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Insanity!!!
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Insanity!!! // Rants and Raves
Post by Humdinger // Apr 10, 2007, 2:13am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?p=28890#post28890
if you go to the thread above and scroll down you will see a post from Roman.
[QUOTE=roman;28890]I believe you could create facial rigs and use them for facial animation.QUOTE]
Not to start a war, but it is comments like the above that drive me insane.
You believe...?
I would think that the answer would be a simple 'yes'. But it is not that simple. I have created many a facial animation rig in my day..using TS with a particular pulg-in and I will tell you that it is not that easy.
You must have certain key function regarding the bones and joints or you just end up with this giant mess of joints and bones…half of which do nothing.
So if the founder and president of the company can not answer this with a hands down 'yes'. just what are people to do...
Guess..?
Layout 500.00 and after a month return said item...?
Just insane...
Perfect examples...
I know this sounds so simple...but have we confirmed that you can skin multiple mesh objects to a single skeleton...?
Question...can I attach sub-skeletal rigs to a skeleton and not lose animation data and or vertices paint assignment data...?
Such a simple question and never a simple answer.
In one word…..insanity
--
in-san-i-ty: The act of engaging in an identical process ; repeatedly , in hopes of generating a different result |
Post by prodigy // Apr 10, 2007, 3:17am
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ehem..... my opinion? i think when Roman sais... "I belive" is like he thinks its totally posible, he is not a tester just the CEO :)
I remember using Motion Studio bones to move a face..And that works much better than the FA.
Now, why we cant use the same technic to move a face with the new rig system???
And i dont have the BETA or 7.5 yet to test and i never use Any TS bones on a face, but i Belive I, You, We can use to animate a face..
Rippley, Belivet it or Not! ;) |
Post by Humdinger // Apr 10, 2007, 4:02am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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Many who know me say I should have been a lawyer.
So..I like my answers to be 'yes' and 'no' as often as possible.
PS
In case you missed it the title implies that I am also insane for still complaining about stuff like this.
:D |
Post by Humdinger // Apr 10, 2007, 4:13am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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ehem..... my opinion? i think when Roman sais... "I belive" is like he thinks its totally posible, he is not a tester just the CEO :)
I remember using Motion Studio bones to move a face..And that works much better than the FA.
Now, why we cant use the same technic to move a face with the new rig system???
And i dont have the BETA or 7.5 yet to test and i never use Any TS bones on a face, but i Belive I, You, We can use to animate a face..
Rippley, Belivet it or Not! ;)
Shhhsss..I am trying not to say Motion Studio. ;)
Also a simple qualified 'yes' to my question regarding attaching one detailed rig to another would answer most of that. A hair rig that I can use between characters..a teeth and tougne rig...eye lid rigs...then just attach those rigs to whatever rig I have as my base biped...
If not you end up with a single rig that has hundreds of bones..? All connected in one gaint chain...no attached but literally connected...?
As with all things you do sometimes have to try some very elaborate stuff to expose a weakness in something, and up to this point most samples relating to the CA tools have been very basic at best (setting aside the very cool physics interaction) though as stated elsewhere make me jump up in down in delight.
Of course much of this would be mute if we had even a basic Morph Editor (cough..see thread in Interactive Artwork... ts Morpher 1.0):rolleyes: |
Post by Bobbins // Apr 10, 2007, 6:13am
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Maybe I could rig and animate it, Roman could not rig and animate it, but Roman believes that you might be able to rig and animate it? Good animation is hard work - nobody becomes an animator if they want an easy ride.
Besides, tS 7.5 is only a point release, after all and you have to walk before you can run. |
Post by jayr // Apr 10, 2007, 11:26am
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i think it's been said somewhere else but the beta testers don't get a chance to produce detailed animations because of time constraints, their time is better used in bug hunting.
A lot of the skill in using 3d packages is using your imagination and pushing the software to do stuff it's not totally designed to do, from the look of the animation features i'd say it does look possible to rig a face even though caligari haven't said it specifically, the whole soft selection and painting gradients of infulence seem perfectly suited to making facial muscles, it might just take a bit more time than an interface dedicated to it.
we had that in Facial Animator, and that disapointed a lot of people (me included). sometimes your best work comes when when the technique is not handed to you on a plate. |
Post by Humdinger // Apr 10, 2007, 1:20pm
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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Maybe I could rig and animate it, Roman could not rig and animate it, but Roman believes that you might be able to rig and animate it? Good animation is hard work - nobody becomes an animator if they want an easy ride.
Besides, tS 7.5 is only a point release, after all and you have to walk before you can run.
So then maybe you can help me out here bobbins.
- If I have the basic biped rig I have seen in the last few TS 7.5 demo videos
- I then create another custom rig for say just the hair (using hair only as an example)
- Can I then attach that custom rig to the 'head bone' of the bi-ped rig..?
- If so can I further animate the hair rig independent of the 'head bone' which moves the entire custom hair rig as the head bone moves about...?
I hate to sound some simple and what not, but it's one of only a few things I have been asking since we started to get some information
i think it's been said somewhere else but the beta testers don't get a chance to produce detailed animations because of time constraints, their time is better used in bug hunting.
A lot of the skill in using 3d packages is using your imagination and pushing the software to do stuff it's not totally designed to do, .
Well of course that's why most of us are even here! :)
We're 'nuts' like that..
but there is a point that things either can not be or become so cumbersome that are totally impractical. Took a whole lot of drum beating over the last 2 years to get a certain TS 6.6 plug-in improved...and heck a few phone calls too..!
But we did do it...
PS
I am not an animator of any kind..but i do enjoy the challenge of creating skeletons...after that I pose it a bit...check out some extremes.... and say
"..if i knew what i was doing, I would be all set after this..."
:)
Image Edit by Admin: images must not exceed 800x600 please
-1 rig with
-28 total Sub skeletons
and a total of
-128 bones! |
Post by RichLevy // Apr 10, 2007, 8:08pm
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RichLevy
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The problem with some of your questions are they put a beta tester in the area of violating the NDA. We are not supposed to talk about the specifics of what is happening in the beta area or un announced features... but if I were trying to animate the character you have there I would try to simiplify the rig some, 28 sub skeletons is a bit over the top, no matter what program you are using.
The shoulder harnesses and the hip belt I would try to include into the body mesh. The gold chain and medallion I might try to include as a physics simutaion, the sword can be attached to the body. The hat you can do several different ways also depending on the movement you are looking for.
Keep in mind this is basically V1.0 of the new character animation tools, there is a lot of power packed in here, some things you are going to be able to do easily enough other things you will not. Most things you will be able to do, but you might have to be more creative with how you do it(examplae look what Jack is doing with the Morphing script he is working on)...
Sorry I can not be more specific than this.
Rich |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 10, 2007, 9:17pm
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Jack Edwards
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Good post Rich!
Another thing to consider Humdinger is that even if "sub-skeletons" isn't directly implemented via UI in 7.5 (I honestly don't know one way or the other), considering the way everything else is constructed in the new 7.0 implementation my guess is that it should be a simple matter in the Link Editor to link up the transformation matrixes and effectively "glue" the skeletons or parts there of together.
Heck if we wanted to get complicated about it, a script that calculates a surface normal could effectively "glue" or "magnet" an object or bone structure to directly to a single face on the mesh just by feeding that surface normal into the object's transformation matrix.
Because of the way ts7 is put together everything seems to be be part of hierarchical groupings, each with their own transformation matrix. Like with my morpher changes you make to scale, rotation, and position are local to the coordinate system within that object. So matching the position, rotation, scale of another object is just a matter of linking up their matrices. :D
-Jack. |
Post by Tiles // Apr 10, 2007, 10:05pm
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i think it's been said somewhere else but the beta testers don't get a chance to produce detailed animations because of time constraints, their time is better used in bug hunting.
Ah, now i know why there was never a stable TS around. How can you catch bugs when you don't use the tools to its limits? Which means you HAVE to use them in a way where you reach the limits, doing at least one detailed animation in this case, to stumble across the quirks. Else you simply don't notice them. Just checking if all buttons are there is no bug hunting :rolleyes: |
Post by Bobbins // Apr 10, 2007, 10:29pm
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Just because you don't see samples posted with characters rigged with 100s of bones and limbs does not mean that the software is not pushed to it's limits during testing (actually, it's pushed beyond it's limits - that's how you know where the limits are).
The fact that somebody might rig a complex character and push it until it breaks certainly does not mean that they will then go on to waste the next couple of weeks working on an animation just so you can watch a pretty avi file. That's not the way to more stable software, only eye candy. Moving on and pushing another area of the software is much better use of a tester's time.
Of course, somebody will probably try and twist the above into saying that the software isn't used in a sensible workflow while being tested, but they would be wrong again. It is. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 10, 2007, 11:13pm
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I agree Bobbins. I think it's both important to spot check specific features as well as general workflow testing.
I wonder if in past releases more emphasis may have been placed on specific features than workflow testing though! :p
-Jack. |
Post by Tiles // Apr 11, 2007, 12:11am
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Oops, didn`t want to offend any of the beta testers. I hope you didn't get it wrong. I know how hard beta testing can be. And i know that you all put an immense effort into it. I appreciate it :)
It's just that the best beta test is to work with a software up to the finished result a few times too. Not just following the single tools way one by one, having an eye if all is functional. Or overloading some functions to have a look at which point it falls apart. But also the normal workflow way with all its needs and steps to finish a work. This test part also often shows some footangles you never have thougth about before. This test part should lead to a showable result though. Which isn't there. And that's what i wonder a bit about ;) |
Post by Bobbins // Apr 11, 2007, 1:18am
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Most teams of software testers are a diverse lot. You usually have a mixture of people who will use the software in very different ways. Some people like to dig into picky details and spot stuff that 99% of others will miss. Some people like to use the software in their everyday jobs and see what's good and bad. Other people are just evil and will push the software to do things it was never designed to do just for the fun of seeing what happens when you are right on the edge.
Most software development is like cooking a meal. For a long time, all the ingredients are there, but they are being prepared and are unsuitable for consumption. There's a cooking process where you can see everything coming together nicely but still wouldn't want to taste it. At the last minute, everything is suddenly ready at the right time and the banquet can begin. Expecting a result when the cooks are still working in the kitchen isn't very realistic. |
Post by jayr // Apr 11, 2007, 2:05am
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Ah, now i know why there was never a stable TS around. How can you catch bugs when you don't use the tools to its limits? Which means you HAVE to use them in a way where you reach the limits, doing at least one detailed animation in this case, to stumble across the quirks. Else you simply don't notice them. Just checking if all buttons are there is no bug hunting :rolleyes:
What i ment by that wasn't that they won't try to rig characters and try all the new animation features to the limit but that they might not render it to the level of it being impressive enough to show in pre-release.
A beta tester might have to leave his computer rendering for days to render a really good animation, but they could just watch it in real-time to see if anything was wrong or render it at a low resolution to check it renders ok, but seriously, would you want to show someone an animation you'd done with new tools rendered at 384x288? wouldn't show your abilities off too well, or the software for that matter. |
Post by Tiles // Apr 11, 2007, 2:10am
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But how can you be sure that no ingredients are missing, that the current ingredients are the right ones, and that all the needed pottery, pot, pan and tools are there and functional before you haven't cooked a complete meal? May it even be a simple one.
All previous versions of TS, including TS 7.11 had and have lots of bugs and quirks where i thought to myself, hey, how can this one be overlooked. That's impossible. With normal workflow you don`t have a chance to overlook it, because it is essential. And that's why i posted here. To ask if this is really true. I simply have the feeling that the normal workflow test part is dramatically ignored.
Hmm, i think i stop here. Seems that i simply have another opinion. A hail to the variety :) |
Post by Humdinger // Apr 11, 2007, 2:29am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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First a thank you to anyone that has chimed in here...much appreciated.
So many people to quote, but would rather keep it short.
In the end I just wanted to know about multiple skins and multiple rigs and though I completely understand the NDA and what not it just makes zero sense to not be able to answer those two questions with a yes or no.
As I mentioned in other posts if the way TS 7.5 works now the traditional idea of a sub skeleton may no longer apply (due to the LE etc) then hey that's an answer.
But regardless, I guess like others I will await the demo and go from there, though if Jack can get that morph mixer working...hmmmmmmm
PS - I never intend or intended any slight on any of the testers |
Post by Humdinger // Apr 11, 2007, 6:20am
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Humdinger
Total Posts: 319
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As one that likes to be clear just thought to add this...
Back when TS 7 - Rosetta was annouced one of the first things I did was to look up just a little background on some of the key names I was seeing as part of the team...after the anniversary party in New York.
Sure there were a few old stand-bys (good bless them) but also a few new names, at least to me.
Like TomasB - Tomas Bujank
Now I was not snopping around I just wanted to see if there was anything about Tomas on the web via a baisc search on google.
The goal - just to see if his listed background gave me a good feeling. This was shared at the time with a few other members/users.
And.....
I was extremely happy ! Good Stuff! I like it!
So i guess it seems a bit frustrating to know that the people invloved not only know what they are doing, but also what everyone esle is doing as well and what seems to me to be a very basic question goes unanswered ...or answered with a 2 sentence 'maybe'. :)
Which....
Drives Me...
Insane...
Well not really insane!..just to be 'clear'.;) |
Post by Délé // Apr 11, 2007, 7:14am
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Yep, all of the tS developers that I have had the pleasure of speaking with are all not only very competent but also quite nice. They are a bright bunch to be sure. :) And I'm not just saying that, I truely mean it. Those guys know what's what. ;) |
Post by RichLevy // Apr 11, 2007, 7:44am
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I second, or is that thirds :D this. Amazing bunch of guys we have doing this.
@Tiles
Be nice to the beta testers, we work for free... we try to catch everything sometimes things just don't get reported, fixed or seen... It doesn't make it right, that's just the way it is sometimes. Bobbins put it very well in his post...
Rich |
Post by Tiles // Apr 11, 2007, 8:08am
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As posted above, my goal wasn't to offend you as the beta testers. I beg your pardon if i did so. I highly respect all of you and the work you do. And i appreciate your work :)
It's just i have the feeling that i noticed something that may be useful to even improve beta testing and so improve trueSpace at all. I don't say you do a bad job as the beta testers. I say, hey, there is a step missing that can even improve your work. In my opinion and experience a very important step.
Question is this now: Should i be quiet for the cost of lower quality and for keeping the peace? Or should i name it for the cost to get harsh feedback and maybe get even bashed because of it? What would you do?
I am an direct person. I name it when i notice it. And am not quiet.
But this has nothing to do with being not nice to the Beta testers. Take it as constructive critism. It is really meant this way. To improve the quality of trueSpace. In the end i just can point to it and hope that you at least think about it. And to hope that you all can forgive me for being so directly :) |
Post by Délé // Apr 11, 2007, 8:48am
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Tiles: I did not take any offense personally. I agree that any program should be tested in a "real" workflow scenario whenever possible. Just understand that it can be very tricky to do that at times as things can change quite often and quickly during beta cycles, for any software. In some cases, imagine having to start a project from scratch over and over because things keep changing. It can be very difficult to make progress with a larger project sometimes. So with any beta testing, I'm sure testers try to test real world scenarios whenever possible. After all, we want a solid release just as much as the next guy. :) With any software, there will undoubtedly be some things that slip through the cracks and are not discovered until it's out in the masses and being used in real projects. That's just the nature of the game. |
Post by Steinie // Apr 11, 2007, 9:27am
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I would hope the ProTeam was listened to since they do have time to put the program to the test.
Their the last line of defense before the rest of us get it. |
Post by RichLevy // Apr 11, 2007, 10:32am
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@Tiles
By no means should you be quiet, it is your right and privilege to say your mind, that is the beauty of the TS forums here. I was just trying to remind everyone we are trying to catch things the best we can.
Matt covered the basics of what we run into and why we just can not make more art and animations than you see...
Rich |
Post by Tiles // Apr 11, 2007, 9:32pm
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Glad to hear that no harm was done. I am a bit too straight forward from time to time. Was just a suggestion anyway. At least we have talked about it. That's all i wanted :)
Good luck with catching the remaining bugs :) |
Post by Bobbins // Apr 11, 2007, 10:08pm
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Bobbins
Total Posts: 506
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To give a direct answer....
Due to the variety of beta testers, tS is tested in a workflow environment. Pro-team also provide valuable feedback.
Good point about the lack of artwork though - go poke the Pro-team members as they are obviously the ones letting us down there! :) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 12, 2007, 12:40am
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LOL guilty as charged. ;)
-Jack. |
Post by Délé // Apr 12, 2007, 1:06am
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lol, I wouldn't put Jack in that box :p ...He has been working on some very cool stuff for use in 7.5. :) |
Post by Jack Edwards // Apr 12, 2007, 3:59am
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:) yah, but he's right that it's taking time from my feeble attempts at art, lol.
Where's Heidi with something cool when we need her!? ;)
-Jack. |
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