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Is the Features forum really...
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Is the Features forum really... // Rants and Raves
Post by tomasb // Mar 31, 2006, 11:10am
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tomasb
Total Posts: 261
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Specific questions:
Selective SDS - Is this feature stable?
There are some issues with this one in 7.01, especially when you have non-2-manifold geometry; it computed normals in a wrong way and created strange holes in the geometry... these were fixed for 7.1.
There were also some other stability issues, from which many of them were also fixed (but may be not all of them); you can find here Paul's head when he was trying to crash Player...
On player side there will be some interesting tools in 7.1, but still not enough to remove Modeler modeling code away... |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 31, 2006, 12:07pm
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Naes3d
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Thanks for the candor Tomas, but I was referring to the 'one small step' of going from tS5.1 to tS6.6. tS7 is 'a giant leap' for my budget. Since I won't qualify for the free .5 upgrade, it will be even larger for tS7.5.
Just trying to see if the jump from 5.1 to 6.6 is worth the money, considering there are many bugs that will never be fixed. |
Post by splinters // Mar 31, 2006, 12:29pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Naes, 6.6 is very good but personally I would stick with TS5 until you can upgrade to 7. Difference there would be huge. I think you will be impressed with 7.1 and beyond...;) |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 31, 2006, 2:28pm
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Naes3d
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Upgrade to tS7 is $499. With VRay another $299. Add to that the $XXX.XX cost of the .5 upgrade. I haven't seen an image made with tS7 that couldn't have been done in Bryce and a reasonably capable image editor. The architecture has been being worked on for 4 years and stable is not an adjective anyone (including Caligari staff) have used to describe it yet.
There is a good chance I will never upgrade to tS7. It just costs way too much to accomplish what can be accomplished in other software for far less money with far more stability.
My interst in 6.6 is about trying to maintain a link with an app that at one time was my favorite. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Apr 1, 2006, 3:54am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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I haven't seen an image made with tS7 that couldn't have been done in Bryce and a reasonably capable image editor.
Come on Naes, let's be a bit more fair than that. Technically, you only need a set of paint brushes and some paint to create the scenes from the Sistene Chapel.
There's always going to be some artist somewhere that can squeeze the last few drops out of an old app and do quite well at it when compared to the users of a new app who have a learning curve to climb. For instance, Buzz did awesome work with his version of trueSpace and that wasn't with Vray.
Talent is in the artist, not the tool.
P.K. |
Post by splinters // Apr 1, 2006, 4:18am
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splinters
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I haven't seen an image made with tS7 that couldn't have been done in Bryce and a reasonably capable image editor.
That is a bit harsh, and unrealistic. Bryce has nowhere near the toolset for modelling that TS has. IF you are referring to placing pre-made content into Bryce then that is not really a fair comparison is it?
For some it is about creating from scratch, not making an image the quick way.
And I use Bryce a lot....but not for modelling characters...;) |
Post by Johny // Apr 1, 2006, 5:35am
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Johny
Total Posts: 672
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Naes3d, when I upgrade from tS52 to tS66. I found tS66 render faster than tS52, and I like it's multi layer editor very well :) |
Post by Naes3d // Apr 1, 2006, 12:01pm
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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PK, I am well aware that the artist is responsible for the art not the tool. This is why when chooing your tool you have to look at what makes it different from its peers. For doing what I like to do, I haven't seen tS7 o anymore than what tS5 can do.
Splinters, I see your point; however, you are forgetting that the image editor could make up for what Bryce can't do. The not so well made point of that quote is that I can do what I have seen done with tS with cheaper options. To be able to do what I have sen done with tS7 would cost me about $800 (not including the cost of the upgrade that supposedly has the tools I am intersted in). We're talking about investing closer to $1000 than not for a tool set that isn't even complete.
The only real difference so far is the real time collaboration which I haven't seen anybody use yet and am relatively certain I won't use. |
Post by splinters // Apr 1, 2006, 12:13pm
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splinters
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TS7 renders much faster than TS6 and with HDRI; blazing fast. I would have upgraded from 6 to 7 for this alone. PLayer is also coming into its own and LE is great.
Collaboration is imminent and will blow your socks off.
Still don't get your argument; so I have Bryce and Photoshop. How do I make my content for it? I certainly don't want to composite other peoples work. I want to be individual and have my own style from concept modelling through to final composition.
How can this be done practically with just Bryce and PS? |
Post by Naes3d // Apr 1, 2006, 12:37pm
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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The answer is in how you use the programs involved. For example you could import a 2D building as a facade into Bryce (or any 3D app for that matter) and render away. It's a fairly common practice to use images mapped to planes in a 3D package. It can be effective. You could take a photo into Bryce and come up with all kinds of FX you couldn't get with Photoshop alone.
the content imported into a 3D package doesn't always have to be 3D. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Apr 1, 2006, 1:22pm
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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There are lots of ways to accomplish an end goal. If you've found a way that works for you and is cheap that's cool.
I look at Bryce and trueSpace as two separate mediums. Each is very useful within a range of techniques and each can be stretched to go beyond the usual (especially through a little post-render touchup). I own Bryce 5 and am very happy with it. Same with trueSpace 7.
Can you do the same things with both? I suppose so, but then you could also make a photorealistic image with oil paints (talent assumed of course).
Bottom line, whatever way you choose only has to work for you. |
Post by Naes3d // Apr 1, 2006, 1:57pm
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Naes3d
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Quite true, PK. But the real meat of my argument is the cost of tS. The whole Bryce thing was taken out of context. My whole point is that nothing I have seen has justified it's cost.
Again, the cost of going from tS5 to tS7 with VRay and the .5 upgrade will be just shy of $1000. Plus' I haven't heard whether or not VRay 1.0 is going to be a free upgrade to those who have VRay 0 point whatever. Anything Caligari sees as a major uprgrade will be at cost. Who knows how many releases will be necessary before all the tools are ported to the Player side.
It may sound like a stretch, but it is true: you had to pay to get access to these forums (since you needed to own tS to do so). It's like watching the Caligari version of 'The Money Pit'. People are being asked to write out multiple checks for a product that isn't finished with no way of knowing what is in the works unless you pay more money to join proTeam (that doesn't have a good track record as far as getting what you pay for).
I mean...geez...
EDIT
AND don't get me started on the fact that those who are concerned with cost and availability are being made the butt of jokes by those who think its funny that they have what you don't... |
Post by Asem // Apr 1, 2006, 3:19pm
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Asem
Total Posts: 255
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My guess is that(hopefully) it would take until right after ts7.5. I also don't feel like ts7.5 should even be called ts7.5 because then it sounds like as Naes3d said "People are being asked to write out multiple checks for a product that isn't finished." Vray 1.0 is free to its user base(who bought 0.9). I don't agree with the bridge since if we wanted to we would just use the version we already had until we did learn ts7 and another thing the CA tools would had been done and I think ts7 would have more if they didn't spend a year on the bridge. I do understand the fact that they did it because of the plug-ins but the thing is a good amount of the plug-ins don't work that well (at least for me). I think Caligari is finally on track and some of the tools mentioned in the ts7.1(player side) is making it more better. I especially have high hopes because of the new archeitecture but because of the old it kinda is holding the new one back.:rolleyes: |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 1, 2006, 10:34pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hi Naes
I'm not all that clear on what the actual topic is in this thread but I have this to say on the 'value for money' issue. I bought ts 5.1 secondhand for an extremely reasonable price - less than US$50.00 - I have not paid a single cent more since. I've not bought a single plugin or tutorial from Caligari or anywhere else. By learning how to use (just some of) the features available in tS 5.1 and by using the abundance of tS resources available free online, I have had thousands of hours of great pleasure, I've learned a huge amount about 3d art and I've managed to create some pictures that, judging by the general feedback, are not too bad.
Yes I have problems getting the software to do what I want at times - partly because I didn't know how to drive it and partly due to limitations in the softwares capabilities and partly due to my aging computer (this applies to every other piece of software I own by the way - I've yet to find a piece of software that can't be crashed in some way).
But, using no more than the manual, a bit of trial and error and the help of fellow trueSpacers on various forums, I have reached the point where I have reached a degree of notoriety amongst the trueSpace online community and have had reasonable success with my art.
My images have been used in online multiplayer games and as cover art for a privately released CD. Just last week I received an offer to assist a film maker in Florida with a fantasy film project he is working on and I have received several similar opportunities as well. All this was done with the same software package you have - TrueSpace 5.1
All this for 50 bucks? That is what I call bloody good value for money.
Last November I won an upgrade to tS 6.6 with my artwork and this February I won a further upgrade. Caligari has never had a single dollar of mine (mostly because I don't have any money to spend with them due to my financial realities).
I'm nobody special - just a guy who loves playing with cool toys and sees trueSpace as being a VERY cool toy. At the end of the day it's not a question of how much the software costs as it is a question of what you will get for your money. There is no reason that I can think of that you can't take your copy of tS 5.1 and make winning images with it.
Bryce? Yeah I have Bryce 5.5 - I won it in an art competition over at 3dcommune using an image I made with ts 5.1 - again pretty good value for 50 bucks:D .
I'm currently using tS 6.6 - in my opinion it is not quite as stable as tS 5.1 (at least on my underpowered computer) but has some really cool features - the layers thing is great, the mirror modeller is a godsend, the newer type of SDS is brilliant and so on. Given a choice between tS 5.1 and tS 6.6 I would go with the latter.
If the original cost factor is such an issue for you perhaps you can get a secondhand version - Caligari happily transfer the licence in my experience.
Value for money? That depends totally on how you look at it. Sooner or later, one way or another trueSpace is going to make me reasonable amounts of money - once I figure out how!!
It's not what you've got (or how much it cost you) it's what you do with it that counts IMHO
OK rant over - I'm off to render something!! |
Post by Naes3d // Apr 2, 2006, 12:50pm
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Naes3d
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Hello W!zard
Value can have many meanings depending on context. In the context of your story, the meaning of value is more kin to
Worth in usefulness or importance to the possessor; utility or merit: the value of an education.
While in the context I am using it in is more kin to
An amount, as of goods, services, or money, considered to be a fair and suitable equivalent for something else; a fair price or return.
So while I agree with what you said it doesn't change the fact that I am or mitigate the reasons for why I question the value of the software.
I still don't see any tangible reason for the $1000 upgrade. Now before anyone says 'you don't have to buy VRay' , understand that both Carrara and XSI offer HDRI, Global Illumination, caustics, Subsurface Scattering and Multipass rendering standard, so I have to factor in the cost of VRay in order to make the feature to feature comparison.
But if you can get me tS7 for $50 I will gladly pay it. |
Post by Alien // Apr 2, 2006, 4:13pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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But if you can get me tS7 for $50 I will gladly pay it.
I think the point W!ZARD was trying to make was that you have the potential to win tS7 for no extra cost [as you already have 5.1], as he did. Granted that wouldn't [AFAIK] get you Vray, but [IIRC] 1 of the prize options is money off future purchases from Caligari, so you could conceivably win tS7, then with another win or 2 have enough credit against the cost of Vray for it to be affordable to you. |
Post by Naes3d // Apr 2, 2006, 4:37pm
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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I think the point W!ZARD was trying to make was that you have the potential to win tS7 for no extra cost [as you already have 5.1], as he did. Granted that wouldn't [AFAIK] get you Vray, but [IIRC] 1 of the prize options is money off future purchases from Caligari, so you could conceivably win tS7, then with another win or 2 have enough credit against the cost of Vray for it to be affordable to you.
No offense, but I could play the lottery and win enough money to buy 4 copies of every 3D software available. Plus a yacht and a Diet Rite.
Jokes aside, I can't bank on winning tS in a contest as arbitrarily judged as Image of the Month. Maybe if Caligari held a contest with a specific theme and put up tS7 and Vray as a prize I would give it a try. But IotM is too iffy. |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Apr 2, 2006, 5:10pm
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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sigh... I give up. |
Post by Naes3d // Apr 2, 2006, 6:17pm
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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Cheer up PK, there really isn't much anyone can do it seems. It all boils down to the satisfaction of the individual user. Nobody can be satisfied with a product simply because someone else is.
For those whom tS is working great for, may it continue to do so. |
Post by Bobbins // Apr 2, 2006, 9:49pm
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Bobbins
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Now before anyone says 'you don't have to buy VRay' , understand that both Carrara and XSI offer HDRI, Global Illumination, caustics, Subsurface Scattering and Multipass rendering standard, so I have to factor in the cost of VRay in order to make the feature to feature comparison.
You do know that tS7 has HDRI, Global Illumination, caustics and Multi-pass rendering as standard? VRay isn't required for that. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 2, 2006, 10:16pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hi Naes
I think the point I was trying to make is that Value - monetary or otherwise - is in the eye of the beholder. I used to work in a shop and was often amused to see folk come in a complain that a specific item was way too expensive only to then have someone else buy that same item whilst commenting on what a great deal it was at that price - same item, same price, different perceptions of value.
I'm not suggesting you set out to win software - I just wished to illustrate that there are many ways to the top of the mountain. If I was financially able to buy tS upgrades, tutorials etc I would - in a heartbeat. Even if we assume I spend 2 grand on software and tutorials (any software, the principle is universal), never win anything or make a cent with my output I would still consider that money very well spent.
That's because the crucial factor for me is entertainment - in my earlier post I refer to thousands of hours of fun and enjoyment derived from playing with my software - so even if I had spent $2000.00 and got 1000 hours of use from it then I'm paying 2 bucks an hour for great entertainment (and that doesn't count the additional pleasure I get from meeting great people on the forums!). 2 bucks an hour for great entertainment? Again that's bloody good value for money.
I repeat my statement - it's what you DO with it that counts. When I won tS 6.6 last November I couldn't care less what the actual prize was - the thing that bought me the greatest satisfaction was having my work recognised and receiving dozens of congratulation messages from forum buddies - but I would have been happy to get a Caligari t-shirt instead of an upgrade because I was still getting so much value - so much fun and satisfaction - from ts 5.1.
I suggest that it makes no real difference which software you use or what dollar value it has as long as you can get satisfaction from it. And you only get that from using it.
Assuming I have some cash to start with it really doesn't matter too much how the specifics of one product compare to another providing the product you eventually choose is rewarding and satisfying to use.
I'm not suggesting you should be satisfied with tS just because I am. I'm suggesting the amount of satisfaction anyone experiences is ultimately their choice. Because I (and others) are choosing to satisfy ourselves with tS then you can too. If you want to. Or not. It's your call - and your choice ultimately says more about you than it does about trueSpace.
My main concern - and the motive behind my posts to you - is that you are so focused on the ways that tS is poor value that you are not seeing the ways in which it is good value with the result that you end up unhappy and dissatisfied. I am not advocating some Pollyanna 'everything is wonderful' attitude but I am suggesting you try looking for the good points as well as the not-so-good. Then you can come and join the party with all the other (mostly) satisfied trueSpacers.
Last comment - you say you don't see any tangible reason for the $1000.00 upgrade. I'm surprised that you would expect to. Financial values are usually the result of stamp-lickin' pen-pushin' accountants who are dealing with a very one-eyed view of the world. The cost of tS (or any other item)has nothing at all to do with customers satisfaction (although that is a concern for marketers) and everything to do with balancing books, paying wages, taxes, insurances and other overheads.
Laws of fair trade plus the realities of supply and demand in a competitive market mean that any company will sell it's goods at the optimum price for their needs. Roman and the Caligarians are not trying to rip you off - they aim to bring you the best product they can for the best price they can.
When you go to a restaurant do you sit and gripe about the cost or do you sit and enjoy the meal? I know which option is the best value for me! |
Post by chrono // Apr 3, 2006, 1:29am
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chrono
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I love posts like W!ZARD's! It's stuff like that do more harm then good because it's reaks of "Follow the crowd."-ism and it's followers put up with everything and anything that a person or company will throw at them because they believe that they are 'right' and 'happy' and that if anyone else doesn't view it that way then THEY are wrong in someway or horribly mis-guided.
It's basically the people who are 'positive', 'negative', and 'status quo is just fine' have blinders on regardless how well they frame thier words or thoughts because they are ALWAYS personally bias. People are just better of getting to the point and saying STFU! then winding(spl?) posts that say the same thing multiple times.
Yeah "value" is in the eye of the beholder, but it doesn't make thier agruements any less valid, meaningless, trite, silly, or any of the several hundred positive or demeaning descriptions that you throw at it! You have to view as "What will it improve in the program?" before you pass your bias personally judgement on it! |
Post by Alien // Apr 3, 2006, 2:36am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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2 bucks an hour for great entertainment? Again that's bloody good value for money.
Especially if they're NZ$ - what's that get you normally, a loaf of bread & a cup of water? ;)
When I won tS 6.6 last November
<goes & looks>
Damn, W!z, I thought your recent winner was nice... :cool:
Roman and the Caligarians
LOL, sounds like a good name for an indie rock band. :D |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Apr 3, 2006, 3:49am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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I'm beginning to think that "Green Eggs and Ham" was missed on a few people's reading lists as children. |
Post by TomG // Apr 3, 2006, 6:44am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Some things:
It has been said that "V-Ray and tS5 to tS7 and then the cost of the .5 upgrade will be just shy of $1000"
But we have never posted or said what the price of 7.0 to 7.5 would be. That makes any such statement pure conjecture (but it is being presented as fact).
Next,
"that both Carrara and XSI offer HDRI, Global Illumination, caustics, Subsurface Scattering and Multipass rendering standard, so I have to factor in the cost of VRay in order to make the feature to feature comparison.
"
Umm you get HDRI, GI, Caustics and multipass in tS7 without V-Ray. HDRI and multipass rendering is available under LW; GI and Caustics are fully supported in Virtualight which is integrated and included in tS7.
So you dont need to add in the cost of V-Ray for a comparison. The fact is just that V-Ray is catching people's imagination more than Virtualight for some reason, and people are making the GI and Caustic images using V-Ray; they could though easily make GI and Caustic images using Virtualight!
Anyway, wanted to ensure that some of this is factual, since there seems to be a lot of conjecture and incorrect comments being made.
HTH,
Tom |
Post by Alien // Apr 3, 2006, 6:56am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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I'm beginning to think that "Green Eggs and Ham" was missed on a few people's reading lists as children.
That's 1 of those Dr Seuss books isn't it? I've heard of them, but I don't think I ever saw even a mention of them when I was younger. I just remember getting strange looks from the other kids for reading sci-fi novels while they were reading about a girl & boy called Janet & John, & a dog called Spot. :) |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Apr 3, 2006, 3:17pm
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Yep. A Dr. Seuss classic.
http://members.aol.com/smargolin/ryan/green.htm
Of course the illustrations (missing above) really make the story. It's pretty much about a guy that gets hounded by a green eggs and ham salesman named "Sam-I-am" and decides that he hates green eggs and ham without even trying it. Only after much pressure, he caves in but finds out that he really does like green eggs and ham after all.
Proves a couple of things. One, that salesmen are worse than drug pushers (I think several telemarketers were inspired by the little Sam-I-am character) and, two, it sometimes pays to keep an open mind.
Personally, I think it's some sorta conspiracy parents use to try to fool their kids into eating their green vegetables. :)
P.K. |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 3, 2006, 10:39pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I love posts like W!ZARD's! It's stuff like that do more harm then good because it's reaks of "Follow the crowd."-ism and it's followers put up with everything and anything that a person or company will throw at them because they believe that they are 'right' and 'happy' and that if anyone else doesn't view it that way then THEY are wrong in someway or horribly mis-guided.
It's basically the people who are 'positive', 'negative', and 'status quo is just fine' have blinders on regardless how well they frame thier words or thoughts because they are ALWAYS personally bias. People are just better of getting to the point and saying STFU! then winding(spl?) posts that say the same thing multiple times.
Yeah "value" is in the eye of the beholder, but it doesn't make thier agruements any less valid, meaningless, trite, silly, or any of the several hundred positive or demeaning descriptions that you throw at it! You have to view as "What will it improve in the program?" before you pass your bias personally judgement on it!
Chuckle! 'Follow the crowd-ism'? Give me a break Chrono - I'm expressing my opinion from my point of view - exactly as Naes has - and I'm not asking you or anyone else to agree with it. What you choose to think is entirely up to you and full power to you. But for the record I'm probably the last person to follow a crowd anywhere.
And while I'm here - I find your post rather confusing in places so I'm not sure if you are suggesting that I am saying STFU - which I'm not - or if you are saying STFU to me - which I won't. This is the rants and raves forum and I'm entitled to rant and rave, provided I do it respectfully of fellow members.
'Several hundred demeaning discriptions'? Puh-leese! Quote me ONE demeaning discription that I have made on any of these forums!! Naes says he considers tS is not the best value and says why. Fair enough - I say that depends on how you look at it and say why. I have no intention of demeaning anyone.
If you find my posts too longwinded for you I'll keep it short - life is what it is. I was bought up to believe that when life gives you lemons - make lemonade. It is MY opinion that tS is not a lemon. Other folk are perfectly welcome to think otherwise and to hold a different opinion.
Expressing an opinion that is different to someone elses opinion does not say "they are wrong... or horribly misguided" as you suggest. It's just a different opinion ;) . |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 3, 2006, 10:51pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Especially if they're NZ$ - what's that get you normally, a loaf of bread & a cup of water? ;)
<goes & looks>
Damn, W!z, I thought your recent winner was nice... :cool:
LOL, sounds like a good name for an indie rock band. :D
Hi Alien - NZ$2 will get you a loaf of bread and about a pint of milk. We are not exactly a third world nation - more like a 2.5 world nation :D
Glad you like the cobweb pic - the background is a photo I took looking up the river right over the road from my place - our money's not worth much but we got some DAMN fine scenery!
Roman and the Caligarians Greatest hits!! Lol - |
Post by W!ZARD // Apr 3, 2006, 10:56pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Some things:
Anyway, wanted to ensure that some of this is factual, since there seems to be a lot of conjecture and incorrect comments being made.
HTH,
Tom
Thanks for clarifying that point for us Tom but surely we don't want to let mere facts get in the way of a strong opinion?? ;) ;)
They say there's no such thing as bad publicity.:D |
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