New Rules with the MMC ?

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New Rules with the MMC ? // Rants and Raves

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Post by noko // Jan 1, 2009, 7:39am

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lol :D. Maybe entry in this months MMC.

Post by Weevil // Jan 1, 2009, 7:56am

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First: the Rules should be posted again for this MMC.

Second:
Rule #6 says
" Indicate tools used to create your submission. trueSpace (any version) should be the primary application used to create the image. Post Processing in a paint program is okay."

So if you use an ivy generator state it. If you used Photoshop at the end state it. Let the voters decide the rest. The Main tool should be trueSpace.

I think the focus has and should be the development of your own talents and not winning the darn Challenge. It is a carrot on the stick and the carrot isn't so hot. Becoming better with trueSpace should be your reward. This argument for "pure" trueSpace goes back 20 years!!!

Agreed 100%

like with the SMC, its called evolution, and I notice the winners no longer set any rules, jsut the topic, if you win it, YOU can decide if it's "true"space modelling

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 1, 2009, 8:27am

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... its called evolution

"Evolution Revolution" !!!:D

Post by kena // Jan 1, 2009, 9:38am

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...and I notice the winners no longer set any rules, jsut the topic, if you win it, YOU can decide if it's "true"space modelling

Perhaps this is an oversight this month?

I have not seen the rules missing before when a challenge was set.

Post by Weevil // Jan 1, 2009, 10:34am

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well, what I meant in this case is that the rules seem to not fit this month or in some places, the winner of the topic can always change the rules to fit the spec or their preference. Which can also give more options as to the competition, the rules have been copy and pasted for a while now, and they just sometimes don't fit with what some people want in that certain topic.

So yeah...a bit of an oversight this month, but if say I have an issue with someone using pre-made trees, then if I win the MMC then I get to say "no pre-made trees" or something

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 1, 2009, 2:46pm

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WINNERS CHOICE is not a bad idea....but then again, that addresses all fairness with all Forum members. Let's say the new winner wants to include a 3rd party application that they are already familiar with....This gives them a distinky advantage over everyone else.
The rules for the modelling challenges are already getting bent too far. If you don't want to include a background image with the SMC...then say so.
What I'm saying is....keep it to your own modeling ! If you can't model a dog, don't use an outside application. If you can't model glasses, don't paint it on in PaintShop. Given that all photo materials found and used inside of trueSpace (Caligari Materials) are fully acceptable as part of trueSpace modelling (just as applying a selected background from your Render choice inside of trueSpace is acceptable).
In my opinion, to include all balance within the trueSpace MMC or SMC, this has been the standard view point and should stay that course. This was the whole idea behind this Thread.
Where does the rule bending stop ?!!;)

Post by Weevil // Jan 1, 2009, 3:14pm

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I think this is the point where you're going to have to trust the judgement of other users instead of trying to make rules so airtight there's no manouvering room. I fail to really see that others have been using other applications or models unfairly, its been stated when an object hasn't been used, and never have these objects or images been primary to the scene

"2) Use your own work. No pre-made, purchased or free models, please."
"6) Indicate tools used to create your submission. trueSpace (any version) should be the primary application used to create the image. Post Processing in a paint program is okay."

I don't think there have been any bending of the rules, like I say, for the past what....half a year it seems we've copy and pasted the same ruleset, postprocessing is fine because you've got to have the work done, psot processing is retouching what you already have, I know I've done it, and I know I've stated it, my November entry got me into post processing and my work's made a bit of a jump up in quality

truespace has and always will be the primary application but I don't think restricting workflow which has potential for use in places other than just this MMC is really the point of the challenge, its designed for you to get better and have fun and the rules incorporate this well, we're all "gentlemen" here? We say when somethings not our work, and if you check, its never primary to our scenes

I honestly cannot see an issue

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 1, 2009, 3:46pm

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I'm just shedding light on the modeling subject when it comes to the challenges. If you don't understand my point, read it all again. If you want to act coy about it....I think you over PaintShopped your War of the Worlds image to where it took away from the true render that trueSpace offered you.

My point is...the MMC and SMC are trueSpace challenges....Not PaintShop...Not 3rd party applied applications.
Some poeple may not have these extra options to beautify or touch up what you believe is best.
Instead of voting on a trueSpace image, you end up voting on a PaintShop enhanced image...that may include 3rd party models.
I'm not trying to change any rules or cause a major stink...I'm just shedding light on how I interpreted the original rules to be applied and where they are heading in the future !
I thought that we might have ended this earlier on a Happy Note...with my point being said and addressed.....But Noooooo...You had to get my juices flowing again !!!;):D

Post by kena // Jan 1, 2009, 4:24pm

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OK... so here is my point. The rules have always stated that TS must be the primary application for your scene. That does not state that it must be the ONLY application.

Back when Caligari was it's own company, THEIR challenge was the same way. Now that MS owns it, those rules have changed.

One of the reasons for the MMC was to give people a chance to vote on a scene that may or may not win given the judging of the one submitted to corporate.

But - hey. Change the rules for the MMC to be just like the Caligallery one, and I will happily not participate.

This is noting that I very rarely use outside objects in my MMC entries. However, I feel that with the Official contest rules having changed to only TS it is more important than ever for someone to have a place that they use their entire process for a community to see.


That's just the way I feel about it. I'm obviously not the best modeler here, and I'm sure that the contest will go on just fine without me.

Post by Steinie // Jan 1, 2009, 4:29pm

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On 10/23/2006 I posted this observation:


http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=1481&highlight=photoshop+gallery&page=2


Like I said before this stuff has been talked about until I was blue in the face. I did come to realize one of the Golden Rules by answering this riddle.


What do you call a trueSpace Artist that doesn't use Photoshop?


Answer: "An Amateur"

Post by kena // Jan 1, 2009, 5:03pm

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On 10/23/2006 I posted this observation:


http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=1481&highlight=photoshop+gallery&page=2


Like I said before this stuff has been talked about until I was blue in the face. I did come to realize one of the Golden Rules by answering this riddle.


What do you call a trueSpace Artist that doesn't use Photoshop?


Answer: "An Amateur"Yep - that's me I'm an Amateur. And I really don't mind being one, since I don't use 3D to do a job. It's a hobby with me.

Post by jamesmc // Jan 1, 2009, 5:15pm

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I agree with Steinie on Photoshop use (actually any program that can use PSD FILES.)

Multi-pass rendering is built-in as part of tS and should never be excluded as an option to use in a final product.

Even plug-ins shouldn't be excluded as they are made specifically for tS.

I like the idea of submitting an unsubdivided mesh like the SMC has now though.

It provides insight for others on your technique and may help someone out with their project.

It took me awhile to figure out I didn't need to boolean a hole into something, when I could just make a rectangle or square, subdivide it and have a much cleaner mesh.

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 1, 2009, 5:52pm

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On 10/23/2006 I posted this observation:

http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=1481&highlight=photoshop+gallery&page=2

Like I said before this stuff has been talked about...

In that thread they discussed lighting...not wireframed models.

What do you call a trueSpace Artist that doesn't use Photoshop?

Answer: "An Amateur"

Your mentality is backwards Steinie. You can't model a mustache in truSpace, so you paint one on in PaintShop. I can make a mustache in trueSpace....Who's the amateur ?

PaintShop was initially intended as a touch up (lighting, wavy lines), not as a means to model !
I suggest you let it go and go back to your office. My point has been made. Why do you wish to proceed ? Nobody can win !:)

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 1, 2009, 6:26pm

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...I like the idea of submitting an unsubdivided mesh like the SMC has now though.

It provides insight for others on your technique and may help someone out with their project.

It took me awhile to figure out I didn't need to boolean a hole into something, when I could just make a rectangle or square, subdivide it and have a much cleaner mesh.

If it were not for the screen grags from the different poeple sharing their modeling flow, besides the point that trueSpace is much easier to learn than Blender, I would have abandoned trueSpace for good a couple months back ! Actually, Steinie's Castle Thread got me inspired to dig into trueSpace once again for a second go at it !

Post by Steinie // Jan 1, 2009, 6:27pm

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I thought the focus of this discussion was the MMC and not the SMC. (your title says MMC)

They have different Rules. The SMC focuses on Modeling. The MMC focuses on the whole process including Post Processing. Just like "real life"

Lighting isn't the issue?

OK Model your mustache and render it without lights and tell me how great it is.

In the MMC lighting just might be the most "important" part of the process, not the model. In time you will see that.(pun intended):p

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 1, 2009, 6:38pm

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I'm discussing wireframe modeling.....not lighting. It is OK to use PaintShop for lighting and fixing wavy lines (Post Process).......not for creating wireframed models.
How hard is it to "shed light on this" ?!:D

Post by jamesmc // Jan 1, 2009, 11:00pm

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Your mentality is backwards Steinie. You can't model a mustache in truSpace, so you paint one on in PaintShop. I can make a mustache in trueSpace....Who's the amateur ?

PaintShop was initially intended as a touch up (lighting, wavy lines), not as a means to model !
I suggest you let it go and go back to your office. My point has been made. Why do you wish to proceed ? Nobody can win !:)

I don't think anyone is using PhotoShop to model anything, although one can if they wish. Probably not in the MMC though.

PSD files are used for much more than touch up and lighting.

(1) Multi-pass render - that is, change the mood or emotion of an image file. Levels balance etc.
(2) Saves an enormous amount of render time, especially when different versions are needed (with or without background, different backgrounds) night and day scenarios,etc.
(3) Becomes important in animation, psd can be imported into a program like Adobe After Effects to change, modify or even add additional elements using depth of field passes.
(4) Add special effects to a single shot or to a multi-frame animation.
(5) Easier storage of files and further processed in an PSD application to save time, money and resources.

I could go on, but using PSD files is an industry standard and practice.

Let's not re-invent the wheel or drop the reins on the horse to get from point A to B.

If it were just all about modeling, then we'd be stuck in the old black and white world of CAD programs. How boring!

Post by Breech Block // Jan 1, 2009, 11:02pm

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Good grief, is this still going on! Haven't you people got models to make and scenes to build. :D Let me see if I can put an end to all this.


My point is...the MMC and SMC are trueSpace challenges...


And therein lies the flaw of your argument. The SMC and MMC are not truespace challenges - they are community challenges. And, judging by the way you seem to pour scorn on other community members work and have an unnecessary fondness for communicating in a bold font all the time, one can only surmise that is clearly beyond your understanding.


Now, take some friendly advice. Give it up and move on.

Post by jamesmc // Jan 1, 2009, 11:08pm

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The SMC and MMC are not truespace challenges - they are community challenges.

Bingo!

Give that man (Breech Block) a cigar.

Post by noko // Jan 2, 2009, 1:30am

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I really don't see the significance of using Paintshop, Photoshop or any paint program to supplicment MMC. One needs to process textures which in WS allows outside program to help the UV editor. I Understand no mesh building outside of tS unless maybe it is incorprated in a tS plugin. tS lightworks allows multipass rendering to be used in Photoshop because it is a very powerful tool working with tS. Also works with Paintshop Pro.


I like that contest winner has some say so for next contest. So something like no paint program used or something could be stated as mentioned before for just that one round but not forced everytime. Keeping it interesting and pushing new avenues with new tools needed maybe (as in possible free plug ins) I think would be very benificial and keep the contests more excitting.


Yes, I understand, no mesh building outside of tS (except plug-ins made for tS).

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 2, 2009, 5:24am

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@ Breech Block......You know exactly what I mean...Use the trueSpace application to create your wireframe models. No other applications.
17306

@ jamemc.....I know exactly what PaintShop is for. Steinie used it to model his mustache and hair in the last MMC.

I am airing my opinion so that it may not get out of hand ! I believe that the MMC and SMC should remain as trueSpace wireframed models.....No 3rd party applications. I'm just viewing my point. I'm not the one wishing to further pursue this topic....you are Breech, and anyone else who wishes to challenge my opinions. That's all they are....OPINIONS !!!

Post by ProfessorKhaos // Jan 2, 2009, 6:05am

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From Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Sir Bedevere: What makes you think she's a witch?

Peasant 3: Well, she turned me into a newt!

Sir Bedevere: A newt?

Peasant 3: [meekly after a long pause] ... I got better.

Crowd: [shouts] Burn her anyway!


Guess I should have figured out that this thread wasn't about getting feedback after all. You guys go ahead and knock heads together. I got better things to do with my new year.

Post by Finis // Jan 2, 2009, 6:06am

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The MMC rules are not laws. There aren't fines or jail time and no one is forced to participate. If you don't like the rules set for a month then don't participate. You can make your own pictures outside of the MMC and do it any way you want to.


The rules are made by the winner. That allows many different sets of rules to be tried. Imposing a permanent rule or rules would remove that part of the prize for winning.


Instead of arguing about it why not work to win the power to set rules, set yours, and see how they fare in competition with others? If some prove more popular, more fun, whatever, than others then more winners will use them.

Post by Weevil // Jan 2, 2009, 6:20am

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This is getting a little silly now. We've got nothing more to gain from this discussion, we know what you're saying mr 3D, and I hope you know what everyone else is saying, but as it stands everything's been covered and maybe next month the rules might change. But this discussion has kinda been a bit of a "fun sponge".

Whatever comes of this discussion I don't want whatever happens to affect the fun and what I gain from the MMC, or else there will be no point for it.

I think I've now covered everything I have to say on it

Edit: Apologies if my opinion sound like a bit of unnessarsary moderation there...

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 2, 2009, 6:20am

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I've only seen one set of rules...and you approached me on that awhile back Finis (about modeled characters).

I've just aired my opinions...and so have others. But now I'm starting to feel like King Kong swatting off his attackers....I'm not a bad guy ! Just sometimes I forget the age range here and I get a little too BLUNT ! Sorry for causing such a STINK !!!:p
Can we let it rest now ?!!!;)

Post by Steinie // Jan 2, 2009, 8:35am

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.....I know exactly what PaintShop is for. Steinie used it to model his mustache and hair in the last MMC.
[/FONT][/B]

I hope this was a joke because it isn't true! I used workSpace hair, and I don't own Paintshop.

Post by rjeff // Jan 2, 2009, 9:07am

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Ok guys I think this innocent enough topic has drasticaly gone down hill. How about we close this out and agree to this. The winner can set the rules as long as the confrom to what Jack started. Inother words if Mr3d wins he can state in his rules that only TS is to be used. I think this would solve alot of issues, becuse you can read into the rules and get your own idea of it.

Post by jamesmc // Jan 2, 2009, 9:36am

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@ Breech Block......You know exactly what I mean...Use the trueSpace application to create your wireframe models. No other applications.
17306

@ jamemc.....I know exactly what PaintShop is for. Steinie used it to model his mustache and hair in the last MMC.

I am airing my opinion so that it may not get out of hand ! I believe that the MMC and SMC should remain as trueSpace wireframed models.....No 3rd party applications. I'm just viewing my point. I'm not the one wishing to further pursue this topic....you are Breech, and anyone else who wishes to challenge my opinions. That's all they are....OPINIONS !!!


Actually, I own three different 3D programs I can do dynamic hair with.

It's Photoshop btw not paintshop. :D

Post by Steinie // Jan 2, 2009, 9:47am

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I own Photoshop CS Version 8 and it is news to me that I can create hair or model with it.

I guess I could use my Carrara Pro to do hair but didn't. Silo 1 or 2 I don't use for the MMC or SMC.

Hexagon 2.5...nope no hair. I guess I'm stuck with tS. See I'm "forced" to follow the rules!

If I used Dribble ahhh now that would work. Maybe this month.

I'm thinking now about cutting my hair off and using a scanner...is that allowed? You know alpha mask and all that.

Just call me Budda.

Attached is a wireframe of my new Budda head

Post by Mr. 3d // Jan 2, 2009, 10:41am

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LOL !!!:D You all just keep digging !!! I'm beginning to think you enjoy this !

Steinie.....you clearly stated that you drew them on.

......I have PaintShop Pro myself. It has always been one of my favorite programs !

I can keep going on if you really enjoy digging at me:D!!!
You can twist it or try and turn it to your advantage all you like.
This is getting more twisted than Dali's cool art !!!:D
Maybe I should just make this my Dali WIP !!!;)

But I suggest we all listen to rjeff's suggestion.....which, by the way, has been my suggestion quite a few times already !!!
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