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tS 7.x
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
tS 7.x // Rants and Raves
Post by westly // Oct 3, 2006, 8:47am
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westly
Total Posts: 12
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I have to say it for myself and anyone else not yet heard - I hate tS 7.x. It is a complete and unecessary revamp of a good product with a good interface.
It is buggy and I know because I have the lab pack and it crashes on all my lab computers regularly. It interfers with tS 6.6 on the same machines and after uninstalling it on 12 machines in the lab all 12 machines had at least a 30% speed increase and tS 6.6 quit crashing so much as well as other software working better.
I find the 7.x interface extremely confusing, the icons are to small, with no real indication that it is a improved product. I've been using tS since version 2.x and I have to say this new version is the worse one yet. What were they thinking. Did the programmers get a wild hair one day and go crazy with the code. I'm not a programmer and I know that it is a lot of work to create something like trueSpace, but come on guys/gals, did you have to change everything at once.
Everyone whom I have showed the new tS 7.x to has not liked it or has not been able to figure out the simplest things so far. I think tS 7.x is just too much change for an easy to use and learn product. More time would have been better spent, fixing bugs, enhancing the render engine and animation system. Now that would have made my year.
Oh well, I'll stick to tS 6.6 for now and wait and see where trueSpace is headed. I guess it is time as some have already done, to move to Maya, 3DMax, or Lightwave, geez another software interface to learn, but still easier than trying to figure out the tS 7.x interface. What a shame as I have always loved, and still do v6.6's easy learning curve.
No Flame wars please, I'm speaking for myself, not everyone else. |
Post by splinters // Oct 3, 2006, 11:29am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I appreciate your candid opinions Westly but a few points need to be addressed.
Firstly, it is no secret that I designed the icons for tS7 and I am happy with the job I did...but I have no issues with users opinions of my work.
I believe this is the first time Caligari have 'commissioned' someone to design icons and that is why it looks so radically different-the icons have changed little since tS1.
The 'small' icons are being addressed and I found that most early complaints were about the icons being too big! Still, I posted a large toolbar to resolve this issue and the UI ca be customised.
Ironically, all the tS6.6 interface is there in the model side and many, many of the icons are the same as the 6.6 ones but larger and using a consistent colour scheme across the UI.
I am also a tester for Caligari and joined the team way before my icon work and I much prefered the tS7 UI to 6.6 even before I started producing icons.
I experience no more problems with 7.1 than I did with tS6.6 and I am sorry to hear that you find it troublesome.
I cannot speak for all those who migrated to other software but those I spoke to mentioned the fact that Caligari wasn't moving radically forward with tS. Seems you cannot win with this one...:o
No flame wars here...just my opinion of tS7 which seems the polar opposite of yours. Isn't it always the case... |
Post by westly // Oct 3, 2006, 2:27pm
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westly
Total Posts: 12
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Thanks for the clarifications Splinters. The icons themselves look good, just too small but I didn't know you designed the icons for tS7.
I am using v7.0 so that may be the issue with performane problems I've encountered. I haven't found a way to upgrade to v7.1 yet, I'll keep looking.
I guess I'm resistant to change when it is so radical from one version to the next. I had high hopes for v7 and maybe I'm just going to have to work with it some more to give it a fair test.
Is the larger toolbar available to anyone, or only proteam members. I was a proteam member for a year and there was only one model set and one or two training courses released the whole year, so I refused to pay such a large sum for that again. Maybe only proteam members get the benefits.
I don't really want to migrate to other software so maybe with an update or two I won't have to.
Thanks for your candid reply. I'm glad you don't take things personally as I don't usually either.
Keep up the good work, and all the best to you.
Westly |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 3, 2006, 3:24pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I found the 7.x interface rather difficult at first as well. For a while I stuck with the 6.6 side (modeler) but as I worked with the player side more I found it much better to work with and more stable than modeler side. One huge improvement is that Player side solves the problem with the mesh tearing away when you get too close. Apparently the bridge may well be the source of many of the crashes. I found most of the times I crashed it was because I created "illegal" geometry on modeler side when using plugins or the add edges tool and player couldn't handle it. If you're using modeler side exclusively you'll probably find turning off the bridge would help a lot.
I think part of the difficulty in interface extends from the new archetecture (Player side) not having many of the tools to make it functional at modeling by itself. So the user is forced to switch back and forth constantly.
I also found the link editor rather confusing at first until I watched some of the video training courses. Heck when I was doing beta testing on 7.0 as part of ProTeam, I couldn't even figure out that the orange triangles were how you'd get out of an object. That was thoroughly frustrating! (I think a tree view would've helped with this.)
Then came the issue with the nVidia drivers and crash on load... good thing there are people out there hacking the beta drivers to work with laptops... *sigh*
I think I understand why Caligari released 7.x like they did. It'd been a long time since a release and many people were already moving on. They needed to stir up some interest and buzz, and they were probably really excited about their new archetecture and wanted to show it off before it was too late.
That said while I understand the reasoning behind "the bridge" I think it sure feels like mistake especially since it violates the whole spirit of the trueSpace interface and makes it seem horribly complicated. Also now that I'm getting used to the new interface I'd be more than happy to see the old 6.6 side seperated out entirely to let the player side stand on it's own. Of course Player side doesn't have the functionality yet to command the price of the old 6.6 tools and cover the costs of the licensing. And if I'd been confronted with the new completely alien Player side interface on it's own maybe I would have felt different? In some ways it was nice being able to go back to old reliable tools that I knew how they worked.
All that said I am very happy that Caligari is starting from scratch and creating a new modern platform for trueSpace. I think the new poly modeling tools are definitely going in the right direction. I'm not sure why they implemented the ones they did first though... when we're still missing basic functionality like edge extrudes and poly splits... :rolleyes:
Also the rumor is that the new 7.x core allows them to build the new animation tools that everyone has been wanting for a long time. So while initially I was really dissapointed by 7.x, assuming Caligari can come through on the 7.5 promises, I'm now pretty optimistic for the future.
I feel that with the right tools the new 7.x core has the potential to compete with the big boys. Where as 6.6 could never do that. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 3, 2006, 5:02pm
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Jack Edwards
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Oh yeah I forgot to mention. Make sure you leave point edit mode in either Player or Modeler before switching between them because the point edit tools won't work until you exit and re-enter point edit mode to reset them. That was another thing that made it frustrating to use at first, but once I figured that out, it was fairly easy to avoid. |
Post by stan // Oct 3, 2006, 5:33pm
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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jto upgrade to v7.1 yet, I'll keep looking.
Westly..the ts7.11 files should be on your cart download page replacing the old ts7.0 files..even if you had a boxed version
j_edwards..my edit modes work fine..never heard of that complaint before..
I think those tabs on top had people changing configurations alot ..needlessly..it should defaut to scenes not layouts ..less confusion..then icons stay in the same place to learn..how often do you really need to change layouts..find one you like and stick with it..learn the new tools..there is not that many..
the 7.5 interface is supposed to be greatly improved..hopefully with expandable toolbars..better ways to deal with custom toolbars. ways to have windows that autohide :) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 3, 2006, 7:05pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Yeah and the default layout tab is right next to the player and model tabs, so if you miss and click it there goes your layout... done that a few times now...
Hmm... odd that I'd be the only person with the point edit issue.
Hope 7.5 is coming out before Christmas... Then again I do want the new tools to be stable...
maybe we could get a poly modeling tools patch in the meantime...;)
-Jack. |
Post by Alien // Oct 4, 2006, 9:20pm
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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More time would have been better spent, fixing bugs, enhancing the render engine and animation system.
Actually, it wouldn't. With the tS4 code-base [which, IIRC is what 6.6 is built on], Caligari had programmed themselves into a corner, such that fixing bugs & making enhancements was nigh-on impossible, hence the need to remake tS from the ground up. I know it looks like the Modeler & Player are all part of the same program, but they're not. tS7 is the Player, Link Editor, etc, & then there's the Bridge which allows tS7 to use 6.6 as 1 honking great big plugin, as the Player does not have all the requisite tools yet. The bridge also allows those of us who have purchased other plugins to use them, as they would not work in the Player.
Is the larger toolbar available to anyone, or only proteam members.
Anyone (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/forumdisplay.php?f=16). :)
(I think a tree view would've helped with this.)
Absolutely!
Yeah and the default layout tab is right next to the player and model tabs, so if you miss and click it there goes your layout... done that a few times now...
Yeah, but it's not a problem if you save your layout, you can just switch back to it. |
Post by westly // Dec 14, 2006, 10:35am
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westly
Total Posts: 12
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I finally have v7.11 but can't seem to find the larger toolbar that Splinter talked about previously. Anyone know where I can get it. The little icons at 1280x1024 are sill hard to see.
Thanks,
Dr Westly |
Post by stan // Dec 14, 2006, 12:44pm
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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westly you can find the large icon toolbar posted in this thread..
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=292 |
Post by westly // Jan 4, 2007, 4:36am
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westly
Total Posts: 12
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Thanks for the link to the larger tool icons.
Sadly after spending a couple of weeks with v7.1.1 and really trying to learn it I believe that tS v7.1.1 is at best a failure. It is much more difficult to do simple things and having to learn a whole new UI after 10 years is not very effective.
If I wanted to learn a whole new interface I would start learning Maya or 3D Max or Lightwave. At least these products are usually making bug fixes and UI refinements and not forcing completely new UI conventions on their user base. The UI is so convoluted to old tS experienced UI users that I'm not sure how anyone gets anything done with it.
I've also found that running tS 6.6 and tS 7.1.1 on the same machine causes slow-downs in both programs and various lock-ups and re-boots. I’ve tested this on at least 50 computers of varying configurations and it is the same on all of them.
Other than tS 7.1.1 being a new version number there is no useful quality I can think of to recommend it. I have essentially wasted $499.00 of my department budget for a lab pack upgrade to v7.1.1 that I will never use.
tS 7.1.1 may claim to handle large scenes better on some computer systems, but I have maxed out machines in my lab and it runs dog slow. I've done all the tweaks and updates and etc and still it runs slow.
I believe that bug fixes and enhancements should still be done for tS 6.6. There is an installed user base for this version and it should not be abandoned to tS 7.1.1 and its cutesy UI and player/modeler contraption.
Since I teach tS to college students, for fun and as part of an Interactive Media program, I find that I’ve spent much money over the last 5-6 years on trueSpace products. I have recommended them to my students and many have purchased trueSpace themselves. However I can not recommend trueSpace v7.1.1 to them and only recommend v6.6 if they desire to have a relatively inexpensive 3D program to have fun with at home. If they are serious about learning 3D for a profession I steer them to Maya, 3D Max, or Lightwave instead. I had high hopes for v7.1.1 but my hopes were dashed on the alter of fancy and inconsistent UI modifications.
I guess I’ve ranted enough this year about this and will hopefully refrain from further posts except to those directed at me. Thanks for listening to one users rant.
drwestly |
Post by Alien // Mar 7, 2007, 9:47am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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Sadly after spending a couple of weeks with v7.1.1 and really trying to learn it I believe that tS v7.1.1 is at best a failure. It is much more difficult to do simple things and having to learn a whole new UI after 10 years is not very effective.
I wouldn't call 7.11 a failure, more like a stepping stone to 7.5. As for the UI, I'm not normally all that comfortable with change [in general], but even I have managed to get used to the UI of 7.11. I really do think you're making a bigger fuss about it than it deserves.
If I wanted to learn a whole new interface I would start learning Maya or 3D Max or Lightwave. At least these products are usually making bug fixes and UI refinements and not forcing completely new UI conventions on their user base.
So you're telling me that in the history of the apps you mentioned, they've always had the same UI? No major changes at all?
The UI is so convoluted to old tS experienced UI users that I'm not sure how anyone gets anything done with it.
Considering how many people have made the move from 6.6 [or earlier] to 7.x without making a big fuss about how terrible it is that the prog they know & love has changed, I have to wonder why you seem to have so much difficulty with it that others don't.
I've also found that running tS 6.6 and tS 7.1.1 on the same machine causes slow-downs in both programs and various lock-ups and re-boots. I’ve tested this on at least 50 computers of varying configurations and it is the same on all of them.
They're not intended to be ran at the same time, though I've done it without problems. You do know that 7.11 has a larger memory requirement than 6.6, right? with the Bridge enabled, it basically uses double the memory it would normally use for a given scene.
Other than tS 7.1.1 being a new version number there is no useful quality I can think of to recommend it. I have essentially wasted $499.00 of my department budget for a lab pack upgrade to v7.1.1 that I will never use.
There's a whole bunch of good stuff that's new in 7.11.
HDRI in LightWorks [I think V-Ray has HDRI as well, but I'm not sure as I don't have V-Ray].
An extra render engine included in tS, VirtuaLight.
Multi-pass rendering is now built in [used to have to make a seperate purchase of the iPak to get it].
The Player can handle larger scenes than 6.6, & move them around faster, provided the machine it's being run on has a fully DirectX 9 complient graphics card.
& a bunch of other stuff (http://www.caligari.com/products/trueSpace/ts7/Brochure/specification.asp?Cate=BSpecification).
tS 7.1.1 may claim to handle large scenes better on some computer systems, but I have maxed out machines in my lab and it runs dog slow. I've done all the tweaks and updates and etc and still it runs slow.
& were the graphics cards in these machines fully DirectX 9 compatible? Do these machines have at least 1GB of RAM? [2GB would be preferable]
I believe that bug fixes and enhancements should still be done for tS 6.6. There is an installed user base for this version and it should not be abandoned to tS 7.1.1 and its cutesy UI and player/modeler contraption.
It's been said countless times by Caligari personnel, as well as myself & other forum members, but people like yourself obviously don't read those threads, or just don't want to listen:
There will be no updates or enhancements done to 6.6. At all. Ever.
To put it simply, Caligari coded themselves into a corner with the old code-base. It cannot be fixed, therefore they are not going to try. They made the decision to start over from scratch - this was the only choice they had. The Player [old name, in 7.5 it's called Workspace], the Link Editor, etc, are all the new code. What you see as the Modeler in 7.11 is in fact 6.6 being used as 1 great big plugin - a plugin that will be removed once all the tools have been recreated/moved to the new code-base. So, in effect they are "fixing" the old probs, just not the way you want them to.
I had high hopes for v7.1.1 but my hopes were dashed on the alter of fancy and inconsistent UI modifications.
The only reason it seems inconsistent to you, is because what you look at & think of as 1 program is in fact 2 - the old 1 being used as a plugin inside the new 1, to provide functionality that does not yet exist in the new 1. Once all the functionality of the old 1 [AKA 6.6, or the Modeler] has been recreated/moved to the new code the Modeler will be removed & it will be 1 nice & consistent UI. |
Post by splinters // Mar 7, 2007, 10:41am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I never understood problems with 7.0 UI. I simply updated the icons to try to keep them familiar yet looking fresh and new. Use a full screen layout and things are pretty much where you remember them from 6.6
Still, 7.5 UI does look very nice...;)
As for old bug fixes, you are mostly right but a few things are more stable in 7.1 model side than 6.6.
And yes, switch bridge off and it should run just like 6.6.
The leap from 7.0 to 7.5 is quite a big one...not just a tidy of the UI, as you can see from Roman's various blogs. |
Post by Alien // Mar 7, 2007, 10:50am
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Alien
Total Posts: 1231
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As for old bug fixes, you are mostly right but a few things are more stable in 7.1 model side than 6.6.
I seem to remember reading that the [old] bones had gotten worse in 7.11 modeler, but I've only fiddled briefly with them, so can't really judge for myself.
The leap from 7.0 to 7.5 is quite a big one...not just a tidy of the UI, as you can see from Roman's various blogs.
Blog shmog, I'll be playing with the real thing later tonight, just gotta finish catching up with the forum [nearly done]. :D |
Post by GraySho // Mar 10, 2007, 4:32am
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Considering how many people have made the move from 6.6 [or earlier] to 7.x without making a big fuss about how terrible it is that the prog they know & love has changed, I have to wonder why you seem to have so much difficulty with it that others don't.
I can't agree with that. Actually a lot of people have tried 7.x and were going back to 6.6 because there's no big improvement except rendering. Of course there's the new core which makes things possible which were not before, but there's not that much you can do with player yet. I understand that it was necessary to release a new version but I knew it would dissapoint a lot of people before it was released (I was ProTeam member back then). The new User Interface was one of my major concerns, and to me it looked like something you just can't release to the public, honestly. I've said so quite often, and it seems that Caligari has listened. The news posted in the Captain's Blog look very promising, and the UI looks much more uniform now. I hope that with 7.5 I can finally switch to the new version without going back to 6.6, because right now I feel like I have to bite the sour apple just to have HDRI with Lightworks. And that is about all I use with tS7.x. |
Post by westly // Mar 19, 2007, 6:17am
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westly
Total Posts: 12
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Thanks for the comments. I get now some of the change reasons for tS 7.1 that I didn't understand before therefore, I will also look at tS 7.5 when it is released to see how the UI looks.
About the machines I use tS 6.6 and tS 7.1 on they are:
AMD X2 4800+, 4GB RAM, 160GB SATA2 HD, ATI X1600 PRO PCI-E 256mb video card.
I'm pretty sure these specs are enough for trueSpace v6 or v7.
I've been experimenting with Blender and Maya and I did not mean to imply that these other products never change their UI's, but that with trueSpace there has been a consistent type of UI for ages that was easy to learn. And yes Blender and Maya take some major learning labor.
I do appreciate all the replies though and thanks for clearing things up for me with them. |
Post by westly // Apr 8, 2007, 4:05pm
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westly
Total Posts: 12
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Ok, I've ordered the tS 7.5 upgrade today. I see that the tS 6.6 interface is now included as well as a better v7 interface default option. The Icons look much better and I hope they are not so small this time as it is hard on us old bi-focal guys...:)
Therefore as others have commented ts7.1.1 was somewhat of an experiment as far as I can tell and v7.5 is the real upgrade to v6.6 so once I've used v7.5 for a little while I will post again and comment on the improvements.
I'm still here and still a trueSpace believer despite all my rants in the past about v7.x. |
Post by splinters // Apr 8, 2007, 11:27pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Icons in 7.5 are 26x26 pixels-32bit with Alpha channel so very nice and clear. UI is much improved over tS7.11 and I thought I would never say that (I am rather fond of 7.11).
I do believe that 7.5 could easily have been named trueSpace 8 considering what you get in that release. The jump from 6.6 to 7.0 was like walking to the local shop to pick up a paper. Jump to 7.5 is like getting on a plane to jet off on your holidays...:D |
Post by stan // Apr 9, 2007, 4:46am
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stan
Total Posts: 1240
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Splinters, with that dark background your nice icons are not that clear..when they are on, yes, but when not selected they are fairly drab. some are hard to see in your post [7.5 ui]. I will know better when the program is on my pc.
I still hope there is an option to change that look back to the old one.
also did they make the toolbars expand like in td66 so all icons in a toolbar can all be seen at the same time, as promised ?
as for calling it ts8, I don't think so, there is too much still on model side..this gives caligari the possibility to call it 8 when everything is in the workspace..its still a work in progress. or will it take even longer to implement all the old tools in the workspace? |
Post by splinters // Apr 9, 2007, 8:08am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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..also did they make the toolbars expand like in td66 so all icons in a toolbar can all be seen at the same time, as promised ?
They sure did...in model side anyway..:D |
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