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Where are the bugfixes?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Where are the bugfixes? // Rants and Raves
Post by Tiles // Dec 4, 2007, 11:17pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Up to TS 6.6 there was never a fully working TS version available. Bug fixes came with the new versions if even at all. Some bugs went worse with every version. And the new versions always introduced new bugs.
I see the same happen here with TS 7.x. No Bugfixes available. Just buggy, unstable versions. You need to buy the next version to get the bug fixes. But that's of no use. Because the new version always means more bugs. And no bug fixes for the new ones available (well, you have to wait for the next version. And maybe ... ;) ).
So no wonder that every time i read about TS 7.5 the comment is like "keep your hands away", "not worth the bucks" etc. .
My personal situation is similar at the moment: I hate to touch TS 7.5. Because i always end in making screenshots and reporting bugs instead getting my work done. 7.5 was rarely of use for me yet. I cannot recommend it in any means. And absolutely wonder how others can work with it. Hats off to you!
So what about changing the in my opinion wrong marketing strategy, and release a bugfix for the current version instead just fix half of the bugs in the new version(and making some of them even worse), and introduce new bugs with every version up to the point where the baby is again unfixable?
With Bugfix i mean fixes for the bugs in the current version. Not introducing new features. That's indeed a job for a next version. In that way we may have a TS Version that is fully working some days. A useful one. And not a version where you have to use another software for a specific job because the feature in TS for that job is there but broken. Hey, maybe in the next version ... :rolleyes:
And a fully WORKING (this means not the number of the available features, but that the current available features works as thought) TS version would be a good argument to buy TS. When you have to buy the next version just to get the bugs fixed, well, that is a nasty marketing strategy. And just scares the customers away. |
Post by splinters // Dec 5, 2007, 2:26am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Sorry Tiles, model side is effectively 'legacy' now as tS future is on workspace side. I doubt very much that any model side issues will be addressed now as it is old code. Not the news you want to hear, I am sure, nor is that an official line, just what I gather from previous posts.
If all tools were ported to workspace, you could set the UI up to look just like model side and you would have the added power of the new architecture.
That is the day I am looking forward to ...:) |
Post by Tiles // Dec 5, 2007, 2:47am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Splinters, i am not talking about the model side here. Kill it, remove the bridge. I am the one who signs it first ;)
I talk about the bugs in TS 7.5 Workspace that makes it impossible for me to use it. I talk about the unfinished "yeah, let's at least throw in the button so that it looks like the function is there". Not in the way that i want the features but in the way that unfinished features shouldn't go into the software. Finish them. Then release them.
I talk about all that stuff which forces me to go back to TS 6.6 , or to other software like Blender (yeah, it is this dramatic for me. I HATE the Blender GUI. But am even willing to migrate to Blender now) because you cannot use the functions in TS 7.5 yet. Be it because there are too much bugs in the way, the features are not ready implemented yet or aren't implemented yet at all for the cost of throwing in some eye candys that are also useless because not finally finished and/or buggy.
I am talking about the fact that i see Caligari repeating old mistakes. It is a mistake to deliver bug fixes with the next version. Bug fixes are needed for the current version. Here is where you need them. So that you can use the software at all.
I talk about the fact that most of the german trueSpace community are migrated to another software because they were not longer willing to live with the current way of not fixing existant bugs.
I talk about the fact that I get MAD to report bugs. For TS 7.5 Workspace by the way. I have long given up to report bugs for Modeler. I know that they will not been fixed ;)
Bugs that hinders me to go on with my work. Bugs that never gets fixed. Not here. Not in my TS Version i have paid for.
Wouldn't be this dramatic when those bugs were something like cosmetic. But no matter what i touch i end in making a screenshot and report the bugs here. Bugs where i need the fixes for. So that i can work with trueSpace. Which i cannot at the moment. |
Post by TomG // Dec 5, 2007, 3:28am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Some upgrades to "another version" are free of charge. Some include new features as well as bug fixes and cost money. Sometimes when an upgrade costs money, there is a free bug fix version too.
That was the approach with tS6, and has been the same in fact with tS7. Many folks have gone from tS7.0 to tS7.5 for free (due to purchasing early and being promised "tS7.1" - but then tS7.1 was a bug fix free to all, and the animation features moved to tS7.5, so it turned out their upgrade was tS7.5 free). Same has happened with V-Ray where there has been a paid version if you want fixes and new features, and just a free fix version too.
At every stage of development, we decide what we are releasing and how (charged, free, a charged and a free, etc). We never discuss release until we get there (since things often change), so I can't tell you what is in store next in terms of what version it will be and whether it will be free / charged / free and charged.
So I think it is highly mis-representative to say customers have to pay for bug fixes. We've had tS7.1, tS7.11, tS7.5 was free for many, and tS7.51. Quite a few free releases in fact, more than the paid upgrades.
That's also a faster release rate for both features and bug fixes than seen in tS6.6 too.
Naturally we are sorry you are finding yourself unable to do your particular work in tS7.5, and also we are continuing to work on bugs and fixes and workflow improvements as well as new features. At the same time, we have other customers who are able to do all their work in workspace and don't find themselves crippled at all (that's not to say it is perfect and they dont find bugs, but they don't find themselves in the position you state, which is that you are unable to do any sort of work at all).
Whatever situation people find themselves in, it is always our aim to find and squash bugs and that will continue to be the case. Our policies regarding releases being free or for a charge will also continue in the same vein as it has been running for the last few years (which as noted features a lot of free upgrades / patches / fixes).
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Tiles // Dec 5, 2007, 7:42am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Thank you for your statement Tom. I wish i could agree with you in all cases. |
Post by prodigy // Dec 5, 2007, 11:27am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Titles,
I understand your frustration.. I think your problem is you'r still linked with the old Model side..
I was in the same position like you, that's why i understand you.. But with practice i start to understand how workspace work and now i can go back..
My suggestion is start to work in Workspace many times as you can.. For example the first time i work in Workspace side was for the Thursday Night live..
Speed Model challenge was cool too to work in workspace..
Now im working for my architectual viz in workspace cos i found new workflows..
Model side and Workspace sometimes has diferent workflows and that is frustrating when you try to go in workspace.. so free your mind and start to learn again and find your own workflows.. you will see with some practice what im talking about..
Take care!
Augusto. |
Post by Tiles // Dec 5, 2007, 10:43pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Ah, please, i am NOT talking about the Model side. Kill the bridge, Remove Modeler from TS 7.5. I am the one that signs first!
That seems to be the biggest misunderstanding here. I rarely touch the model side. When i fire up TS 7.5 i want to use the workspace. But i am forced to use TS 6.6 because TS 7.5 Workspace doesn't let me do my job.
Let's grab the example from the last two days. I wanted to do some displacement. Nothing dramatic. Just create a mountain piece through a greyscale picture. The story ended in reporting eight bugs at one day (to be fair, two of them are not repeatable yet, just happened once. And one turned out to be a settings thingie). And i didn't get my displacement done. Have done the job in TS 6.6 and through the Cool powers Plugin now. 1:0 for trueSpace 6.6
Or take the bones system. Every step of rigging was escorted by some bugs. Up to the point where i wasn't able to use the default pose. Which makes rigging impossible. Back to Motion Studio. 2:0 for trueSpace 6.6.
Let's model a bit. Ah, i need a bevel here. Umn, where are the bevel settings? Oh noes. Back to TS 6.6. 3:0 for trueSpace 6.6.
And this happened too often for me.
See the point? It's not that i talk about TS 7.5 from the angle of a "eek, this is new, eek me not likes". It is: Everytime i touch TS 7.5 i end in making screenshots and reporting bugs. And do the job in TS 6.6 (or another software) then. You can even follow when i touched TS 7.5 by the dates of the bug reports i made.
And finally the bug fixes doesn't arrive here. THAT'S the point where i am highly frustrated at. |
Post by prodigy // Dec 8, 2007, 5:26am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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What can i say.. :p |
Post by JakeB // Dec 8, 2007, 9:03pm
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JakeB
Total Posts: 19
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Hi Tiles,
I am not certain if I understand your concern,
but let me give it a try.
TomG,
I think what Tiles is requesting is a change in
the philosophy at Caligari.
Currently, it appears to an outsider that Caligari,
offers "new features" along with "bug fixes" in
new revisions of the software. Sometimes, there
is a financial charge for these "new features" and
sometimes there is not.
I believe Tiles, like some other people I have
read on the internet, are complaining about
Caligari's method of requiring people to add
new features when all they want is to have
fully functional existing software. The one they
paid for.
Free service packs to Fix trueSpace 7.xx, without
any new features is what some customers are
seeking. New features mean potentially new
bugs. I think the expression might be:
"I want what I was promised."
Tiles, if my comments are completely off-base,
please feel free to fix the bugs in my post :) |
Post by Tiles // Dec 8, 2007, 10:16pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Nope, you brought it down. That's exactly what i mean :)
I want what i was promised.
You buy a software because of the promised features. What`s the software worth when the promised features fails to work? Well, there's no software without bugs. But trueSpace is the only software i know where the bugfixes never (In terms of a few bugs gets adressed in free point uppgrades, but for the rest you have to wait for the next mayor release. In hope they get fixed at all) arrives at the customer. |
Post by Stem // Jul 9, 2008, 9:33am
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Hello all,
Just poped back to see if any news on possible bug fixes,... as I see nothing, I presume still nothing?
Hi Tom,
Some upgrades to "another version" are free of charge. Some include new features as well as bug fixes and cost money. Sometimes when an upgrade costs money, there is a free bug fix version too.
Maybe a better policy to release a bug fix version for those who have already spent their cash, it can help to give a nice warm fuzzy feeling that the vendor actually cares about its current user base.(well should I say those who have made purchase).
Anyway, have fun all, see ya in another few months
Regards to all members,
- Stem |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 9, 2008, 11:55pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Some upgrades to "another version" are free of charge. Some include new features as well as bug fixes and cost money. Sometimes when an upgrade costs money, there is a free bug fix version too.
That was the approach with tS6, and has been the same in fact with tS7. Many folks have gone from tS7.0 to tS7.5 for free (due to purchasing early and being promised "tS7.1" - but then tS7.1 was a bug fix free to all, and the animation features moved to tS7.5, so it turned out their upgrade was tS7.5 free). Same has happened with V-Ray where there has been a paid version if you want fixes and new features, and just a free fix version too.
At every stage of development, we decide what we are releasing and how (charged, free, a charged and a free, etc). We never discuss release until we get there (since things often change), so I can't tell you what is in store next in terms of what version it will be and whether it will be free / charged / free and charged.
So I think it is highly mis-representative to say customers have to pay for bug fixes. We've had tS7.1, tS7.11, tS7.5 was free for many, and tS7.51. Quite a few free releases in fact, more than the paid upgrades.
That's also a faster release rate for both features and bug fixes than seen in tS6.6 too.
Naturally we are sorry you are finding yourself unable to do your particular work in tS7.5, and also we are continuing to work on bugs and fixes and workflow improvements as well as new features. At the same time, we have other customers who are able to do all their work in workspace and don't find themselves crippled at all (that's not to say it is perfect and they dont find bugs, but they don't find themselves in the position you state, which is that you are unable to do any sort of work at all).
Whatever situation people find themselves in, it is always our aim to find and squash bugs and that will continue to be the case. Our policies regarding releases being free or for a charge will also continue in the same vein as it has been running for the last few years (which as noted features a lot of free upgrades / patches / fixes).
HTH!
Tom
Lots of stuff here you need to think about...
Animation was moved to 7.5(a paid upgrade)....uhhh hello, are you guys at caligari even thinking. Grab a cup of coffee. Paying for inter-package animation tools...what are you thinking. Now it sounds like we're going to get to buy booleans?? I will sell my license if I end up having to pay for 7.6. the cloth looks good, but so what. One more time....all this should have been in 7.0.
oh yeah...I wan what I deserve, and was promised. |
Post by TomG // Jul 10, 2008, 1:25am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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People are drawing conclusions before details are even announced. I would ask that everyone wait until details are out before commenting on whether it is fair pricing or not!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by prodigy // Jul 10, 2008, 7:50am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Sorry... Who sais Tom has an easy work??? :rolleyes:
Gosh... |
Post by splinters // Jul 10, 2008, 9:31am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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Always a danger that a thread will take a downward turn...things have been a bit more positive lately...:o
There are some valid points though; the main one being that you should not have to pay for a fix. There really should be a patch for any known limitations and issues and an 'upgrade' for new features.
This has to be a two way issue; Caligari need to make money (or did before coming part of MS!) and so need money to fund the last years work on the program (developers and artists need paying!) but also there is an issue of giving the customers a service by ensuring you address the problems that were not flagged up in testing.
Just for the record, I am on the fence here; happy to upgrade for a fair price but not happy to be stuck with tS7.51 bugs that may now be fixed. I should be able to get my 7.5 fixed even if I decide not to get the new features.
Wouldn't that keep everyone happy? |
Post by rj0 // Jul 10, 2008, 9:54am
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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Always a danger that a thread will take a downward turn...things have been a bit more positive lately...:o
There are some valid points though; the main one being that you should not have to pay for a fix. There really should be a patch for any known limitations and issues and an 'upgrade' for new features.
This has to be a two way issue; Caligari need to make money (or did before coming part of MS!) and so need money to fund the last years work on the program (developers and artists need paying!) but also there is an issue of giving the customers a service by ensuring you address the problems that were not flagged up in testing.
Just for the record, I am on the fence here; happy to upgrade for a fair price but not happy to be stuck with tS7.51 bugs that may now be fixed. I should be able to get my 7.5 fixed even if I decide not to get the new features.
Wouldn't that keep everyone happy?
Agreed. Bug fixes (and features promised for 7.5 or earlier) should not cost extra. After that, a fair upgrade price is a fair upgrade.
rj |
Post by Burnart // Jul 10, 2008, 1:15pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Lots of stuff here you need to think about...
Animation was moved to 7.5(a paid upgrade)....uhhh hello, are you guys at caligari even thinking. Grab a cup of coffee. Paying for inter-package animation tools...what are you thinking. Now it sounds like we're going to get to buy booleans?? I will sell my license if I end up having to pay for 7.6. the cloth looks good, but so what. One more time....all this should have been in 7.0.
oh yeah...I wan what I deserve, and was promised.
7.5 was a paid upgrade ONLY if you didn't buy 7 at pre-release special pricing. Those of us who gambled on it got the upgrade for free.
I've never been clear precisely what tools were supposed to be in the upgrade to 7 from the modelside (6.6) - certainly I expected more than we have at this stage, but I don't think Caligari tied it down with concrete guarantees. I think they just said they would move tools into workspace over time - over several paid for versions would seem a bit of slap in the face to users but not necessarily dishonest.
As Tom said we really have to wait and see what eventually gets placed on the table in terms of features and price.
Having said all that I certainly understand your frustration and anger nowherebrain. |
Post by splinters // Jul 10, 2008, 1:42pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I guess this is the best reference for what you get in the program(s):
http://www.caligari.com/products/trueSpace/ts75/Brochure/specification.asp?Cate=BSpecification
Although I seem to remember the original tS7 spec being more 'extensive'...:D
I guess there will be a tS7.6 addition to the spec once a release date is announced. |
Post by TomG // Jul 10, 2008, 2:17pm
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I believe the spec was made shorter from 7 to 7.5, not because anything was removed, just because there was getting to be too much to list. So we condensed the list to more essential elements, that does sound like a task I remember doing :) But certainly the actual functionality of the program went up, and the shortening of the spec was one of readibility rather than change to what the program did.
The list of course details what you get in the combination of workspace and Model side, listing all the tools / functionality provided by the combination of both.
And yep the spec will be updated for 7.6 once release is announced!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 10, 2008, 4:02pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Tom, I apologize. This is directed at everyone there as a whole. I know you are one piece of the machine, and it is a large machine. I quoted you, but my intention was not to make you the finger magnet....
At the same time...what we deserve still stands as I previously posted.
the spec was increased, but most of the basic tools were still missing while we got a few new ones(bones aside)??? why, how much sense does that make? I would rather have a cake immediately and add the icing later.
some of those specs don't even make sense...
*new lightworks 7.4 render engine, uhh on model side(read tS 6 side), so not tS 7 natively?
*Caustics.....(not without Vray or 6.6 driven VL...so tS7 pure side has no "out of box" Caustics)
It should also state at the top...
items in black are not neccesarilly part of native 7.0-7.5 software, but are accessible through the version 6.6 software running in tandem. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Jul 10, 2008, 6:52pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I agree about dividing up the feature list for the new and old architecture.
Maybe the model side features could be listed as: "Legacy features" supported via the old architecture. Or something like that. |
Post by transient // Jul 10, 2008, 8:04pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I will sell my license if I end up having to pay for 7.6.
You can't, the license forbids it.
All I wish for now from 7.6 is a functional vray that at least has the core power and speed of it's siblings, if not the features. |
Post by Stem // Jul 11, 2008, 8:04am
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Hi Tom,
People are drawing conclusions before details are even announced. I would ask that everyone wait until details are out before commenting on whether it is fair pricing or not!
HTH!
TomWith respect, I did not call back to see how the new release was doing, I can understand that implementing new tools can take time, but for me, at this time, I am not interested if that upgrade will be free or cost hundreds.
TS latest release as now been out for what, 12 months, there are many known bugs,.. why do users have to wait for the completion of an upgrade before bug fixes are released for the version owned/ still being sold. Would it not make sense to release a bugfix for the current version ASAP? It would then allow users to use the software as expected and would have a knock on effect possibly bringing in new users (sales for caligari) due to shown support.
Its the same for Vray which I purchased.
Regards,
-Stem |
Post by TomG // Jul 11, 2008, 8:33am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I can only repeat my previous comment (which was not in reply to your post, but the one immediate prior to my post). Basically, no-one has yet announced whether bug fixes are free, imminent, paid, separate from the upgrade, only in the upgrade, a long way off, etc.
Yet people are making statements as if they know what will be announced - my request is that everyone waits until they see how we are handling it, and then make their comments on how we have handled it.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by Stem // Jul 11, 2008, 1:24pm
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Basically, no-one has yet announced whether bug fixes are free, imminent, paid, separate from the upgrade, only in the upgrade, a long way off, etcThat is actually the main problem/concern.
If that cannot be seen as a problem, well,........... |
Post by nowherebrain // Jul 11, 2008, 1:38pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I can only repeat my previous comment (which was not in reply to your post, but the one immediate prior to my post). Basically, no-one has yet announced whether bug fixes are free, imminent, paid, separate from the upgrade, only in the upgrade, a long way off, etc.
Yet people are making statements as if they know what will be announced - my request is that everyone waits until they see how we are handling it, and then make their comments on how we have handled it.
HTH!
Tom
We have been waiting, and waiting, and waiting,(finger tapping sound here). If we wait too long or say nothing how does caligari know what we expect/want?
If I did not care about tS, I would not be so cynical. I would have just left the community.
BTW: bug fixes should always be free, unless someone is smoking something they should not be smoking. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jul 26, 2008, 6:58pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Curious! I wonder how some of the contributors to this thread are feeling now that tS7.6 is released? If I was Tom I would have been chuckling somewhat when I replied to these comments!;) |
Post by Tiles // Jul 26, 2008, 8:59pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Well, to wait over a year for a bugfix is nevertheless loots of time. Enough time to scare lots of users away. |
Post by Steinie // Jul 27, 2008, 5:37am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Since there will no longer be support for the free version (except for help at these Forums) Caligari could now post bug fixes and give the user the choice.
Dribble does that now.
It won't take up any of their time. |
Post by Stem // Jul 28, 2008, 4:05am
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Stem
Total Posts: 199
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Curious! I wonder how some of the contributors to this thread are feeling now that tS7.6 is released? Myself, not sure yet, I will first have to see if all the bugs reported for version 7.5 have now been fixed.
If there are now bugs in version 7.6, is it now a case of "well you got if for free, so you cannot complain about any bugs"?
I am also curious of the pricing of Version 8 (if/when it is released). Will there be an upgrade price, or will it now be classed as a new version at full price to all? or due to the plugin arrangement, are we going to see caligari/MS start selling tools to plugin.
I am also curious about the e-mail received about the release which contained:-
So what do you get that's new in trueSpace7.6 Modeling has been improved with all new Point Edit tools that give you more control over your point edit selections, and which feature new tools such as Vertex Healing and Edge SweepsNew tools in the modeling side,... am I reading that correctly, I thought the modeling side was now done and new tools where just going to the workspace.
Anyway, will download later and see.
- Stem |
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