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Why do I have to relearn trueSpace, Caligari?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Why do I have to relearn trueSpace, Caligari? // Rants and Raves
Post by noko // Jun 10, 2007, 5:31am
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noko
Total Posts: 684
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I find the graphical approach more faster since many of the tools are readily available and visable. In a menu it usually has to be opened and scanned down to where the developer thinks is best for the tool each time used, over and over again. A button in many cases is one click away.
In tS if you don't like where your favorite tools are you can put them where ever you want. In fact you can change virtually the whole configuration of what goes where.
Still a matter of choice for U/I perferences so what ever works best for you I say is the answer. For me tS is miles ahead of everyone else. |
Post by splinters // Jun 10, 2007, 12:58pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I just realised that the main banner on the Caligari site links to this thread. Now I am all for honesty and all that but is this really the best thread to advertise tS7.5?? |
Post by adriani // Jun 10, 2007, 1:38pm
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adriani
Total Posts: 89
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I am agree with Wigmo....I just wait for patch/fix many bugs and TS7.5 and vray too...I think We do not need to pay all courses and tutorial...many softwares like Maya,Max and others the manual is very good....and many tutorial too....why the Caligari do not make it !!! Today all people just think about money money pay pay.....let´s make and think different!!! ALL need to learn First....thanks |
Post by frootee // Jun 10, 2007, 4:25pm
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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splinters,
I agree.
I wonder why Caligari is interested in publicising a debate about including a manual with a demo. To be honest, I don't see how including the manual with the demo is going to hurt Caligari's business. See, when users purchase Caligari products, they BUY the software, not the manual, even though the manual comes with the software. Think about it: The manual is actually useless without the software. Right? But for a potential customer, who knows nothing about the truespace interface, the software is not useless, but very difficult to understand, and use, without a 'demo manual'. That may be a suggestion. Offer a guided-tour manual with some tutorials, highlighting the new modelling and animation and physics tools. Give the trial users a taste, show them how to do it. Anyway.
Frootee |
Post by camelot // Jun 10, 2007, 4:31pm
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camelot
Total Posts: 68
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splinters,
I agree.
I wonder why Caligari is interested in publicising a debate about including a manual with a demo. To be honest, I don't see how including the manual with the demo is going to hurt Caligari's business. See, when users purchase Caligari products, they BUY the software, not the manual, even though the manual comes with the software. Think about it: The manual is actually useless without the software. Right? But for a potential customer, who knows nothing about the truespace interface, the software is not useless, but very difficult to understand, and use, without a 'demo manual'. That may be a suggestion. Offer a guided-tour manual with some tutorials, highlighting the new modelling and animation and physics tools. Give the trial users a taste, show them how to do it. Anyway.
Frootee
If it's any consolation, new users of the full version of 7.5 don't understand how to use it either. :confused: |
Post by transient // Jun 10, 2007, 5:07pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I'm not having any problems, and I'm no genius. My only real issue so far was the documentation of the library system, and the manual in general - which is being fixed.
3d graphics isn't for quitters. |
Post by frootee // Jun 11, 2007, 1:29am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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<3d graphics isn't for quitters.>
Hi transient.
Course not. FWIW, I've been a ts user since 4.3.
But it sounds like trial users who have never 3D'd before could use
some documentation.
Frootee |
Post by transient // Jun 11, 2007, 1:46am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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If it's any consolation, new users of the full version of 7.5 don't understand how to use it either.
My response:
I'm not having any problems, and I'm no genius. My only real issue so far was the documentation of the library system, and the manual in general - which is being fixed.
3d graphics isn't for quitters.
This has nothing to do with the trial version, which I agree would be better with a manual. I think maybe I should have made it clearer. |
Post by adriani // Jun 12, 2007, 11:05am
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adriani
Total Posts: 89
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I am still waiting for patch/fix bugs in ts7.5 and vray......
:( |
Post by Steinie // Jun 12, 2007, 11:43am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Adriani, change the I to WE, your not the only one waiting. The last update about the fixes arriving is here:
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=3265 |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 13, 2007, 5:22am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I just realised that the main banner on the Caligari site links to this thread. Now I am all for honesty and all that but is this really the best thread to advertise tS7.5??
Chuckle! There are plenty of other threads that would be worse! I think that the honesty aspect speaks volumes and this thread also contains a lot of pros and cons - important to a prospective buyer - and also many cons are addressed by the users rather than Caligari which also speaks volumes I think.
The title question of this thread is one that has been asked in many other threads but here it has attracted answers from satisfied users - and you can't get better endorsements than that!
Harking back to the perrenial question about icon driven UI compared to menu driven UI I saw an interesting show from the BBC on the TV the other night. They were discussing corporate logos and human recognition of patterns. They had a group of young children and showed them the word "monkey" written on a card. None of them recognised it. Then they were shown a picture of a monkey - they all recognised it. Next they were shown the letter "M" and only one of them recognised it - lastly they were showm the famous Macdonalds golden arches symbol - a stylised "M" - which all the children responded to with excitement.
This demonstrates to me and confirms my belief that icons are actually easier to learn and more intuitive than menu driven text buttons.
Re the manual - I'm the first to agree that in it's present (temporary) form it's rather lacking in places. But I don't think that should prove to be as big an issue as some people may think. Humans learn by repeatedly doing stuff. We learn to walk without a manual, we learn to talk without a manual. A manual no matter how comprehensive can only ever be a guide - the way to learn trueSpace is the same way we learn everything - by repeatedly doing it.
I've skim read the manual as it is, read a couple of sections in further detail and then forgotten it. I've learnt to use tS 7.5 by using it, getting it wrong and trying again till I got it right - there is still plenty more for me to learn of course so I'm waiting for further issues of the manual, just like everyone else.
But the new version of the manual won't teach me to use tS - it can only guide me to learn by repeatedly doing. That learning can only be helped by pictorial icons that actgually show the tools purpose rather than some unfamiliar technical term I need to look up in a manual.
<rant mode off> |
Post by RAYMAN // Jun 13, 2007, 6:12am
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RAYMAN
Total Posts: 1496
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The problem with the old default setup and the new default setup is
that you dont see all the icons in front of you ! They are in dropdown
menu and icons hide behind icons :(
That was the first thing I changed with TS 6.6.
I made an interface with all the tools visible and grouped around the
desktop.
I am waiting for my 7.51..... to do the same !
One recognises them better if they are grouped !
I have layouts for every task I do with all the tools needed...
TS is very customisable and basicaly it is ones own fault
if one does not have the layout that one wants ;) |
Post by wigmo // Jun 13, 2007, 8:00am
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wigmo
Total Posts: 40
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I really get totally baffled as to why so many people weird themselves out over the icon driven interface... once you learn the patterns of the icons - a process identical to learning the patterns of a word in a menu - you have learned it, end of story.
<Rant mode off>
Not so much. If you learn the word "Sweep" it will always remain "Sweep." You only have to learn it once. If you recognize the visual icon for sweep, then it later changes visually you will not recognize it as quickly because the brain has already been trained to recognize the old icon as sweep. There is a relearning process.
Also, from a GUI designers point of view it's always good practice in software design to have a menu to access program features, even if there are icons for the same task as a fallback.
-Shawn |
Post by trueBlue // Jun 13, 2007, 8:39am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Well you can change the toolbars in Workspace from 2D to ID.
Then I guess you could have the best of both worlds. :rolleyes: |
Post by wigmo // Jun 13, 2007, 8:42am
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wigmo
Total Posts: 40
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The point was to have both at the same time, not either or.
Also, without the help file how many people would go about their business without realizing that feature exists? |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 17, 2007, 3:41am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Not so much. If you learn the word "Sweep" it will always remain "Sweep." You only have to learn it once. If you recognize the visual icon for sweep, then it later changes visually you will not recognize it as quickly because the brain has already been trained to recognize the old icon as sweep. There is a relearning process.
Also, from a GUI designers point of view it's always good practice in software design to have a menu to access program features, even if there are icons for the same task as a fallback.
-Shawn
Sorry Shawn but I don't think your metaphor stands up - sure, if you learn the meaning of the word sweep it will always remain sweep and you only have to learn it once - if you learn a pictorial icon illustrating the same process you also only have to learn it once. If the icon symbol changes visually this is the same as the word symbol changing - sweep being replaced with , say, extrude. You learn the new word symbol once, you learn the new pictorial symbol once. There is a relearning process either way.
The brain and the learning process it goes through does not differentiate between learning a word shape and a pictorial shape except that it learns pictorial patterns faster. The brain does not store a picture or a word - it stores patterns of neurons firing, no matter what it is learning.
Pictorial patterns also have the advantage of being independant of specific languages - a picture of a hammer still refers to a tool wether you are an English speaker or a speaker of some other language.
The human brain has a natural ability to recognise patterns and shapes - this is why so many people say 'I can't remember names but I never forget a face'. A two year old child can recognise a picture of a cow far more easily than it can recognise the word for cow.
What makes your mouth water fastest - a sign saying cheeseburger or a picture of a cheeseburger? At the end of the day a picture is worth a thousand words and will always transmit more information in a more holistic manner that any amount of words.
So given all this why is it a good practice in software design to have a menu? I believe that with a truly well desigined graphical interface a menu system is really redundant. |
Post by Burnart // Jun 17, 2007, 2:38pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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I have layouts for every task I do with all the tools needed...
TS is very customisable and basicaly it is ones own fault
if one does not have the layout that one wants ;)
What you say is absolutely true but I can't help thinking you have to know what and where all the icons are and how the UI works before you can do that. Would be a neat trick for a noobee! However the power of modification should not be forgotten.
I think the new UI is kinda sexy - makes the 6.6 look very old fashioned. We will learn it and then we will wonder how we ever did anything with its primitive precursors. :p Personally I'm sticking with the default layout for the foreseeable future - seems alright to me at this stage. The only thing I've done is set up a couple of libraries for my stuff and added some plugins to the modelside. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 17, 2007, 4:44pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I am in constant overhaull mode..I'm always fiddling with my layout...I move and assign at least 1 icon/ 1 hotkey a day I think...,but Overall I have no problems "re-learning" the app. Hello!, they're pictures with mouse over tips...Too easy. |
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