New Rules with the MMC ?

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New Rules with the MMC ? // Rants and Raves

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Post by Mr. 3d // Dec 31, 2008, 6:05am

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Please give me your feedback on this :

The MMC rules clearly state "Use your own work. No pre-made, purchased or free models, please.
I think that as a competition, all models should be created by the artist. I feel that it is not truely their work if they use someone else's talent to fill in for their lack of experience or time. Competition should only include original modeling by the artist. I think it cheapens the original modeling concept.
If these rules are to be changed, then all models that are not created in the scene should be separately noted (as to not confuse your work with an outside source). Or, start a whole different competition that uses 3rd party models.

I think the MMC should only be based on original modeling !

Post by ProfessorKhaos // Dec 31, 2008, 7:50am

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In principle I'd agree. Just depends on how much we're splitting hairs. For instance, if you say that a pie is made from scratch, does that mean you've grown the berries for it too? If you have a library of textures that can really enhance your results but did you take the photos yourself? In large part we're relying on the honor system anyway.


Personally, I think if the required WIP thread is done properly, you get to see the evolution of the object such that you're familiar with it's construction. If a person can see "how you made it" then isn't that a large amount of the value of this contest anyway? I would include such consideration in my own vote, but that's just me.

Post by rjeff // Dec 31, 2008, 8:02am

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I have mixed ideas about this as well. If the mmc was about funiture lets say and you insert a store bought model in there then yes I agree..that is a no no. I my case with my house and the ivy and tree I used an external progam to build them but I customized it to my liking. I see no problem with that.

Post by kena // Dec 31, 2008, 8:40am

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The MMC is to show full process of building a scene. I would say that "purchased" or "free" models you get from the internet are a no-no. However, if you create an object or texture or even use a texture that you did not make, then it does not matter where you created it as long as you mention that. Some people use SILO to create a model. It could probably be created in TS, but they find it easier in the other program. No problems with that. However, a model that you got from another source would be bad.


I HOPE that makes sense. If not, let me know what is confusing and I will attempt to clarify.

Post by Mr. 3d // Dec 31, 2008, 9:02am

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Background images and materials are a given standard. My direction is towards TRUE trueSpace modeling. I believe that a competition on trueSpace modeling should only use trueSpace modeling. The same goes for PaintShop....If you can't model it in trueSpace, then you should not be allowed to make additions to a model from any outside source. This can get way out of hand if limits and standards aren't established....as they are heading towards now !
I believe that in competition:
------no out-sourcing on modeling is aloud
-or-
------specifically state in your final render what out-sourcing (3rd party additions) were used to create or enhance a model.

In my opinion, since this is a trueSpace competion, I think that no out-sourcing on modeling should be aloud. This, in my opinion, takes away from your true modeling potential and can mislead to others and new comers what can actually be created with trueSpace.
@ rjeff...your tree models can be created with trueSpace. I understand the time factor....but that's why there is a time factor. Create your trees for future models and save them to your object files.
All fairness aside....this is just my opinion !:)
This has nothing to do with loosing with the talented, unique, original, etc, etc...modeled scene that I made entirely in trueSpace (also adding how I did it to show no doubt and maybe be useful to someone else ?), etc, etc...... LOL:D;):p !!!

Please don't misunderstand me !!!
I just believe that ones true modeling potential can be lost by relying on another's work. I believe that out-sourcing for a trueSpace modeling competition is not a TRUE trueSpace modeling competition !

Post by nigec // Dec 31, 2008, 9:06am

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This current MMC would be a breeze if you could hack up Poser or Daz models, but something like that is definitely out of order..

I did use ivy gen in my pumpkinhead picture but I made a point of mentioning it , it was barely visible anyway


I see these contest as a way to try new things, sometimes there's a lot of compromise just to get close to what I imagined the scene is supposed to look like.

I really suck at characters so I haven't really figured out what to do with the current theme, but we'll see :)

Post by rjeff // Dec 31, 2008, 9:19am

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I see this as what is the contex of the MMC or SMC for that matter. Look at it this way. If the MMC is about trees, then no I agree no tree gen or anything like that. Or in the case of the current MMC I agree with Nigec. Using Poser or Make Human to do the brunt work would be wrong if the people or people parts are the focus of the scene. If a tree or a person is not the focus of the scene then by all means use the 3rd party. Like my house it was the main focus..so I built it. The tree and the ivy were just there for composition and I used 3rd party. I do not feel that, that takes away from the MMC. Then Mr 3d if your logic holds true then nobody can use V-Ray or Dribble. Just Lightworks.

Post by tahnoak // Dec 31, 2008, 9:56am

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Being new to the MMC I can only add from what little experience I have gained thus far.


I'm of the mindset that that there should not be any third party models or other post production work on critical parts of the scene. I am not so sure about a total prohibition against all third party products (though I don't use Vray and don't know what Dribble is).


Being that I am new to this, I don't really care which way we go with it because I have not developed any dependencies on third party programs (except cgtextures.com...if that gets barred then I'm done for sure :D )


I enjoyed everybody's entries in the MMC this month; but I don't believe for one minute that everybody who voted looked at each person's WIP's and read through the discussions. I am sure there were probably some folks who looked at the final renderings and picked what they thought was the best one. No offense to you rjeff you did a great job on yours.


No matter how the rules change the outcome is still in the hands of the voters who may, or may not, even understand what they are looking at.

Post by Steinie // Dec 31, 2008, 10:12am

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First: the Rules should be posted again for this MMC.

Second:
Rule #6 says
" Indicate tools used to create your submission. trueSpace (any version) should be the primary application used to create the image. Post Processing in a paint program is okay."

So if you use an ivy generator state it. If you used Photoshop at the end state it. Let the voters decide the rest. The Main tool should be trueSpace.

I think the focus has and should be the development of your own talents and not winning the darn Challenge. It is a carrot on the stick and the carrot isn't so hot. Becoming better with trueSpace should be your reward. This argument for "pure" trueSpace goes back 20 years!!!

Post by jamesmc // Dec 31, 2008, 10:39am

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Dang, and I had a 'butt casting' of Steinie I wanted to incorporate into the MMC.

Post by rjeff // Dec 31, 2008, 10:45am

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James you never cease to amuse me..

Post by Finis // Dec 31, 2008, 10:53am

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Let's all remember that the MMC is for fun, is a modeling competition, no one disagrees that trueSpace should be the main program used.

A few rules are needed to define the nature of the contest and to organize it. More rules and it is not fun and few will participate. A few more and the rules don't even work as a coherent orderly system. The moderator or host of each MMC can make reasonable decisions without ten thousand rules and he gets to make the rules anyway.

I think few voters know or care what the rules are and vote for the picture they like for aesthetic reasons.

My opinion:
- Contestant must reveal in WIP how and where non TS tools used.
- Hero objects modeled in TS. It's a modeling competition.
- Render with TS built in, plugin, or renderer available through a plugin. (LW, Vray, 3Dlight via dribble, ...)
- Plugins are ok.
- Objects already made by a contestant with TS are ok. Objects modeled by other people are not ok.
- Plant generators, MakeHuman, terrain generators, etc., ok for non-hero objects if the contestant must do more with them than pick a premade object.
- Post production and texture 2D processing ok.
- Texture images incl. not made by contestant, plugin shaders, and external texture image tools ok.

The usual rules are fine with me.

(jamesmc, guess the butt casting would fit this month's theme of Warped and an earlier one of Strange Discovery.)

Post by Mr. 3d // Dec 31, 2008, 12:26pm

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I tried to express my opinions (and that of others) in a concise and nice way....but now I'm going to be blunt:

Then Mr 3d if your logic holds true then nobody can use V-Ray or Dribble..

V-Ray and Dribble has nothing to do with creating the wire frameworks of a model. Point said, without the trees and ivy, your scene (rjeff) would be nothing more than a nicely textured house on a poor attempt at a textured lawn.

On another note:
It was desired, which brought about the SMC Pole, that the beauty renders (renders textured by PaintShop, rather than by trueSpace) be exhibited as separate images....not as SMC entrants ! I feel that this should also be applied with the MMC, because you are net getting the TRUE representation from trueSpace. If you need to clean up the wavy lines that trueSpace makes on its objects and you need to sign and reduce your image, this is what PaintShop is for !
Anything else is not trueSpace modeling.;)
Anyone who does this may fool some of the people some of the time....but I see and know the difference !

(jamesmc, guess the bust casting would fit this month's theme of Warped and an earlier one of Strange Discovery.)

Steinie....you've got to admit that's funny !!!:D

rjeff.....this is not aimed at you. You just happened to be at the wrong time. Even though I don't really acknowledge one, you'll always be on my friends list !:)

Post by jamesmc // Dec 31, 2008, 12:37pm

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What is art?

Art is the process or product of deliberately and creatively (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_arts) arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense) or emotions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotions) - Wikipedia

I think there has to be a decision if this is going to be a modeling contest with pure technical skill involved or in concert with the "Picasso" that lives in all of us.

Abstract or realism, cubist or modern, traditional or futuristic...

Show casing what one's talents or strong suits is often in the realm of ego with a tad of insecure minimalism.

How can we endeavor to travel to the farthest point if we don't take the first step?

Concept, execution, delivery and presentation...

Post by TomG // Dec 31, 2008, 1:02pm

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As per the SMC, this one is a community thing. The way I saw the SMC was that it was all about modeling skill, but the MMC was really about artistic skill. The intent was not to showcase modeling ability (that was the SMC's role), but to showcase overall artistic ability. A kind of Caligari monthly gallery, but with a specific topic selected by the users.


As such, the same sort of rules applied - don't buy models, arrange them, and call the scene your own; but also you are creating a finished work, and in doing so professionals usually use more than one tool, and so you can too. Use your texture program, add that sepia effect to make it look like an old photograph, generate a background tree in order to finish your scene. All those (to my mind) were acceptable.


Again it is up to the community, but while I have seen the SMC stray from its intent, the MMC to me never did seem to stray at all and as such didn't seem to be needing extra rules defined to set it back on track. But again its a community contest, so it is up to you guys and gals to define it and run it as you choose! Just my thinking on it :)


HTH!

Tom

Post by Mr. 3d // Dec 31, 2008, 1:32pm

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Okay Tom....so you're telling me that I can create a grain of salt with tS and the rest can be my oil painting or PaintShop creation and enter that in the monthly Caligari contest in order to win V-Ray. This is exactly what I'm talking about....A gradual straying away from overall trueSpace modeling....and poeple pretending to claim that there entire scene was created with trueSpace, instead of just a little grain of salt !

SMC...Speed Modeling Challenge (trueSpace)
MMC...Monthly Modeling Challeng (trueSpace)

This competition is for trueSpace....not Daz, not Poser, not any other 3rd party application.
If you want to show off your artistic ability with other applications, put it in your own gallery.
This is my opinion ! Pretty soon, there will be no trueSpace art....only other applications that already have the creative art work done for you. TrueSpace has strong modeling capabilities....why put it on the shelf and buy another's art for your challenge !

Post by jamesmc // Dec 31, 2008, 1:58pm

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Well, it's a modeling competition, but modeling imo is more than just adjusting vertices. It's a complete process.

I agree to a certain extent that all work should be done in tS and with the help of some 2D application for texturing.

Otherwise, there would be no need for the PSD plug-in that writes PSD files for post work.

I sometimes use Illustrator to make compliant AI files. Designs that are so intricate, that it would be extremely tedious to do in 3D. Lattice work, fancy scrolling and etc.

Some people use photographs for texturing and blend it in when shaders from tS. This is a good thing in my opinion.

If i was to totally design and complete something in another application like Houdini or Autocad, enter it in a contest, I would see an objection.

Take the recent winner - a house with a vine on it. Personally, it's no biggie to me that an external program was used to make the vine. Although I can probably do it in a 2D program and import a vine plant via AI, the capability to design plants in tS is not inherent to the program without great skill and managable file size. This would leave out a lot of people to compete.

The reason I voted for the house was that the lighting and the texturing was very nice. It had a sense of realism and it was 'balanced.' The vine could have been missing and I would still have viewed it and voted in the same way.

My goal in 3D is to make animatable models. To me, if it doesn't move and provide perspective with different viewpoints of shadow and effect, it ain't 3D. But, that's my standard.

Post by ProfessorKhaos // Dec 31, 2008, 3:55pm

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Well, it's a modeling competition, but modeling imo is more than just adjusting vertices. It's a complete process.



Quite correct Jamesmc! It's even been stated that way in some of the past challenge announcements.


December 2008 MMC Challenge – Abandoned


Overview


The competition is open to all forum users - the idea being to have a challenge that is geared more towards the complete 3D development cycle from concept through modelling, surfacing, lighting, rendering, and post process. This is a chance for trueSpace user's to really show their stuff and help motivate the production of portfolio quality images.


The Rules


1) Submissions must express the stated topic.

2) Use your own work. No pre-made, purchased or free models, please.

3) You must start a Work In Progress (WIP) thread for your submission.

4) Final submissions should be a single image (800 x 600 max) and a link to your WIP thread.

5) There are no restrictions to the amount of images you can place on your WIP thread.

6) Indicate tools used to create your submission. trueSpace (any version) should be the primary application used to create the image. Post Processing in a paint program is okay.



As everyone can see, rule 6 clearly indicates that trueSpace is to be the primary application used and that it doesn't exclude the use of other apps in a lesser role. If you believe someone is not following this rule then the rule is not to blame for the shortfall. Coming up with additional rules is unlikely to remedy this.


We haven't exactly determined a process to disqualify an artwork "officially" and I hope we never get to that point because, quite frankly, that means people are either cheating or so suspicious of others that our sense of community gets flushed along with the honor system we rely upon.

Post by rjeff // Dec 31, 2008, 4:40pm

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Now Mr 3D I value your opinion and respect it, however I don't like you knocking my image. If you don't like it, that is fine, if you want to offer construcive criticism that is fine. But don't down my stuff. Nobody on here does that. I am not mad...I am just giving you some friendly adivce.

Post by ProfessorKhaos // Dec 31, 2008, 4:59pm

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I think this contest stuff is being taken a bit too seriously. It's supposed to be fun!

Post by kena // Dec 31, 2008, 5:06pm

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I agree ProfessorKhaos. Let's go back to the very FIRST MMC to see what Jack Edwards set it up for... I THINK that this was the first one....

August Monthly Modeling Challenge -- Topic: Space

Here goes the launch of a new modeling challenge. :D

The idea is to have a challenge that is geared more towards the complete 3D development cycle from concept through modeling, surfacing, lighting, rendering, and post process. This is a chance for TSer's to really show there stuff and help motivate the production of portfolio quality images.

The contest will have a 3 week deadline with the week following used for voting. Winner will select the next month's topic and run that month's challenge just like we're doing in the SMC challenges. It's up to the community to participate and keep the challenge going.

I've come up with some basic rules:

1.) Submission expresses the topic. If topic is an object, then it must include at least one instance of the object which should be the focus of the image.
2.) Use your own work. No pre-made purchased or free models, please.
3.) Start a Work In Progress thread for your submission.
4.) Submission should be one 800x600 image and a link to your WIP thread.
5.) Indicate tools used to create your submission. TS should be the primary application used to create the image. Post Processing in a paint program is ok.

It's important that everyone who's planning to enter start a WIP thread. With difficult challenges like this many entries are over ambitious and don't make it to completion so in many cases it may be likely that judging will have to take place on the WIPs. ;)
I've bolded the really important thing. The challange was to det up a WIP and let other people see how you do your thing. It is to SHARE your pocess. If your process while modeling in TS is to go to a different program and create a tree and then import it into TS... Then that is what you do. and you SAY that it is what you do.

I think that if people want a challenge that only uses TS, then they should do what Jack and the first people did. Create one. We can always have more contests. The ones that will keep going are the ones that people like to enter.

Post by Mr. 3d // Dec 31, 2008, 6:22pm

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rjeff....I wasn't knocking at your house...I like it very much ! I did, however, cut on your grass....sorry, I didn't see the no tresspassing sign !:)

Everybody seems to be avoiding rule #2 with this issue.
Kena pointed out a very good area: More poeple should show there process and some wireframes, instead of just pre finalized images.
I'm just trying to make a point about the future of the trueSpace modeling challenge scenes. I guess I need to stop beating around the bush:D ! My point is well described. We'll see what happens in the future !

I know that I feel more comfortable knowing that I don't need PaintShop or any other's creations for a trueSpace modeling crutch in an SMC or an MMC.

Post by Steinie // Dec 31, 2008, 8:34pm

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Rule #2 doesn't say you can't create a vine or tree using software. It means you cannot use a tree or vine pre-made.


So everyone is concerned with the rules, bla bla bla. Hey how about designing your next great project!


Me?

Well I'm busy trying to sign a deal with JamesMc for my 'butt casting' royalties.

I didn't know his butt camera was on.

Post by noko // Dec 31, 2008, 8:40pm

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We could always have an intergrated with tS contest if goal is to create something in multitude of programs with tS being the largest contributor of the bunch which some of my projects are. Something that the Caligari monthly contest would allows if most work was done in tS and was rendered in tS.


In SMC it is tS modeling all the way, clear and precise and I like the new rules better to get more emphasis on modeling efficiently. Really has been helping me out there plus alot of fun.


Now I always thought MMC was using tS to model a complete scene, no use of outside 3d programs for modeling of any objects even if exported and brought back in and definitely no bought models or manipulated models. As for texturing I thought that was up to the user what to use, from UV mapping, bought textures, self made etc.. Also MMC needs to be rendered in tS and not outside program. Plugins are also allowed but should be stated what was used. I don't understand the problem here even after reading this thread. Maybe since I've havn't done a MMC yet, I need too, I am missing the issue so far.

Post by jamesmc // Dec 31, 2008, 11:27pm

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Rule #2 doesn't say you can't create a vine or tree using software. It means you cannot use a tree or vine pre-made.

So everyone is concerned with the rules, bla bla bla. Hey how about designing your next great project!

Me?
Well I'm busy trying to sign a deal with JamesMc for my 'butt casting' royalties.
I didn't know his butt camera was on.

Indeed it is!

Post by ProfessorKhaos // Jan 1, 2009, 12:30am

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lol! Make the toilet seat and mirrors melt and we have our new MMC (potential) winner! :)


Good one Jamesmc! We needed some more humor in this thread! :)

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 1, 2009, 5:09am

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James....you crack me up !!!:D

Post by Steinie // Jan 1, 2009, 5:13am

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Does anyone know HR's phone number?...That looks like my cube at work!...:p;)

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 1, 2009, 5:22am

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Steinie.......I heard "Your job isn't finished, until the paperwork is done" !

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 1, 2009, 6:57am

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...now i always thought mmc was using ts to model a complete scene, no use of outside 3d programs for modeling of any objects and definitely no bought models or manipulated models. I am missing the issue so far.

......17291
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