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TrueSpace = marginal system
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
TrueSpace = marginal system // Rants and Raves
Post by Wigand // May 24, 2007, 5:05am
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Wigand
Total Posts: 462
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If you can read german...
Here you find a discussion to delete the german entry about TrueSpace.
TrueSpace is called a Randphänomen=marginal system.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:L%C3%B6schkandidaten/15._April_2007#Caligari_trueSpace_.28zur.C3.BCckge zogen.29 |
Post by Improv // May 24, 2007, 6:12am
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Improv
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[QUOTE=Wigand;35296]If you can read german...
Randphänomen=marginal system.
Why do they claim that tS is marginal? |
Post by Wigand // May 24, 2007, 6:21am
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Wigand
Total Posts: 462
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I translated Randphänomen=marginal system with the help of http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/oHL..&search=randphaenomene
It's like a niche product with no impact.
Because:
Blender has 4.64Million google entries TrueSpace only 160000.
But seems to have users by Rolls Royce and NASA.
Has no big user community, only for professional class of business.
But was first developed on Amiga as one of the first 3D programs, so it seems to be something special. |
Post by holm // May 24, 2007, 6:23am
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holm
Total Posts: 33
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Im german but i also don't understand the sense of the article. From my point of view i would ignore it. |
Post by parva // May 24, 2007, 6:26am
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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agree with holm. I don't understand it. I mean there is still an article about Caligari trueSpace in german Wiki (not as detailed as other CG programs but well). |
Post by Wigand // May 24, 2007, 6:28am
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Wigand
Total Posts: 462
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Im german but i also don't understand the sense of the article. From my point of view i would ignore it.
Yes, I agree. But these are the people who decide if there is an entry in Wikipedia or not and these are the arguments. :mad: |
Post by Improv // May 24, 2007, 6:32am
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Improv
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Yes, I agree. But these are the people who decide if there is an entry in Wikipedia or not and these are the arguments. :mad:
So what? What was the point of even posting it? Or getting mad?
Don't know about you, but Wikipedia doesn't decide what most people buy. Ignore it if you don't like what they say.
Such trivial, marginal nonsense! :rolleyes: |
Post by Improv // May 24, 2007, 6:53am
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Improv
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This demonstrates the true meaning of the 'wisdom of the mob'. They decide upon the marginality of something based on nothing more than Google hit statistics, without even taking the trouble of doing some research about their meaning.
I have always had serious doubts about Wikipedia's validity as anything more than a quick look up for pop culture items. (like who was in a certain group in 1986 or whatever.)
Wikipedia simply is NOT a serious reference by any standard. |
Post by Emma // May 24, 2007, 6:54am
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Emma
Total Posts: 344
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of something based on nothing more than Google hit statistics
interesting because that is typical American view of the world as I experienced it when I lived in that country, pure statistics, regardless what is behind the numbers (except it says $$$$). But in this forum I think it is easy to see that trueSpace users don't follow this point of view, otherwise it could be quite empty here.
So it is true one should ignore such entrys on one side, but on the other side I think it is important to keep an eye on such things since you never know if someone wants to fresh up his statistics, regardless if it harms anyone else.
For myself I made two entrys in the german Wikipedia, one for trueSpace, which was deleted with the remark it is comercial ( I just described the features in german, same way as features were described for several commercial competitors which wern't deleted) and another one about a historic person which was deleted with the remark that i should do detailed research for that person. Truth is I did exactly that, but there was nothing there [at least not with google :D ) but I own an original (1892 handwritten) document from which I placed the contained info into Wikipedia to give others a possible connection point that could help to unveal mor of this person.
So my personal oppinion about Wikipedia, forget it, but more and more youngsters believe in it. |
Post by TomG // May 24, 2007, 7:56am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Whether something is marginal or popular or not - isn't the whole point of a Wikipedia to feature information that is hard to find?
So actually, the more marginal an item, the more suited it is for a wikipedia, because the less likely the information is available elsewhere! The whole idea of a wiki is to have obscure stuff that no-one can afford to print in an encyclopedia, because otherwise you would have 20 million pages plus etc.
Seems crazy to me one way or another :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Improv // May 24, 2007, 8:12am
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Improv
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So my personal oppinion about Wikipedia, forget it, but more and more youngsters believe in it.
I think it has to do with the convenience factor. It's far easier to go to Wikipedia than to the library or other accredited sources. It reminds me of people that get their medical knowldge from the evening news. And we all know that the evening news has a tendency to report on initial research findings as final conclusions. All these people hear is that ' xyz causes/prevents abc disease of the week' ; and they never look any farther. (How much testing was done? Was it a representative sample? Who funded the study? What test conditions were present,etc,etc,etc.)
Newsbites often get confused with research! (unfortunately!) :rolleyes: |
Post by Improv // May 24, 2007, 9:34am
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Improv
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:rolleyes: True again Improv. Or as it was said on the World Service by someone commenting on political news reports: " ... what's in the public interest is not always the same as what the public is interested in ..."
Public interest to tv channels means keeping viewers interested enough to keep watching, thus boosting ratings, thus increasing their advert. revenue. |
Post by Colfax // May 24, 2007, 9:57am
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Colfax
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Let's all just try and relax. There is no reason to assault the value of an open resource like Wikipedia simply because it contains information that you don't agree with.
Consider that you could walk into a library and find several books that hold differing perspectives. Would you demand that the books you don't agree with be taken out of the library? Such censorship would not enrich us in the least. Would you say that the library itself is worthless?
I think wikipedia is a very important tool for everyone. It has both the power to inform and disinform as much as any media outlet, or doctor, or trusted friend or family member.
Consider that even doctors and medical researchers will disagree over the best course of treatment for a patient. It is for this reason that we should all seek to be as informed as possible, and not cover our ears or kick and scream when we hear something we don't like.
Truespace has a long hard road ahead of it if it wants to become one of the most recognized 3d applications in the world. If you know that Truespace is the best 3D program for you, then that should be enough.
Lastly:
I'm not entirely sure about the rest of the world, but in the United States, the word "blender" also refers to a kitchen appliance, and the name of a magazine. I doubt that half the people who search the word 'blender' are looking for the software. |
Post by RAYMAN // May 24, 2007, 10:14am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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I dont think that a bad entry into Wikipedia is something to just
to take for granted . I think we should try and do something
against it. Is there a way one can protest against it ?
From a point of view of the product Truespace I think
it is about time that Truespace opens up to other
software ....... many import and export formats...
that opens up to all the other usergroups
Truespace should be a turntable
The core not the margin. |
Post by skipper // May 24, 2007, 11:20am
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skipper
Total Posts: 113
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I'd say this is another case of "much ado about nothing." |
Post by RAYMAN // May 24, 2007, 12:01pm
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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What Wikipedia says about Truespace is very nice and up to date !
What you gave us was the link to a "Löschungsantrag "
Someone wanted to have the article deleted !:rolleyes:
If you clic on the Caligari truespace (in Blue way on top) it leads you
the Wikipedia - page about TS and that is very informing and very just.
It even says that Caligari is at the Siggraph and there is a link
to the Caligari Homepage . TS7.5 is mentioned and even the
spec about collaboration is mentioned.
For someone new to the tool - very informing !
"löschungsantrag " - someone wanted to have the page deleted
and the discussion ended with - rejected
So no panik - the whole discussion about Wikipedia was
for nothing
:D |
Post by xmanflash // May 25, 2007, 4:44am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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I think it has to do with the convenience factor. It's far easier to go to Wikipedia than to the library or other accredited sources. It reminds me of people that get their medical knowldge from the evening news. And we all know that the evening news has a tendency to report on initial research findings as final conclusions. All these people hear is that ' xyz causes/prevents abc disease of the week' ; and they never look any farther. (How much testing was done? Was it a representative sample? Who funded the study? What test conditions were present,etc,etc,etc.)
Newsbites often get confused with research! (unfortunately!) :rolleyes:
I think if you dig, you'll find that all research published today is funded by profit motives, therefore there is no such thing as objective science any more. Open and group efforts are going to be more reliable in the future as all official information is becoming marketing purposed.
Take the new HPV vaccine for instance. It is labelled as being so important as to be made mandatory for all girls (and eventually boys) in some countries. However when you dig, it is actually unproven, dangerous and has a high aptitude for rendering women and their daughters sterile.
We all have to choose our facts now.. personally I prefer the Wikipedia model, it compares to me to open source software, where the bugs get ironed out a lot quicker. |
Post by Methusela // May 25, 2007, 4:58am
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Methusela
Total Posts: 414
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This is a little bit off topic, but I've got to agree with what Emma said. Very generally speaking, the majority of Americans are only interested in statistics. To back up her point of view, watch any American sport. Batting averages and thrown touchdowns are quoted during "football" and baseball games ad nauseam. Whereas games like real football aren't so popular here because what statistics are you going to quote? They try though. They show the Champions Leage finals here in the US (And The World Cup) and they were quoting things like the number of crosses players made, or the number of tackles or backwards passes. Maddening stuff.
TrueSpace is like football. It's not about statistics, it's about beauty, art, and fun. (Unless we're talking about Chelsea, then it's about spending alot and winning. Chelsea's like Maya.) |
Post by W!ZARD // May 25, 2007, 9:07am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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9 out of 10 experts say the other guy should just chill out! |
Post by kena // May 26, 2007, 6:50am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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Methusela, I have to disagree with you. ALL sports have statistics. Take a little time to watch something else, and you will see that for MOST people in the world, Americans included, it's all about ascetics.
P.S. 9 out of 10 Americans hate being typecast. ;) |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Jun 12, 2007, 3:58am
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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Interesting that so many folks can be thrown into a general category so easily. By the way, living in America (meaning the US) doesn't mean you've gotten the full experience. There are clearly many distinct regions such as the Northeast, the South, the Midwest, the Rockies, the west coast, Texas (practically a country of it's own), etc.. etc... even within those categories you'll see large variations in culture.
If all you think America is comes from Wall Street, Hollywood, or Washington D.C. then you're missing out on the best part of the country.
There are worse places in the world for reasons that have nothing to do with America. We're not the only country that people defect to but we are one of the countries that's commonly been a destination.
Yeah, I know this is fueled by national policy too and there too you'll find many Americans disagree with each other and our president.
Applying broad brush rules to another large group of people is a form of prejudice (with a small 'p') and not necessarily productive.
Yep, many Americans are guilty of this too.
Let's not let our national pride get in the way of good discourse on 3D graphics.
The fact that a wiki page exists stating that trueSpace is a marginal system only means that there are people out there who believe that to be true. It's a sad story but they are entitled to their opinion. I've formed my own opinion by actual use, therefore I'd be more inclined to listen to my gut.
P.S. I don't watch American football for the statistics but I have been known to take an interest in the score. It's neither better or worse than "real football", only different. Ok... it's better to me but then I like hockey better than American football too. I think a lot of sports statistics are motivated by fantasy leagues and gambling... neither of which are uniquely American things. |
Post by xmanflash // Jun 12, 2007, 4:38am
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xmanflash
Total Posts: 335
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"trueSpace is a marginal system " I took that to meant that the impact of the software on the world of 3D is marginal so far.. isnt that fairly accurate compared to say Maya, Soft, Max, Blender?? |
Post by tomasb // Jun 12, 2007, 7:50am
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tomasb
Total Posts: 261
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"trueSpace is a marginal system " I took that to meant that the impact of the software on the world of 3D is marginal so far.. isnt that fairly accurate compared to say Maya, Soft, Max, Blender??
what about widgets, solid/shaded/textured views, ... |
Post by Garion // Jun 12, 2007, 8:48am
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Garion
Total Posts: 116
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what about widgets, solid/shaded/textured views, ...
I suppose being first to do something has it's own merits and rewards, but Max, Maya etc ARE (at the moment) the industry standards.
Calagari have been 'inovating' for 20 years, the main strapline being 'We were first to do such and such', but after all this 'inovation' and after all this time Truespace is still out in the 'boonies' (practising my American again :) )
Why is this?
In my opinion (and its just MY opinion) pro users want stabilty, workflow, easy intigration with exisiting pipelines (Import/export) and a solid base of tools, before they want.... features they see as being gimmicks.
This seems obvious to me.
As a TS7.5 protouser (still finding my way around :rolleyes: ) I don't see anything that would cause any non-truespace user to defect from their current application. Yes we have a powerful set of tools now, hair, new animation system etc, but add to that the increased learning curve and the overall cost of ownership and its not really an option.
Of course Truespace NOT being an industry standard has its plus points too. There are a lot more hobbyist 3d artists out there than there are Pro studios, so Truespace maybe the ideal choice for them, especialy if they start off with a free version and get an upgrade price for say 6 or 7. At least that way the cash is flowing, but thats another subject and I am not an acountant :D
Cheers
Garion |
Post by ProfessorKhaos // Jun 12, 2007, 4:56pm
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ProfessorKhaos
Total Posts: 622
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9 out of 10 experts say I should have chilled out a bit. Sorry for my rant earlier. I do get a bit tired of the stereotypes though. :( |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 13, 2007, 6:01am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Ah I love these forums - so many different points of view. It makes for interesting reading.
It seems to me that the statement "trueSpace = marginal" begs the question 'in what context'? I see a prevelent trend in much of 3d graphic arts that equates 'the industry' with the film industry, inviting comparisons with tools designed primarily for the film industry - Maya and the the other so-called big players.
I suggest that this definition of 'the industry' is not only arbitrary but far too narrow. 3d computer graphics covers a far larger area than that defined by the film industry. Does Maya get used for product visualisation? Does it get used for making still images at all? I don't know I've never used it but does it make sense for an architect or an advertiser of architecture (for example) to use Maya whan he just want a good value visualization, something easily and economically creatable using trueSpace?
Putting it metaphorically, does Mrs Jones need an eighteen wheeler Kenworth truck to do a shopping trip which can be done more economically, easily, conveniently in, say, a Honda Civic?
To determine wether tS is a marginal system it must first be decided what it is being compared to and in what environment. Would someone make a movie like Shrek using just trueSpace? Unlikely. Would someone use Maya to make interactive material like trueSpace can - also unlikely. Would a home based hobbyest like myself use Maya to create and construct his art? Very unlikely - therefore in that specific contest, Maya is the marginal application.
There are many people using tS for pleasure and profit - and in those contexts Maya etc are the marginal appications.
Don't let the snobbery and exclusionist elitism of a few tell you anything more than the fact that some people are elitist, exclusionist snobs. A persons preferences tell you far more about the person than they do about what is prefered.
Finally, there are a great many people who have no interest at all in the technicalities of computer graphics, they don't care in the slightest what bits of software were used to do what. The average non-computer art person who looks at my trueSpace art see's a picture (that either appeals to them or it doesn't - "I don't know art but I know what I like").
I've never been asked 'why don't you use Maya?' but people do ask what software I use. I reply that mostly I use whatever software I have that will best do the job but my favourite software is trueSpace. |
Post by Steinie // Jun 13, 2007, 6:54am
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There is a very small user base of 3D Artist to begin with. Most everyone is Not an Artist, a small percentage of Artist know about 3D Art, smaller percentage still know about trueSpace. So we are Elite to begin with just to be in this field of Art. Now break down the 3D Artist by Application and break them down further to "Talented" and "Not Gifted"
My point is TS is really a good application for the largest group of 3D users in a small percentage of the population.
Caligari seems to be trying to work its way back into the Professional realm and still maintain it's other user base.
A really good 3D artist regardless of Application will find work. Theres not that many of them.
I'm not defending my choice of why I use trueSpace. So Articles that use words like "Marginal" don't effect me one way or another. My artwork is all that matters. Getting the Application noticed by the Big Boys is Roman's job not ours.
When someone sees my work there looking at the Art not how it was produced.
My two cents. |
Post by Improv // Jun 13, 2007, 8:35am
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Improv
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And don't forget that one person's marginal software may = another person's exclusive/special/secret weapon software. ;-) |
Post by Garion // Jun 13, 2007, 11:29am
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Garion
Total Posts: 116
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Unfortunatley 'Elitism' is rife in most areas of computing, Hardware guys with Uber rigs dis hardware guys with min spec systems.
Mac Guys and PC Guys cross swords at dawn and duel over their respective platforms. ;)
Pro 2D graphic artists that use Photoshop dis 2D artist that use Paint Shop Pro.
The Dreamweaver Devs dis the Netobjects Fusion Devs and the Notepad Devs dis everyone :D
Software and hardware are just a tools, nothing more.
Now I think (though I may be wrong) that its fair to say that Truspace is a marginal system in the film and TV industry. I am relying here on my memory of never seeing Truspace mentioned in the credits or any 3D exposures of films or TV in mags like 3D World.
I cannot really comment too much in its use in advertising, but once more I have seen Photshop and Illustrator mentioned a lot.. so maybe stills are more a 2D market.
Animated advertising I know very little about, so I won't say nowt
I have seen and know that Truespace is used by a lot of hobbyists, I have recomended it for years up to TS6.6. I had a wee club of local users going a few years ago and we had good fun and learnt a lot using it together. The club is no more as I had to give up through medical reasons. :(
A lot of Indies use Truespace\ Gamespace for game dev, though quite a few are moving onto other apps.
Maya and Max are the stalwarts of Movie and Game Making, with Lightwave maybe being used more for TV.
Colleges and Universities run courses that use this software to prepare students for jobs in what they percieve as the Industry. Usually having had feedback from that Industry as to what they require.
Splinters uses Truespace to teach his pupils/students the art of.. erm 3D art and design. ;)
The pole we saw in another thread that placed Truespace in fourth place.... well I dunno ;) :confused:
Truspace has a lot features, it looks like it has everything anyone would ever need and for most Indies and Freelancers that is the case..
But.. Its when you try to use it on a big project or try to encorporate it into a pipeline that it falls down.
Stabiltiy has always been an issue, vertex and point modelling crashes. We still do not have a fully functional version 7 as we must still use tools in the TS6 side. When and only when we get a version of Truespace without the TS6 addon, will we have the 'Next Gen Truespace' and its that version of Truespace that will be competing against Max and Maya et al.
As a Truespace user I want it to succeed in atracting new and enthusiastic users, but the market has changed, the so called Industry Standard apps do not cost tens of thousands of pounds anymore and the price increases for TS are moving it out of the afordable range for for hobbyist users.
The above post is what I personaly believe, it might be a load of old bollocks:D
Blessed Be ;)
Garion |
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