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no truespace?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
no truespace? // Rants and Raves
Post by stan // Mar 8, 2006, 6:34am
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stan
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took a look at the cg talk forum today..what ..we don't even get listed in "application specific[3d]" section but blender does?....a free program??..found a perfect smilie for the occasion.. |
Post by spacekdet // Mar 8, 2006, 7:56am
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When they finally do get around to listing it they'll more than likely spell it "Truespace".... hooray for being elite...or l33t...whatever.
Don't let snubs from snobs get you down. |
Post by GraySho // Mar 8, 2006, 10:02am
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GraySho
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took a look at the cg talk forum today..what ..we don't even get listed in "application specific[3d]" section but blender does?....a free program??..found a perfect smilie for the occasion..
Don't underestimate blender just because it's free. It has tons of features that I wished truespace would have.
I agree that it's sad that trueSpace is not listed. Some guys on those forums don't even know what trueSpace is. |
Post by frank // Mar 8, 2006, 10:39am
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I'm not surprised that trueSpace isn't listed. I'm basing that statement on trueSpace's functionality as compared to other apps.
What does surprise me are things I read like this:
according to the latest Roncarelli Report, trueSpace was named as 'Number 1 in licenses and the world's most widely used 3D application).
Link: http://www.creative-3d.net/newsviewer.cfm?NewsID=639
I do find it odd that it doesn't get mentioned more if it really has sold that many licences.
? |
Post by Délé // Mar 8, 2006, 11:06am
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Délé
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I hate to make this analogy but maybe TS is a bit like John Tesh. While he sells out concerts over and over, hardly anyone will admit they like his music. :confused:
(Just for the record, I'm not a John Tesh fan, but I do like TS) |
Post by stan // Mar 8, 2006, 11:23am
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stan
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snobs and don't forget the truespace defectors ..Spacedek..
GraySho..blender seems powerful..I have it on my system but don't use it..don't like the interface..
all those licences..yes Frank, wasn't there a conversation about that in the old forum..if it goes by how many serial numbers or what?..
John Tesh..eek..hope not Dele....how about Rodney Dangerfield..can't get no respect..:D |
Post by geneg // Mar 8, 2006, 11:25am
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geneg
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hi gang:
Good question.
If you are truely curious as to why there is no trueSpace topic over at CGSociety, then why don't one of you Log In and ask that very question to the Moderators in the General Discusssion area.
It could be as simple as 'No one ever asked for it yet', who knows. Hopefully one of the Moderators will give you an answer.
And before you do, just remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so if there is flack, bad attitudes, or the usual idiotic comments, just take it with a grain of salt and don't take it personally whatever you do. |
Post by splinters // Mar 8, 2006, 12:54pm
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Tried to start a truespace thread on the 3D world magazine forum (much respected UK based specialist 3D magazine)......no one has replied yet..:( |
Post by splinters // Mar 8, 2006, 1:08pm
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splinters
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Strike that last comment. Got a reply on 3D world forum but not necessarily good;
I have Truespace 7 and to be honest I feel its not worth the inflated upgrade price. I nearly sent mine back under the 30 day return policy as what we got was essentialy a Hybrid app. I grudge paying 3 times the upgrade Price for TS66 (an app I already own and have paid for) and a gimmicky Player that displays realtime Directx Shaders and has very few tools.
It still crashes as often as its predessors and the Interface is well... a mess, changing the GUI mode moves all the ICONS about so yoo have to go looking for them again and some are even hidden under other Icon bars.
Sooooo not a happy bunny, It really should not have been released untill ALL the tools were incorporated into the Player side.
I pre-ordered mine so I get the 7.1 upgrade free, but those that did not have to pay for tools that should have been in there at launch and I have heard that the toolset upgrade is not going to be until 7.2 so thats more money to spend.
I have used Truespace since version 1 but now I am migrating to XSI Foundation. Foundation offers more real bang for yer buck, its cheaper than Truespace and I can work on it for hours without it crashing.
I will keep an eye on Truespace as it was the app that got me started in 3D, but I cannot trust it with any serious work becuase of the instabiltity.
Cheers
Garion
Oh well......:confused: |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 8, 2006, 1:43pm
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3DBuzz doesn't have a tS listing either, but a rather nice compilation of videos for GameSpace which is clonish of it's tS cousins.
I feel in my opinion, that tS should hit the niche market in the next level of
3D authorware. That is the tight integration of video, 3D and HD, GPS, etc.
That's right, I said GPS, think about it. :) |
Post by Mitch // Mar 8, 2006, 3:53pm
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Mitch
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What I find strange is at http://www.renderosity.com trueSpace has next to no post in the graphic section as compared to Vue from e-on.
There is a constant flow of member works being shown there.
Both programs do excellent work as is shown in this months trueSpace winners and both cost the same.
I believe one reason for this is Vue's ability to import Poser figures and the like.
Considering how long trueSpace has been around you would think there would be much more interest shown. I believe a smart mind could discover the problem here and boast interest and passion for trueSpace. |
Post by noko // Mar 8, 2006, 4:45pm
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I just find the forums here superior for TS related items, so rarely do I migrate into other forums where some folks will argue about your choice or try to establish why such and such is the way to go. I just got tired of it. Here I am much more happy as a result and maybe for many of us here that maybe true as well. Some I think would think we are isolated, I think we are not but just found a better place to hang out. Maybe I should wonder around some, ahhh maybe tomorrow. |
Post by geneg // Mar 8, 2006, 5:53pm
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hi Gang
Grrrrrrrr! I've edited this post 12 times already because I'm not sure if I want to risk getting kicked out of here or not, but, Mitch please don't mention trueSpace and Poser together. Poser is Barbie dolls and dress-up for 3D, there is no 'Art' involved. trueSpace can make art.
How much talent does it take to use a pre-made model, pose it, add some background from Bryce, Vue or whatever and post a render. I abhor even the mention of that software.
If you are serious about the CG business, or even if you are just a hobbiest like me, you need to take the time to learn the software and MAKE your own objects, be it people, orcs, buses, motorcycles, watches or houses.
There is no constructive value to that program at all, its just the easy, LAZY way out. Make your own stuff, thats what 3D is all about. You will learn nothing of value.
Although I would put trueSpace on my resume, I would never ever tell anyone I used Poser. Its a program for talentless wannabees. Renderosity is a hangout for Poser People, which is why I never posted much of my own work there.
BTW - Vue5 is a good program but it also has the potential to be abused in the wrong hands. |
Post by Alien // Mar 8, 2006, 6:23pm
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If you got kicked from here for saying that [not that I think you would], I for 1 would be campaigning to have you reinstated, especially as myself & W!ZARD pretty much said the same thing [though nowhere near as bluntly :D] in another thread.
I agree with everything you've said 100%. Your post deserves a standing ovation, but you'll have to settle for dancing bananas.
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 8, 2006, 7:49pm
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There was a room for trueSpace over at CG Talk for about a half a minute. The room description said something to the effect of 'here's your tS room, now post some stuff'. Very little was ever posted there and not long after I couldn't find the tS room anymore. I don't know if it was pulled because of lack of post/interests or what.
As far as the whole Poser thing (full disclosure: I do own the app), let me just say that art is not defined the the process. A stick of gum, a can opener and a dead rat can be art in the right hands...well maybe not, but you get my point.
Truthfully, if you want to know why tS isn't included in forums like CG Talk , you need look no further than posts like geneg's. Compare the character rigging process in tS to a program like Maya...well you can't really. Then someone goes off on tS like geneg did on Poser and exclusion and ridicule are the result.
When people start recognizing and respecting the application of art, we will see programs like tS given thier due for their ability to allow the user to share their vision and give others a glimpse of the world as they see it.
And isn't that really what art is all about? |
Post by geneg // Mar 8, 2006, 10:00pm
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If there was a room at CG Society for tS and no one really used it, then that is our fault that it was taken away. So be it.
"A stick of gum, a can opener and a dead rat can be art in the right hands..." I agree with you. And in the right hands 'art' can be made with Poser. The problem is, especially for Newbies, is that it's too Damn easy! You can make a render with a few cut out dolls and some background images. That in itself doesn't make it bad. What is bad, is that very very few people using Poser progress beyond doing just that. They stagnate. They don't learn. They are stuck making different poses of the same old models, waiting anxiously for the real artists to come out with a new model of a different girl with a new wardrobe so they can get excitied about 'posing' her in the same old hashed out scenes. Its an endless cycle down a deadend alley.
I know very well the strong and the weak points of trueSpace, I've been using it for over 8 years and I've been doing 3D for almost 20 years. So, whatever anyone else says about tS, I've probably already said it myself. Besides, I've been around long enough to not be swayed by people who don't know what they are talking about. The one thing I have never said about tS is that it's a toy. Its not. It is a real world 3D rendering program and great things can be made in it, as I've been lucky enough to have several honors bestowed to me by way of using this fine program.
I can model anything in tS that can be modeled in any other program, maybe even faster sometimes. Can I render it better? Maybe yes, maybe no. tS7 has some new renderers that will help. As far as animation tools go, tS is sadly lacking and has been for a long time, that is not news to anyone. Since I don't do anims, it doesn't concern me much.
I don't consider and have never felt tS to be in the same league as the 'Big Boy' apps. Sorry folks, tS is what I and many others feel to be a 'starter app'. Caligari is a small company, it can't directly compete with the guys with deeper pockets. I liked the feel of the App from the first time I used it. I like the one window GUI. I even like the Icons, although with over 700 of them now, its like learning a new language. Even so, its only now after 8 years that I'm starting to hit the walls or the edges of what can be reasonably done in tS. And that was done through listening, learning from others and above all, practice, practice, practice. You don't make headway by using other peoples meshes. You can certainly learn from them by examing them, but you have to get in the trenches and make the inevitable mistakes to learn.
So, in closing, I don't think of Poser is even the same league as tS, nor is it a learning experience to use it. It's a copout. And yes, this is my opinion.
bye |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 8, 2006, 11:04pm
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I can respect the opinion and the reasons but I have to disagree with the conclusions.
I think your fault is with those Poser users. If a good number of users fail to create with any originality, that isn't the fault of the tool. As far as Poser not being in tS' league, that's like comparing apples and oranges. For what it's worth, Poser does a greater percentage of what it says it does than tS, sadly.
Not that I can't relate to what you are saying. I look at all these HDRI images that people are producing (regardless of app) and all I can say is gee, another shiny ball in the middle of a venice street...I don't fault the program for the users lack of imagination tho...
But to be clear about my own use of Poser, I originally purchased it as an animation solution where I would take my tS created models and use it's superior animation tools. Haven't grokked that far yet tho.
I always like to quote that old art teacher of mine that cautioned us 'the music is not in the piano'.
An artist using any tool will create art. |
Post by Johny // Mar 9, 2006, 5:15am
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That's all because tS just wake up from long sleep ;) |
Post by stan // Mar 9, 2006, 7:05am
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stan
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Geneg..doubt you'd get the boot..but on the poser subject I'm pretty sure I've seen them used in a commercial on tv..and why would an illustrator waste alot of time making a character model ..unless the customer wanted to spend more...
that said..for art, to me it depends on the use..modeling your own is much more satisfying..but do people even notice? ..and where is hair for truespace..??? :confused:
we have so few plugin developers as it is..with this node stuff doubt there will be too many new ones..people don't always want to give out their code..I sure hope there will be a c++ way to create them for the player ..no word on the ts7 sdk ..[update] just found a blog from an old plugin maker..
http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/1236/6848
another question, how can Roman's dream of being a competitor to maya happen if we have no ambassadors who frequent other forums enough to get noticed..?? with all these licences where are the people? sure hope truespace isn't becoming the edsel of the 3d world.. |
Post by KeithC // Mar 9, 2006, 8:32am
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Wow, he doesn't pull any punches with that blog about TS in the GG forums, does he? |
Post by Mitch // Mar 9, 2006, 12:32pm
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geneg this is Rants and Raves so it should be open season more or less. There should be no problem with what ever you say.
Reality hurts!! Poser is one of many tools that real people use to do real work that pays real money. The point of this discussion is why is trueSpace not more popular. Popular means more money for Caligari which means more for us in even better software. Many thousands are working to produce things of value that pay money and they will use the best tools available to suit their budget.
I was expecting to see more post on the net after the release of trueSpace 7 to show off its new features but that does not seem to be the case.
I just typed in "truespace 7" in Google images guess how many ---- 4!!!! ---
"truespace7" ---- 36 that's an improvement.
I typed in "truespace 6.6", its been around for awhile, guess how many ---- 84!!!!
I typed in "poser 6", guess how many ---- 2910!!!!
Our goal is to see trueSpace become more popular with more buzz so that Caligari can make lots of money so we can get even better software.
How can this be done? |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 9, 2006, 1:38pm
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IMO, people are looking for tS to cater to them.
tS doesn't really cater to a particular market. There are plenty of individuals that can swear by tS, but no industry can. If tS is going to win over people at CGTalk, it's going to have to be able to do the type of work that is usually seen over at CG Talk. CGT posts in the 3D section are dominated by character and character animation work. Even more so on the 2D side.
Is tS strong in that area? No. So of course tS won't enjoy favor in an arena where it cannot adequately contribute.
There is an old saying that says 'you gotta give the people people what they want before you give 'em what they need'. Caligari seems to work the opposite approach.
Also, we as users have to be mindful of where we post our stuff and how we present it. I think we have a tendency to post stuff in boards basically saying 'hey betcha didn't know tS can do this!' to which someone responds 'great. but can it do this and this and this...' our response is usually no.
The guys at http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/index.php seem pretty cool. I posted my 'ninja mummy' there and recieved feedback that didn't translate into 'pretty good for trueSpace'. Didn't personally experience any app snobbery there. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 9, 2006, 1:45pm
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Oh, trueSpace was mentioned in the latest 3D world mag:
Whereas packages like Eovia's Carrara and Caligari's trueSpace once occupied a clearly defined territorry...both Carrara and trueSpace are still here, and attempting to redefine themselves for todays market.
Carrara got a very favorable review. Where are the trueSpace7 reviews? |
Post by Garion // Mar 9, 2006, 3:23pm
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According to the people at 3D world the Truespace 7 review will be in the next issue, they did not wan to review the download version as the CD version has been updated since then.
Cheers
Garion |
Post by Mitch // Mar 9, 2006, 5:47pm
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In this months 3D World Mag they did not include trueSpace 6.6 or 7
in their buyers section, nor did Digit Mag yet nearly every other program was, including Bryce and Poser. If I owned Caligari this state of affairs would not exist. I would have a round table of the top people in the 3D world and find out how to change this and do it. If Caligari is happy with how things are then there is no issue. We have a great program to work with and that is what matters to us. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 9, 2006, 6:01pm
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trueSpace was however in this months Q&A.
Lighting setup question. The .scn file was just an empty scene. Was it supposed to be like that I wonder? |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 9, 2006, 11:53pm
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If you want a new users opinion on why trueSpace is not catching the eye of todays market, here is my take.
People want to do projects and do them with minimal learning curve, so they look for software that will do it faster, better and with good results. Not everyone wants to be a fabulous 3D artist or a techno geek that knows his UV from his Nurb.
Did you every look on how many 3D text type programs there are and how easy some of them are for web posters? Hmmmm?
I use Poser because it is quick, just purchased it about 10 days ago. Already I've made dozens of animations and ported them into executable movie files for future distribution.
With that said, I need props as well. So I use tS to define the geometry of the prop, paint it, cook it and serve it up in poser or a motion application.
Now, I'm looking to purchase a 3D painter, because I can't stand ##$!@ UV mappers, they are a pain in the you know what. Why would anyone want to go through all that pain?!!!
I liken the use of Poser and trueSpace to older word processor applications.
Anyone remember Wordstar? it was hailed as very powerful, because it could use commands in line with the text and you could use key strokes to do anything. Then, wysiwig word processors started to come out. Suddenly, a click here, a drag there, highlight this and that and bingo, instant document.
That's the way I look at 3D applications. I don't want to set there and wrestle with the application on how to do something, I don't have the time.
By the way, Poser has the ability to change models with morph and morph targets, magnets, etc. I used Poser's program abilities to make a T-Rex from a human model. The only think I lacked was a head, so I made one in ts6.6 and plugged it in on my morphed body.
Touched up the texture, hid some fingers, distorted the image a bit and used a modified strutting walk for motion. Instant t-rex in about 6 hours of work. Modeled, animated and textured, ready to move out.
Was it as good as you see in the movies? Nope, but it serves my purposes.
:)
I'm already filling up a DVD with stuff from a Poser/trueSpace hybrid adventure. Both are in my toolbox and they work well. Thank goodness for that LUUV plug-in. :) |
Post by stan // Mar 10, 2006, 6:00am
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I see it more as the big guys needed customers[or one wouldnt sell out to another]..so they sell at a rock bottom price to lure people to them..my guess is they were hurting .. it was once explained to me the price of those apps was related to the amount of prospective customers they targeted..now they want beginners, regular artists not just those in the film and tv business ..
caligari is fighting a turf war over market share with the giants....it's not like 3d artist grow on trees..there are only so many people worldwide
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3D World Mag
Whereas packages like Eovia's Carrara and Caligari's trueSpace once occupied a clearly defined territorry...both Carrara and trueSpace are still here, and attempting to redefine themselves for todays market.
that quote from 3D World Mag sorta says it all..ouch.. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 10, 2006, 8:04am
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I think that the big guys aren't so much desperate for customers as they realize that changes in technologies have endangered their elevated positions in the market.
There isn't much seperating programs like Carrara or trueSpace from programs like Maya or 3DSMax save focus. The big guys know who they are creating for and respond with features that suit them.
Eovia is taking a sort of WalMart appoach and offering premium features at low prices.
Caligari? Field of Dreams approach it seems. If you build it, (they) will come. Thing is, it's hard to attract customers to a product when they don't see how it's different than others. Remember that old saying 'if you have to explain the joke, then it's not funny' ? If you have to explain the feature, then maybe it's not so useful...
Basically, if trueSpace wants more exposure and positive feedback from it, users will start having to use trueSpace for applications it has been known to be weak in previously. VRay isn't really going to sell tS because Vray exists for so many applications and will be standalone soon enough. If the 7.1 release can give tS come competent, reliable and easy to use animation features (and tS users start sharing character animations) interest in tS will skyrocket.
If 7.1 doesn't deliver that, expect opinions to lower and penetration into the market to be even harder. You can't expect to take over the industry if your program only does half of what the competition does. |
Post by KeithC // Mar 10, 2006, 8:22am
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I would've traded time creating Shared Space for a far more stable program. Has anyone had this problem? I open up the object info panel to manually resize an object, and quite frequently the number I am typing in switches back to the value that was in the box previously. Suppose I am making a box, but I don't want it to be 4x4x4. So I begin to give it the following values: 5.5x10.65x21.898; as I'm typing in 21.898, the values suddenly switch back to 4. It seems that I must type very fast in order to accomplish this simple task. This happens eraticaly (on TS 6.6), but it is quite annoying.
I'm sure Caligari was trying to give us something that the competition didn't have; but, as I said before, Shared Space is useless to dial-up users (and apparently it's not available to everyone as stated). But in the end (for me) I would take an actual stable program over one that has a few features that I may or may not use.
But, I don't like to pee in someone's Cornflakes when I don't know what's going on behind the scenes; so all I can do is wait (and wait for a demo...someday).
-Keith |
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