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Future Fighter
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Future Fighter // Work in Progress
Post by Breech Block // Jan 31, 2009, 10:51am
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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Well I think I may be getting somewhere with the Jeep animation. I think all the correct movement is in there, its just the timing that is all wrong. I think the problem is that when you get trueSpace to play the scene, it does not do it in real time, it just plays it as fast as it can draw it. Consquently when you render out, there is a slight difference in the speed of things. But, like I said, I think the actual physical position of everthing is okay, I just need to slide some of the keyframes up/down the timeline to alter the speed of things.
I'm also experimenting with a new lighting set up to try and get some more detail out of the interior of the jeeps.
All this trouble and it will probably be all lost in a cloud of dust/smoke/fire anyway.:o
Anyhows, here is a piccie of the new scene and the movie itself is below it in a compressed DivX file. |
Post by robert // Jan 31, 2009, 2:17pm
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robert
Total Posts: 609
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It looks good.
The jeep that stands up though, it does it for just too short a time making it look lighter than I would presume.
You planning on crumpling these at all? Because that would decrease momentum. |
Post by Breech Block // Jan 31, 2009, 9:29pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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Thanks robert, I will see what I can do to get it to appear the right weight. Not being able to run in real time is an absoloute pain. No crumples I'm afraid. The reason being is I don't think anybody would notice once all the smoke, dust, flame and debri have been added to the scene as well. |
Post by robert // Feb 1, 2009, 4:48am
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robert
Total Posts: 609
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Yeah, either it's too fast, like I said earlier, or too slow. If you speed it up some it could work too.
It may actually be better to speed it up so it matches the other jeep. |
Post by Breech Block // Feb 2, 2009, 2:03am
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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Well I managed to get the animation down pat and am now moving on to the more exciting part of the scene, adding all the particle generators. First up is the shockwave that will be blown out at a great rate of knots. The more difficult part, the part I'm struggling with now, is trying to creating the right kind of environment now that initial blast is over. |
Post by robert // Feb 2, 2009, 12:31pm
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robert
Total Posts: 609
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Yeah, everything is rather loose, that is quite problematic.
So far though your projects have generally worked out after a bit of tweaking.
I don't see why this one should be any different. ;) |
Post by theuns // Feb 6, 2009, 11:02pm
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theuns
Total Posts: 519
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Coming along very nicely Breech, very inspiring, makes me wan to fiddle particles and physicsims ;) ... so for the particles you use primitives with good alpha maps? |
Post by marcel // Feb 6, 2009, 11:24pm
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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You have the same problem with the background than "Strange Discoveries". ;)
You can not have the sky under the red line. |
Post by Breech Block // Feb 7, 2009, 2:25pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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Coming along very nicely Breech, very inspiring, makes me wan to fiddle particles and physicsims ;) ... so for the particles you use primitives with good alpha maps?
Thanks very much theuns. To answer your question...err...yes and no. Let me work up some screen grabs and that will allow me to explain better.
You have the same problem with the background than "Strange Discoveries". You can not have the sky under the red line.
Thanks again, marcel. Y'know I had it there originally (horizon higher (see page 6)) but for some reason changed it. Can't for the life of me remember why. Damned memory - I think i need an upgrade. :D
You can not have the sky under the red line.
Hey! Didn't Chicken Little say that once? :D:D:D |
Post by Finis // Feb 7, 2009, 2:49pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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makes me wan to fiddle particles
Me too.
Great work Breech Block. How long will the finished animation be?
Marcel - I see how the converging lines in Strange Discoveries determine where the horizon is but I don't see what is so special about the red line in this one. How did you decide that the line is the correct place for the horizon? |
Post by Breech Block // Feb 7, 2009, 3:02pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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Great work Breech Block. How long will the finished animation be??
Thanks Finis. Now that Caligari have upped the file size submission for the gallery I reckon about 4 1/2 minutes.
Marcel - I see how the converging lines in Strange Discoveries determine where the horizon is but I don't see what is so special about the red line in this one. How did you decide that the line is the correct place for the horizon?
As I understand it, because you can not see the top of the bunker's roof, you eyeline must be the same height/just below it. However, if the bunker is placed on high ground, which being a radar station it would be, I don't know it that would effect the horizon line. I guess it would. |
Post by marcel // Feb 7, 2009, 11:37pm
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marcel
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Marcel - I see how the converging lines in Strange Discoveries determine where the horizon is but I don't see what is so special about the red line in this one. How did you decide that the line is the correct place for the horizon?
It is exactly the same method. But the point is not in the picture. ;)
It would be nice to have a function in TS to show the infinite horizon. |
Post by Finis // Feb 8, 2009, 6:58am
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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Thanks Marcel. It is clear now why the horizon should be there.
Everyone, remember Breech Block's airplanes that are part of this. Focus has been on the bunker lately. There will surely be extra awesome plane scenes, missile launch, boom! |
Post by GraySho // Feb 8, 2009, 12:06pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Interesting project. I should have seen that one before. I have done a very similar project (that I´ve never finished of course) with my (also unfinished :D) A10 Warthog. I was playing with primal particles fx, which is free now, and got some nice results for explosions. Keep it up. |
Post by Breech Block // Feb 8, 2009, 4:10pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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Everyone, remember Breech Block's airplanes that are part of this. Focus has been on the bunker lately. There will surely be extra awesome plane scenes, missile launch, boom!
Thanks Finis.:) So, no pressure then! :D
Interesting project. I should have seen that one before. I have done a very similar project (that I´ve never finished of course) with my (also unfinished ) A10 Warthog. I was playing with primal particles fx, which is free now, and got some nice results for explosions. Keep it up.
Cheers, GreySho. I remember your Warthog model, very cool. Would love to see that finished off and in a litle animation. Mmm, Primal Particles...guess I should have a look see. |
Post by Breech Block // Feb 10, 2009, 8:25pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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Coming along very nicely Breech, very inspiring, makes me wan to fiddle particles and physicsims ;) ... so for the particles you use primitives with good alpha maps?
The comments below relate entirely to model side as I'm not quite brave enough to venture over the bridge to workspace just yet.
The one thing I have really learnt over the last few weeks playing about with tS's particle system is that whilst it is fairly easy to use (once you understand the terminology used), it is something else to get it to look good. IMO, there is nothing worse than watching an animation where you can clearly tell a SFX is just a load of streaming particles. In this day an age, it looks a bit naff to see a beautifully rendered starcruiser brew up into 100 or so perfectly formed triangles.
Trueparticles is pretty good at doing all the basics like creating muzzle flashes or ejected shell casings etc; in fact anything that requires a hard edge: water, debris, asteroid, you name it. But, when it comes to SFX such as fire, smoke and explosions it is a bit more limited. To pull these type of effects off, you really need to try and disguise the fact your effect is particle based and hide all those hard edges.
All the problems I am facing at the moment in my Future Fighter project are due entirely to fact that after I have set up my generator and got the particles streaming just so, I'm forced to make a compromise on how they will look when rendered.
You see some particle types in tS do not allow you to apply a texture map/mask on to the objects face. So, if you need soft edges, you are restricted to what particle types you can use. In addition, the particles that do allow you to paint the face are often the ones that have to face the camera in order to work and thus you are unable to use the spin controls. If you use a custom object, is doesn't seem to like the transparency shader and you get some really weird effects (or at least I do). So, when it comes to fire, smoke and explosions, IMO you need to mask the edges of the particle so you get a nice soft looking shape, but this means more often than not you will not be able to rotate the particle to get that nice broiling effect. A set of good quality, animated textures would stand you in good stead here.
The three images below are all of the exact same particle generator making a smoke plume and all using the same smoke texture. The only difference is the particle type used and that in the the last image, the texture has a trasparency map applied.
HTH |
Post by kena // Feb 10, 2009, 9:18pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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The transparency texture makes it for sure. |
Post by theuns // Feb 11, 2009, 12:19am
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theuns
Total Posts: 519
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HUGE difference... a bit more tweaking and it could look very nice as is :)
Have you experimented with horizontally expanding particles? Like a donut shape expanding for the shock wave? (sorry if you have and I've missed it) |
Post by marcel // Feb 11, 2009, 12:51am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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If it is a missile, smoke should not extend as far and should be less dark. |
Post by Finis // Feb 11, 2009, 5:25am
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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If trueParticles doesn't work or seems too difficult try other particle systems. Primal Particles maybe. I don't which ones are good but if one isn't good for smoke maybe another is. |
Post by kena // Feb 11, 2009, 6:18am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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Agusto/Prodigy did a space shuttle using planes for smoke... do a search and I'm sure you will find the post where he explained how he did it. |
Post by Breech Block // Feb 11, 2009, 8:29pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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HUGE difference... a bit more tweaking and it could look very nice as is :)
Have you experimented with horizontally expanding particles? Like a donut shape expanding for the shock wave? (sorry if you have and I've missed it)
Thanks theuns, but that was something I just threw together in about 30 seconds to help illustrate my point. Anyone looking to make smoke should note you get some quite good results when you factor in wind and gravity.
I read a tutorial where they used a donut shape for making a shockwave but I was never happy with the results I got. More than likely because my camera is to close to the building for it to be effective.
If trueParticles doesn't work or seems too difficult try other particle systems. Primal Particles maybe. I don't which ones are good but if one isn't good for smoke maybe another is.
Looks like I might have to. Wish there was a good voxel based system for tS as they rock.
Agusto/Prodigy did a space shuttle using planes for smoke... do a search and I'm sure you will find the post where he explained how he did it.
Yeah, it was for his SMC entry and he used triangles. I just get awful results using them as I cant seem to disguise the edges. Perhaps I need to ramp up the scale. |
Post by theuns // Feb 11, 2009, 8:42pm
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theuns
Total Posts: 519
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I meant using a particle generator with horizonal vectors blowing it outward along the surface... is that what you did with the image below that has the smoke/dust on it?
How about using alph planes and just blowing them appart with a strong vertical wind fan instead of particles??? |
Post by Breech Block // Feb 12, 2009, 7:21pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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... is that what you did with the image below that has the smoke/dust on it?
Err sorry, what image? Don't quite grasp what your saying there theuns.
I think the main problems I am facing are all of my own causing:
1 - There are going to be at least 4 targets in the movie and so I'm trying to get 4 different explosion types.
2 - I'm after a certain stylistic kind of look that falls somewhere between reality and Hollywood.
3 - The Bunker scene will end up with about 7 or 8 generators in if I place in all the FX in that I want. The render times are going through the roof so I'm not keen on adding physics as well.
4 - The particles are now starting to cause artefacts when they intersect each other.
5 - The bunker is in a dip so when I create particles going out a floor level they disapear into the scenery.
6 - Everytime I manage to create a really good effect with a generator, add it to the scene and render it, it completly obliterates the jeeps, which at the moment I'm really keen to keep.
7 - timing all the events to go off in a realistic sequence is proving to be quite a headache.
8 - You really have to render out at HQ to get a good idea if everything is taking shape correctly so that adds a lot of additional delays.
Still, its not all doom and gloom. What I have at the moment already looks half decent. I'm just trying to pin down the effect of a ball of flame coming out of all the windows and then will post what I have so far for comments. Sometime over the weekend hopefully. |
Post by marcel // Feb 13, 2009, 1:04am
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marcel
Total Posts: 569
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The missile have no smoke. it is white vapor. Only dust and smoke from the combustion at the floor when it start. ;) |
Post by robert // Feb 13, 2009, 11:18am
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robert
Total Posts: 609
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Marcel is right, the chemical reaction that launches the missile ejects water and carbon dioxide. The dirt kicked up would be whatever color you're using for that and then if there is fire it would use black smoke.
However, when a missile strikes there initially is not much fire, more dirt and dust and pulverized concrete/plaster from the building.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/IH029800.jpg?size=67&uid={838245AA-F386-4C2F-AB49-D9CE6D1277FC} |
Post by Finis // Feb 13, 2009, 12:57pm
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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4 - The particles are now starting to cause artifacts when they intersect each other.
I'm no layers expert, never used them, but could having each particle generator on its own layer prevent the interaction that creates the artifacts? |
Post by Breech Block // Feb 14, 2009, 5:35pm
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Breech Block
Total Posts: 844
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Thanks for all the help and advice guys. Some nice example pics as well. Wow, that is one heck of an explosion there robert. It is not the effect I'm after as I'm trying for something a bit more subtle as this is only the first target. Gotta save the best till last y'know.:D For this one, I'm trying to go for a more "explosion contained by the building look." However, your photo does show a great example of the height/colour of dust cloud that I'm after. If I could get something similair to that I'd be well happy.
I tried primal particles the other day but did not like its Mickey Mouse interface so got rid of it fairly quickly.
I have never used layers either Finis, it's on my to-do list.:D That wouldn't work either though because I have now found out that colliding particles cause artefacts even when they are from the same generator.
Anyhows, here is my latest test vid. Still to be put in place are the flames shooting out of the main bunkers windows and the smoke/cloud that will follow in the wake of the shockwave. Better debris generation, 5/6 smoke generators, plus a whole ton of minor tweeks to what is already there. |
Post by tahnoak // Feb 15, 2009, 12:48am
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tahnoak
Total Posts: 487
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I can't believe it's been so long since I posted on this project. Looks great Breech and I am certainly learning a lot about trueParticles and infinite horizons :D |
Post by Musikman // May 16, 2009, 3:43pm
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Musikman
Total Posts: 88
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Hey Breech Block,
This thread is a tutorial in itself! :) I think the new users on this forum(including myself) will greatly benefit from following along how this project of yours developed over time. The black fighter plane is awesome! (I like your choice of color btw, definitely very sleek looking!) When I started sifting further through the posts and saw the cockpit, wow, nice ! I'm sure it took alot of patience to detail & texture that! Superbly done! Thanks for taking the time to post image files here, I know it helps me to see the work done in steps as it progresses, and I'm sure everyone else is appreciating the learning experience as well.
Point Editing seems to be what everyone tackles first when learning TS, so us new users can never get enough instruction. It would be nice to find a way to alert especially brand new TS users and immediately direct them to see what they could someday potentially be doing. It is inspiring to look at this kind of modeling, believe me, I know how discouraging it can get when learning modeling, and I expect I'll probably continue to experience that at times, as will most everyone, but to see the rewards of the efforts you've put in here is a reason to not give up! Thanks also for mentioning the planning being important, like myself I would guess most of us tend to be anxious to dive right in, but as you said, good planning saves lots of hours in the long haul. ;) Great job as usual & many thanks!
Best Regards,
Paul |
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