables. ...
... are not comparable with software development. Not in the way you do here. Well, yeah, maybe when you think about your told example as one bug. Besides that, you have to fix a cable when a customer isn't longer able to do a phone call, don't you? And don't tell me that you wait a year until several hundret telecom cables are broken so that it is more cost effective.
But that is what Caligari is doing here. No bugfixes. They wait a year ...
Again, what is more cost effective, loosing hundrets of customers because of no bugfixes or spend the time to create those bugfixes and hold these customers that pays your bills?
Caligari must have a sound reason for operating the way they do with regard to bug fixes
They have. It costs time and manpower to deliver bugfixes. Time that misses at the development end. So at the first look it sounds cheaper.
But the fact that hundrets of users have left, and the fact that Caligari is now bought by Microsoft shows that this is the wrong strategy. Unfortunately there still seems to be no way to convince Caligari about it. Even after the disaster.
And before you ask, i would loosing masses of customers and being bought by another company pretty well call a disaster.
If that is all you are able to produce after a year I'm not surprised you are pissed. This is what I was able to produce in a comparable time (Caution 15MB download). If you watch that animation you might start to see why I struggle to accept your blanket statements that tS does not work.
Nice movie. I haven't watched it the first time :)
But have a look at the caligari gallery. I pretty well know how to model, texture, rig and animate. You can also just report bugs when you touch the stuff you report bugs about. Nope, it is not because of lack of knowledge here that i cannot get something useful out of TS 7.5, definitely not.
I wasn't able to create something useful because i always ended in making a screenshot and reporting a bug when i touched the workspace. And doing the job in TS 6.6 then. Provable in the bugs section in around 60 cases. Not all of them have stopped me from what i wanted to do. But enough of them did, up to the point where enough was enough, and where i finally uninstalled 7.5. Which i don't regret.
What i see is that you might have found enough workarounds to bring it at least somehow to work. And that you are patient enough to live with the current masses of bugs. Fine :)
I haven't found all of those workarounds though. I still know of no workaround for too much of my reported bugs. And a workaround is no valid bugfix anyways. |
Post by splinters // Apr 6, 2008, 2:21am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Completely at a tangent (sort of). I am not a Beta tester but I have tS7.6 for UI checking, that is no secret. I am impressed with it. I spent hours last night playing with it and never, not once, moved to model side.
I can't say any more than that...but bear in mind that I am a staunch model side user...:rolleyes:
Never crashed for me...but then again neither did 7.51 workspace. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 6, 2008, 2:37am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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They have. It costs time and manpower to deliver bugfixes. Time that misses at the development end. So at the first look it sounds cheaper.
But the fact that hundrets of users have left, and the fact that Caligari is now bought by Microsoft shows that this is the wrong strategy. Unfortunately there still seems to be no way to convince Caligari about it. Even after the disaster.
And before you ask, i would loosing masses of customers and being bought by another company pretty well call a disaster.Well I have to say Tiles you argue a good case. I do however have to wonder if 400 German users have left - which it appears they have - how many new users have come in their place? trueSpacers I know of who have moved on have done so for many reasons - including the ones you raise but also including lack of advanced features and lack of (Movie and TV) industry credibility.
Again you do it. Again you try to imply that it is because i lack of knowledge. It simply is not as you may notice when you have a look at the caligari gallery. I pretty well know how to model, texture, rig and animate. You can also just report bugs when you touch the stuff you report bugs about. Nope, it is not because of lack of knowledge here, definitely not.
Please understand that I mean no insult Tiles. If I had good reason to think you lacked knowledge I would simply say so. I have no reason to believe that and as you say, the ability to detect so many bugs clearly indicates you have considerable knowledge.
My problem is this - you say the bones don't work and show me black renders - I show you clear evidence that the bones do work and that it's possible to do reasonable work with them. It's like you are saying the sky is green when I can see it is blue. You are clearly a knowledgeable and educated person with good reason to say the things you say - I simply wish to understand them because they are so different to my experience.
I wasn't able to create something useful because i always ended in making a screenshot and reporting a bug when i touched the workspace. And doing the job in TS 6.6 then. Provable in the bugs section in around 60 cases. Not all of them have stopped me from what i wanted to do. But enough of them did, up to the point where enough was enough, and where i finally uninstalled 7.5. Which i don't regret.See this is very difficult for me to understand - I find the model side of tS to be far more stable than 6.6 - renders faster too. I don't think I've ever crashed the workspace side and I would never go back to 6.6 because it's my experience that tS 7.5 is, whilst still buggy in places, a far superior piece of software. This is hard for me to reconcile with the things you say.
What i see is that you might have found enough workarounds to bring it at least somehow to work. And that you are patient enough to live with the current masses of bugs. Fine :)
I haven't found all of those workarounds though. I still know of no workaround for too much of my reported bugs. And a workaround is no valid bugfix anyways.
I suspect that we are looking for very different results from the application particularly if you are into game development. I like making complex static images and animations and, whilst it's not always easy and can often be challenging, I usually get something like the result I wanted eventually.
I guess we'll both just have to hope the next release fits our needs - like everyone else:D |
Post by Tiles // Apr 6, 2008, 2:38am
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Sorry for the changings Wizard. I did edit it while you wrote your answer it seems.
As for using 6.6 over Modelside, one reason are the problems with Motion Studio and the old Bones System. Another reason is LUUV. Newest Version doesn't work with Modelside. I just start one App with 6.6. Reacts faster, acts nicer. I can double click at a value in the Object Info Box to mark a value in 6.6. In Modeler i have to dragselect the value, which is not always sucessful with the first try, and so slower and more complicated. May sound nit picking, but i use these values very often. I rarely render pictures. I make games, not stills. Spriterendering is a bit different from stills. I have a bit more space in 6.6. Plus a few other small things. Yeah, for me 6.6 is simply better than Modeler :)
By the way, it was this bug that finally stopped me from going on using the new bones system. No working default pose means no working rig. And no workaround available that i know of:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3584&highlight=default+pose
And yes, i really hope for the next release. I need a working state of the art bones system this year.
Splinters. I would prefer crashes over non working features :D |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 6, 2008, 2:44am
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Sorry for the changings Wizard. I did edit it while you wrote your answer it seems.
:D
No problem Tiles - I guessed that must have happened - glad you liked my little movie, I'm working on part two at the moment. |
Post by Steinie // Apr 6, 2008, 4:18am
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I have a question about the Beta process. How do you all approach your testing?
Do you test new features and as you test bugs are found and reported?
Do you test for bugs first and features second?
Do you stress test the application, imputting unlikely settings/numbers, taking unusual paths through the app to see if you can break it?
How do you approach regression testing? |
Post by KeithC // Apr 6, 2008, 4:55am
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As for myself; I'm messing about with 7.6 while we wait for word on GameSpace 2 (the reason I was asked to join the Team originally). Mostly what I do is go about my daily modeling/texturing/rendering as I normally would; but in doing so, I keep an eye out for situations that normally would have caused a crash before. I am pretty minor when it comes to testing; others are FAR more in depth.
Sometimes I read the dialogue going back and forth between testers and realize that I am a ways away from catching up to all the new features and fixes. I've occassionally posted a bug that was already accounted for as well. I've only recently come into more time to help test.
I'm starting up some barebones work on a few temporary game media pieces; going through that process will help me learn the new TS, as well as supply the developers with any related bug information.
So; to answer your question, my way of testing is to go about my normal activities....while noting down anything that's broken, or that works where it previously did not. Make sense? :)
-Keith |
Post by RAYMAN // Apr 6, 2008, 6:36am
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There´s a crux with this beta testing ....
It´s pretty much limited to the few mashines
the beta testers have. While when released its
letting go the beast onto many more computers
and setups. I know of Moi3d beta testing... when you
buy Version 1 you can automaticaly be a beta tester
for the upcoming betas for version 2.
That way the producer of the software gets lots more
of feedback and quirks can be ironed out pretty soon
while the product is developed !
I´m afraid that the way things are going now
we will never see stable releases.... the teams just to small...
and if you look at what Splinters says about the hair tool......
the developed tools dont cut it either.Why didnt Splinters say that a year ago?
He says he has the latest releases!:confused:
Peter |
Post by KeithC // Apr 6, 2008, 6:44am
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I know that NewTek invites all current version users to Beta test the latest LW. |
Post by Emma // Apr 6, 2008, 7:03am
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have a question about the Beta process. How do you all approach your testing?
If this is done by professionals I would think the main points will look as this:
- Betatesting means you have a status reporting system for errors where you register every error that appears
- every error will be tested with new versions until it's solved and then the error status gets reset
- All Betatesters have some very special scenerys or objects they will check with every new Beta version
- they all will be specialised for a theme but quite a few will test additionally in other areas, why, of course to work the unexpected way and so find errors
- there will always be a look into the public forum to check which errors are reported there and they will be taken over into the beta status report
Every company working in software development will have to use something like this and I have no doubt that this will be different with Caligari. Softwaredevelopment always will produce errors, there is no way to program error free.
Anyway, complainig is OK and necessary, but be fair and don't expect a company like Caligari to have the man power of one of the global big players. And to be serious, those big ones also don't always work that perfect. |
Post by splinters // Apr 6, 2008, 7:12am
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...if you look at what Splinters says about the hair tool......
the developed tools dont cut it either.Why didnt Splinters say that a year ago?
He says he has the latest releases!:confused:
Peter
Peter, it is quite rude of you to presume so much.
1. How do you know I did not say 'that' a year ago? Caligari do not hang off my every word...:o
2. I get latest release to check UI; I am not a Beta tester, as I already said, and therefore I do not discuss with other Beta testers.
Do you really think I would start berating the hair tools if I had a chance to change them when I was in Beta and did nothing?
Please, voice your opinion by all means, but don't assume so much. I never talk about the details of my time on Beta team nor do I discuss the Beta releases.
My opinions here are always those of a current 7.51 owner.
Emma, NDA would permit Beta testers from discussing details of testing so I wouldn't be too offended if no one explains.. |
Post by RAYMAN // Apr 6, 2008, 7:13am
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There´s another point.... some are no bugs but user errors...
well those are important for development too !
Those show that software in some places is not intuitive enough.
I find the way Newtek handles these very good and
I dont want to hold in the dark that I am one of these who use
the latest Lightwave too !
Get your latest developments out to the people before its old !;)
Peter |
Post by RAYMAN // Apr 6, 2008, 7:19am
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Peter, it is quite rude of you to presume so much.
Well I´m not intending to be rude just want to understand why you
have betas and dont voice your thoughts while things are in beta !
Ok your not a beta tester but a year after release is pretty long time ?!
Does Caligari not listen to you ?
You must admit its not very logical !;)
Peter |
Post by splinters // Apr 6, 2008, 7:22am
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Splinters. I would prefer crashes over non working features :D
Sorry Tiles, I read comments like this;
"I wasn't able to create something useful because i always ended in making a screenshot and reporting a bug when i touched the workspace. And doing the job in TS 6.6 then. Provable in the bugs section in around 60 cases. Not all of them have stopped me from what i wanted to do. But enough of them did, up to the point where enough was enough, and where i finally uninstalled 7.5. Which i don't regret.
What i see is that you might have found enough workarounds to bring it at least somehow to work. And that you are patient enough to live with the current masses of bugs. Fine
I haven't found all of those workarounds though. I still know of no workaround for too much of my reported bugs. And a workaround is no valid bugfix anyways."
and presumed you meant bugs that cause crashes. What is a bug? What is a crash?
My point was simply that I find 7.51 workspace pretty stable. |
Post by jamesmc // Apr 6, 2008, 7:36am
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Tiles can you send me your file of the black screen, I've been trying to duplicate that for years. :D |
Post by splinters // Apr 6, 2008, 7:40am
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Total Posts: 4148
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Does Caligari not listen to you ?
Only when I stamp my feet a lot and ask for money...;):D:D |
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