Animation upgrade in TS7.5

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Animation upgrade in TS7.5 // Rants and Raves

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Post by xmanflash // Apr 26, 2006, 4:41am

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If, as rumoured, the the animation toolset is being augmented in TS7.5, who are the world class animators that are being consulted to help design the interface/workflow ?


Animation is designer thing, not a coder thing, and if the animation interface ends up like the current 7.0/1 modeller/player interface then the artists amongst us are done for..


I dont see any animation examples done with TS that look like they are of commercial quality in an entertainment context to date, and without getting some high quality input at this stage of the game, we are not likely to ever see good examples.


Is there a v-ray of hope in my bleak outlook?

Post by jamesmc // Apr 26, 2006, 4:57am

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I agree with your assessment Xmanflash.


If motion picture industry is the ultimate goal/standard of 3D modeling, then Caligari appears to be in the spectator stands watching the parade go by.


Artwork in 3D is cool and all, but how much static 3D art do you see in everyday applications and media? Not talking about the cutesy 3D letters or squiggles and giggles.


People will argue the engineering aspect of 3D static art. However, Engineers aren't exactly knocking each other down to buy tS versions to do their complicated drawings in detail.


Is Flash popular because it could display static images? I don't think so.


Could Ice Age I or II still be done with muppets? Yeah, but they would lose money.


Do artists want a way to display their talents in a motion venue? You bet, millions of them.


I could go on, but...you know.

Post by mrbones // Apr 26, 2006, 5:53am

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I am one of of them.

Define commercial quality.

Tell the coders that animation is not a code thing... See how nice of an interface you get.


If, as rumoured, the the animation toolset is being augmented in TS7.5, who are the world class animators that are being consulted to help design the interface/workflow ?

Animation is designer thing, not a coder thing, and if the animation interface ends up like the current 7.0/1 modeller/player interface then the artists amongst us are done for..

I dont see any animation examples done with TS that look like they are of commercial quality in an entertainment context to date, and without getting some high quality input at this stage of the game, we are not likely to ever see good examples.

Is there a v-ray of hope in my bleak outlook?

Post by jamesmc // Apr 26, 2006, 7:38am

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I think what xmanflash meant by designer versus coding is a user friendly interface or at least one that works and makes sense.


Coding for the sake of coding to make stuff without a 'proper' design goal, without the user in mind is a wasted effort. It may have cool toys, but if no one can use it because of an awkward interface or understand it, then what good is it?


The thing about making application friendly is to make it appear friendly to the user even if you have to rename things. Most users could care less if something can triangulate a gizmo with varying degrees of motion vector-related math functions. What they want to know is that this function allows them to position an object exactly where they want it. And further, they want to know exactly how to do it.


Instruction/tutorials/help is also key. It's kind of funny, I recently purchased an $80.00 dollar program, it came with eighty (80) videos on how the program functions. All for free and included on the CD or available through download.


...

Post by mrbones // Apr 26, 2006, 7:42am

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You got to have no allusions about character animation.

Its a highly complicated process no matter how you slice it,
it is just a lot of hard work for all who are involved.

Just because it looks easy doesnt mean that it is.

This sounds kinda like spoiled children banging their wooden spoon on their tray and spitting up on their bib.

Post by jamesmc // Apr 26, 2006, 7:45am

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There is a huge difference between tedious work and work made difficult by bad design.


Sure animation is tedious, but it doesn't have to be difficult.

Post by xmanflash // Apr 26, 2006, 7:58am

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I am one of of them.

Define commercial quality.

Tell the coders that animation is not a code thing... See how nice of an interface you get.

Hi Mr Bones - thats great news.. by commercial quality I mean broadcast quality, TV spots/Ads to film, and I have tried hard to find examples of this but havent found any yet..

I have never met a great coder who did a great interface yet. That has always come from a collaboration between the intended users, interface design specialists and finally the coder. Anyone who says otherwise is a coder :-)

Good Interface design practice is to always define the workflow, then functionality, then the gui, then the code. In that order. Down to the gui should be developed for operational ease by mainstream animators with industry practice, and not by programmers who might be tempted to add functionality to a product for the sake of marketing feature embellishment, or because its technically possible. I would say the reverse of a raytracing engine - thats all theory and algorithms and makes sense to be designed as such, I just feel strongly that animation tools should be designed by animators if they are to be useful.

Post by xmanflash // Apr 26, 2006, 8:26am

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You got to have no allusions about character animation.


Its a highly complicated process no matter how you slice it,

it is just a lot of hard work for all who are involved.


Just because it looks easy doesnt mean that it is.


This sounds kinda like spoiled children banging their wooden spoon on their tray and spitting up on their bib.


Mr Bones, you are quite confusing.. You say charactor animation is difficult for everyone, but your Truebones product is advertised as 'fun and easy to use - make complex charactor animation in minutes' and your clients certainly seem happy that your product ' all comes down to being able create an animation with more time spent realizing your dream instead of fighting the animation process and perhaps giving up. TrueBones has allowed me more time to imagine and create'


I assume we agree that the tools make the difference, and that as you are a professional animator, you were able to build this tool that Truespace did not have, from your experience in the subject, and make many peoples task easier.


Which is what I was trying to find out when I asked my question about the future animation directions with Truespace.


Would you care to explain the spoiled children bit?

Post by splinters // Apr 26, 2006, 9:14am

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Down to the gui should be developed for operational ease by mainstream animators with industry practice, and not by programmers who might be tempted to add functionality to a product for the sake of marketing feature embellishment, or because its technically possible. I would say the reverse of a raytracing engine - thats all theory and algorithms and makes sense to be designed as such, I just feel strongly that animation tools should be designed by animators if they are to be useful.


That is why 7.5 Beta team has experienced animators on board. That is also why different developers work on different areas of interface code, why Roman designs the UI with advice and help from experienced artists and designers and why someone else designs the icons....;) I think it works. It should all come together more coherently as model side (old Ts6 code) slowly disappears from TS7...:)

Post by mrbones // Apr 26, 2006, 9:17am

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Sorry for the confusion, As I am confused as well..

My point about spoiled children is that users have had pretty decent animation tools just to get started with, then if they want to perhaps animate something a bit more complex they have had that choice as well.

If they need something more than that then perhaps they should start looking at more high priced animation packages.

Now as far as commercial quality and what qualifys such will be debated towards the end of time as to satisfys an audiences eye and what will satifys the artists critisisms who bring the vision of the director to the screen.

I think what I was trying to say is that the CG industry as a whole is spoiled.

People want more and more detail for less and less money or work. Its becoming quite a selfish industry. What people dont realize is that making movies or anything commercial like that costs money and time and is accomplished by people that work very, very hard.

Also I know a lot of folks have allusions about the facts of how hollywood movies are really made. For example when Jurrasic Park came out, just about everyone who had a computer thought they could make effects like that. 11 or 12 years ago When I saw Toy story for the first time, I was 24 years old and was very inspired to become a character animator. I didnt know it at the time, but it wouldnt have been possible for me to produce anything near that quality with a 100 mhz computer. So I had false perspective and unrealistic expectations.

Now if you want to try your hand at animating in TrueSpace with some tools that professionals use without all the headache of Interfaces and UI then thats why I created TrueBones, To ease some of the burdens of what professional character animators face today.

The future of animation I think will be about the Ultimate Interface. That means no interface is needed.

I also think its disrespectful to say what you did and I quote...

"I dont see any animation examples done with TS that look like they are of commercial quality in an entertainment context to date, and without getting some high quality input at this stage of the game, we are not likely to ever see good examples."

Go tell that to any first place animation winner in the Cali Gallery, As I have seen plenty of examples that would pass the commercial or broadcast quality test or whatever you call it. I have even seen some animation created from TrueSpace on this forum in the realtime window renders that is perfect for capturing High Definition Broadcast Quality Video in realtime.

Talk about being spoiled....

Mr Bones, you are quite confusing.. You say charactor animation is difficult for everyone, but your Truebones product is advertised as 'fun and easy to use - make complex charactor animation in minutes' and your clients certainly seem happy that your product ' all comes down to being able create an animation with more time spent realizing your dream instead of fighting the animation process and perhaps giving up. TrueBones has allowed me more time to imagine and create'

I assume we agree that the tools make the difference, and that as you are a professional animator, you were able to build this tool that Truespace did not have, from your experience in the subject, and make many peoples task easier.

Which is what I was trying to find out when I asked my question about the future animation directions with Truespace.

Would you care to explain the spoiled children bit?

Post by mrbones // Apr 26, 2006, 9:29am

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I dont think TrueSpace ever had a bad design for animation. As for difficult maybee we should be looking inward toward our own talents and traits instead of casting blame.



There is a huge difference between tedious work and work made difficult by bad design.


Sure animation is tedious, but it doesn't have to be difficult.

Post by Alien // Apr 26, 2006, 9:46am

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by commercial quality I mean broadcast quality, TV spots/Ads to film, and I have tried hard to find examples of this but havent found any yet..

I seem to remember something about someone using tS for something on the Discovery channel, but don't remember any more than that. You might be able to find it if you look in the trueReasons section of Caligari's site [assuming it's still there].

Post by noko // Apr 26, 2006, 11:59am

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Some of the high end special effects require render farms to render and literally millions of dollar of equipement and people to get looking half right. Asking a person to duplicate on a $600 Dell with TS may be dissappointing if the High dollar special effects of the latest movie is the only passing standard. Yet TS is duplicating stuff in real time which 5 years ago would require a render farm to accomplish. I think the animation capability is strong in TS, the character side maybe outdated but many things can be done animation wise in TS. As MrBones says, "Its a highly complicated process no matter how you slice it, it is just a lot of hard work for all who are involved."


Have fun is the bottom line with your fellow TS users :jumpy: , a simple animation can catch the eye of thousands if not millions if the timing, story and impact is right on.

Post by jamesmc // Apr 26, 2006, 1:27pm

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I dont think TrueSpace ever had a bad design for animation. As for difficult maybee we should be looking inward toward our own talents and traits instead of casting blame.



Yes, let's do that...look inward. Our inner 'chi' will see us through. (hears sitar music.)

Post by jamesmc // Apr 26, 2006, 1:36pm

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Some of the high end special effects require render farms to render and literally millions of dollar of equipement and people to get looking half right. Asking a person to duplicate on a $600 Dell with TS may be dissappointing if the High dollar special effects of the latest movie is the only passing standard. Yet TS is duplicating stuff in real time which 5 years ago would require a render farm to accomplish. I think the animation capability is strong in TS, the character side maybe outdated but many things can be done animation wise in TS. As MrBones says, "Its a highly complicated process no matter how you slice it, it is just a lot of hard work for all who are involved."



Have fun is the bottom line with your fellow TS users :jumpy: , a simple animation can catch the eye of thousands if not millions if the timing, story and impact is right on.



Who said anything about special effects?


Yes, much too complicated for we knuckle-dragging low-brows. Sorry, I didn't realize I was so ignorant, thanks for straightening me out.


Guess I'll have to tell my Uncle who worked at MGM film studios for 40 + years, all those hints and tips he gave me went to waste. I have no lobes, I'm am not a Ferengi, I can achieve no profit...

Post by jamesmc // Apr 26, 2006, 1:44pm

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That is why 7.5 Beta team has experienced animators on board. That is also why different developers work on different areas of interface code, why Roman designs the UI with advice and help from experienced artists and designers and why someone else designs the icons....;) I think it works. It should all come together more coherently as model side (old Ts6 code) slowly disappears from TS7...:)


Experienced Animators? Really? Who are they?


Do they have a website we can see? How about some work on a DVD or CD? An old videotape maybe? Perhaps a game? Yeah, that's it.


Mr. Bones maybe? Tell him to give me s o m e t h i n g for the 199.00 dollars I spent on an order from his website. Or was that jacked with his forums and email? Someone had a good time with my money...

Post by rnotaro // Apr 26, 2006, 7:57pm

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I could be wrong but I heard somewhere that trueSpace was used in the movie Cube. No blockbuster but some good effects.

On the issue of animation, I animate quite a bit. tS is capable of a great deal. It's what I started with and I tend to *make* it work for me and it can get tedious.

Did you ever see Spencer Briton's animation from a couple years ago? Awesome job! Just searched the Caligari site and couldn't find a link for it. Too bad. It was good and funny.

Rick

Post by xmanflash // Apr 26, 2006, 8:58pm

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Total Posts: 335
I could be wrong but I heard somewhere that trueSpace was used in the movie Cube. No blockbuster but some good effects.

On the issue of animation, I animate quite a bit. tS is capable of a great deal. It's what I started with and I tend to *make* it work for me and it can get tedious.

Did you ever see Spencer Briton's animation from a couple years ago? Awesome job! Just searched the Caligari site and couldn't find a link for it. Too bad. It was good and funny.

Rick


I'd love to see that.. cant find anything on google.. :(

Post by xmanflash // Apr 26, 2006, 9:22pm

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Total Posts: 335
I also think its disrespectful to say what you did and I quote...


"I dont see any animation examples done with TS that look like they are of commercial quality in an entertainment context to date, and without getting some high quality input at this stage of the game, we are not likely to ever see good examples."


Go tell that to any first place animation winner in the Cali Gallery, As I have seen plenty of examples that would pass the commercial or broadcast quality test or whatever you call it. I have even seen some animation created from TrueSpace on this forum in the realtime window renders that is perfect for capturing High Definition Broadcast Quality Video in realtime.


Talk about being spoiled....


I mean no disrespect, but I could hardly download the files the response time was so slow. And there seemed to be more technology demos than animations in the first page at least.. I'm thinking along the lines of Veggie Tales, where there is a story that is told through animation, charactor manipulation, and plain old fashion production values in a 3D rendered environment.. Is that what TS is heading towards in terms of its animation toolset?


I know about CGI - have a close friend who did a lot of the work on the twins in the matrix, and another friend who does a huge amount of movie work in Max and Maya though his company in California, Im not expecting that kind of effort because its usually about multiple people and as you say working hard, but they also get to have tools designed for them and I would have thought it would be great to grab a couple of disney or Pixar animators for a couple of days and have them let rip about the ultimate 'budget' toolset for the budding animators in TS...


Are there any other links that show of TS in a more favourable animation light?

Post by Tiles // Apr 27, 2006, 1:46am

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Well, for now the inbuild TS animation tools are outdated since years. Remember that the TS 7 bones system is still the same from TS 66. And that one is the same than in TS 4.3. Just with even more bugs ...


It´s more than time that Caligari spends a new bones system to their flagship.


That said, you simply cannot complain this fossil with current state of the art bones systems. That easy. Other bones system made mayor evolution steps over the years. While the TS inbuild one made downgrade steps in this timespan, and got buggier with every version.


I nevertheless know some people that have used and still use TS for game content for example. I am one of them, creating 2D freeware games with TS since years. I made lots of animated sprites with the ts bones. But i am a bloody amateur. And so the result isn´t the best. Some of my games made it to cover cd´s of german game magazines though ...


There´s also an alternative bones system available. Motion Studio. This one is also a bit outdated. Development stopped before three years. But professional animations made with it are possible. I know at least of one commercial ringtone movie that made it into tv here in germany. Made with trueSpace and Motion Studio.

Post by noko // Apr 27, 2006, 1:35pm

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Who said anything about special effects?


Yes, much too complicated for we knuckle-dragging low-brows. Sorry, I didn't realize I was so ignorant, thanks for straightening me out.


Guess I'll have to tell my Uncle who worked at MGM film studios for 40 + years, all those hints and tips he gave me went to waste. I have no lobes, I'm am not a Ferengi, I can achieve no profit...


You thought my comment was directed at you?? :confused: In any case I could probably use those same knowledge tips though if you want to share. Now 40 years ago I don't think they had any computers doing anything but yet great video/animations where made. Anyways sorry if you felt offended by my comment, jest was it has more to do with the artist then the tools, while the tools are very important the Artist is much more so.

Post by jamesmc // Apr 27, 2006, 4:18pm

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You thought my comment was directed at you?? :confused: In any case I could probably use those same knowledge tips though if you want to share. Now 40 years ago I don't think they had any computers doing anything but yet great video/animations where made. Anyways sorry if you felt offended by my comment, jest was it has more to do with the artist then the tools, while the tools are very important the Artist is much more so.


You're right 40 years ago they didn't have computers that could work with animation.


However, you talk with Digital Effects or Digital Animators with who they have to work with on a film. That would be film editors. That's the profession my Uncle was in, a film editor.


I agree somewhat about the Artist aspect, but if you don't have proper tools or tools that are compliant with the process, then you are sunk. I spoke with the a few of the old hands around the studio that were in cartoon making and their advice was "to drink lots of coffee and get used to little sleep." They talked a bit more about frame rates, layering, tweening and some other stuff I didn't understand at the time.


When I asked about art training and talent, they told me that animators don't need to be the best artists, they need to be technicians of their craft and that craft is animating. They said there was one or two guys around that were the concept guys, the pro artists, that painted up the basic concepts.


It was the animation technicians responsibility to bring it to life. Of course that was many years ago and not verbatim, but you get the general idea.


Am I the best artist? Not even close. But I know good tools when I see them and what it takes to put out effective animation.


Bottom line, tools are extremely important to an animator. You can be the best manga artist, conceptual artist or even the best prop/scenery artist. If you don't have the proper tools that flow with the concepts you are trying to develop, you are doomed from the start.

Post by Tiles // Apr 27, 2006, 10:34pm

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[quote]Bottom line, tools are extremely important to an animator. You can be the best manga artist, conceptual artist or even the best prop/scenery artist. If you don't have the proper tools that flow with the concepts you are trying to develop, you are doomed from the start.[/qoute]


I partially disagree. Sure, good and working tools is really very important. But it´s just the half of the truth. I have seen crap made with even the most professional tools. And i have seen amazing stuff made with the crappiest tools. It´s the one who clicks the mouse buttons ... ;)


You are somehow correct though. A good artist with good tools gives the best results :)

Post by TomG // Apr 28, 2006, 3:57am

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The question is not whether you "can" make an animation, it is how quickly and easily you can make an animation.


A good animator can make an animation with a camera, a piece of paper, and a pencil. These are perfectly "proper tools" for making world class animation - you could make people laugh, gasp in amazement, or weep, with the animation you produce via story and artwork.


Of course the process of making it will be slow. If you aim to compete with someone else making animation in some way, then the "proper" tools becomes an issue of ease and speed - not of what is possible since anything is possible with any toolset given the time, but of how easy and quick you can do it.


It is fair to say commercial work has been done in tS, and could still be done in tS. Oliver Rohe showed how stunning character work can be in tS (he didn't go for photo-real characters, but he did what is more important, which is give the characters life, personality and emotion). Similarly, Vinny Carvalho did the same, including hair and capes too. I was also always impressed with Mikko Ronkainen's work, again not aiming to be a Spirits Within realistic thing, rather just setting out to be a great animation. And lots of other good artists too like Spencer Britton and Saul Greenberg.


Thinking of that, the Big Break contest produced lots of nice work (it is still there, http://www.caligari.com/Store/Special/anim_contest/index.html ).


As for things being too slow to download, no idea what happened there, but that is an internet issue, not an issue with trueSpace's animation tools ;) Do try again in case it was internet congestion etc.


So, the upshot is that those who argue that tS tools can produce commercial animation are correct. Those who argue that those tools need improving are correct. Both sides are correct :)


The answer is of course that we are re-writing the tools not to make them "proper" but to make them faster to use, more intuitive to use, easier to use, and so on. Sure people can and have produced great animation with trueSpace, but soon they will be able to produce equally good animation with less time and effort. Which will allow them to make better animation as their effort can go into an improved end result rather than into using the tools. And also more people will be able to produce animation, since the effort required to use them will go down and so they will become more accessible.


Everyone wins :)


HTH!

Tom

Post by jamesmc // Apr 28, 2006, 5:46am

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Interesting animation contest. I didn't see the requirements of the contest. In other words, it didn't specify what software was to be used to compete in the contest.


Spencer Britton appears to be using 3D studio Max at least according to his most available resume. His last mention of Caligari tS with animation was in 1999. The video he made which won was done in 2003. I doubt seriously he used tS5 to make that animation. Perhaps some of the models.


Saul Greenberg, the other winner. I don't know if it's Professor Greenberg of Canada, head of a University Consortium called Group Lab, which uses students and staff to work on Human Interaction with Computers. Or it could be the Saul Greenberg of London who is a professional scene designer. Could be another Saul Greenberg as well.


His contest entry was also in 2003 and there was no mention of the software he used. The models in the video look surprisingly like Efrontier's (Curious Labs) Poser models.


A Saul Greenberg does have a tutorial on the Caligari Website about animation, done in tS5. Although, if he is the one that make the rolling tricycle, the one I have from tS5 drags its rear wheels, spokes parallel to the ground.


Caligari may have sponsored the contest, but there is no mention of exclusive use of Caligari products used in the production of the video animations. Post production work is fine, doesn't have to be Caligari. But the mechanics of the animation of the characters should have been done in tS. Were these done in tS5 in 2003?

Post by jamesmc // Apr 28, 2006, 5:49am

jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
[quote]Bottom line, tools are extremely important to an animator. You can be the best manga artist, conceptual artist or even the best prop/scenery artist. If you don't have the proper tools that flow with the concepts you are trying to develop, you are doomed from the start.[/qoute]


I partially disagree. Sure, good and working tools is really very important. But it´s just the half of the truth. I have seen crap made with even the most professional tools. And i have seen amazing stuff made with the crappiest tools. It´s the one who clicks the mouse buttons ... ;)


You are somehow correct though. A good artist with good tools gives the best results :)


Somehow correct? Interesting use of words.

Post by mrbones // Apr 28, 2006, 6:31am

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Jamesmc,

What is your email address?


Experienced Animators? Really? Who are they?

Mr. Bones maybe? Tell him to give me s o m e t h i n g for the 199.00 dollars I spent on an order from his website. Or was that jacked with his forums and email? Someone had a good time with my money...

Post by Emmanuel // Apr 28, 2006, 6:46am

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Mrbones, you can send an email from Jamesmc's profile page.

Post by mrbones // Apr 28, 2006, 6:53am

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Emmanual, I have done that before, last time and never recieved a response.


Once Mr. Jamesmc posts his real email or sends it to me in private, then I can investigate what exactly happened with his order.


Mrbones, you can send an email from Jamesmc's profile page.

Post by jamesmc // Apr 28, 2006, 8:02am

jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
I don't post my real email on forums. Just the other day I got an email addressed to 'Otto Pilot.' The only forum I have placed this on is the Caligari Forum. Otto Pilot is an animated cartoon character I created a few years ago.


Forget about the software I ordered, I found that my bank cancelled the transaction without notifying me. Some sort of anti-fraud thing I had forgotten about for confirming purchases over the Internet over $100.00. When I looked at my monthly transactions it was not subtracted from the total amount, but negated by some mysterious code. When I called the bank they explained to me what had happened.


So, I owe Mr. Bones a huge public apology. The order cancellation was a fluff from my bank and nothing to do with his website.


I'm very sorry Mr. Bones, I will address such issues in private in the future.
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