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Manual
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Manual // Rants and Raves
Post by bg01 // May 14, 2007, 12:41pm
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bg01
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You know, this software may be VERY VERY good, but the documentation really SUCKS! And I can's see spending 3X what the software cost to learn how to use it. For that price, I might as well upgrade my 3D MAX to the current version.
(At least I got a decent tutorial manual with the reference manual with it.) |
Post by Burnart // May 14, 2007, 1:08pm
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Burnart
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I can't speak for Max specifically but my general experience of manuals is that by necessity they assume you know what is on every page except the one you are currently looking at!
There are plenty of tutorials scattered throughout the manual - what might help is a comprehensive tutorial index so we didn't have to flick through a 1000 pages of pdf to find them. There are also the various courses available for purchase and download. I believe there is also going to be a more extensive online manual developed which will include videos - too bad it isn't up and running ready for the 7.5 release - I guess the software itself had greater priority.
I don't know what the Max update cost is but I wonder how it compares to tS7.5 plus several courses? |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 14, 2007, 1:20pm
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Jack Edwards
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Don't forget that that's the base price for Max that you're probably comparing to. To get serious work done, you'd probably have to spend another several thousand more for plugins and VRay.... ;)
Max also has a very unintuitive interface (more like a cad program) and Max training videos aren't exactly cheap either.
-Jack. |
Post by Steinie // May 14, 2007, 2:23pm
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Their manuals need to be QA'd just like the Software. For a Newbie or someone wanting more information, referring to the manual only to find out it's not correct is a reflection of the software too. Each chapter should be done by TWO people not one. Each checking the other. Finally the chapter is given to someone not familiar and asked to test. |
Post by Burnart // May 14, 2007, 2:35pm
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Burnart
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Their manuals need to be QA'd just like the Software. For a Newbie or someone wanting more information, referring to the manual only to find out it's not correct is a reflection of the software too. Each chapter should be done by TWO people not one. Each checking the other. Finally the chapter is given to someone not familiar and asked to test.
Makes a lot of sense to me. The final point about the tester being someone unfamiliar with that task is crucial. I've done tutes where I swear to god I followed the instructions with total precision only to have it not work because some aspect which is second nature to the author has been omitted. If you are working from a book it can be immensely frustrating. (I guess with Caligari you can always come to this forum!) |
Post by Steinie // May 14, 2007, 2:41pm
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Your correct about that! But come to the forum because it wasn't clear not because it wasn't right. |
Post by Burnart // May 14, 2007, 3:10pm
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Steinie I agree absolutely. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 14, 2007, 4:44pm
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I agree with the idea mentioned in another thread that a workflow oriented approach is much more useful to learning how to get productive with an application. The reference style manual is more useful to someone who already knows what they are looking for. Tutorials are sort of a half way approach.
In general I've always found manuals frustrating and difficult to learn from and I've usually turned to 3rd party books or whatever training videos I could get my hands on. I'm very happy to see that video examples are being added to the manual.
Nowherebrain is working on some very inexpensive video training courses which is really cool and hopefully will be a help to a lot of people. Also these forums are a great resource.
-Jack. |
Post by bigbigblue // May 14, 2007, 8:18pm
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bigbigblue
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You know, this software may be VERY VERY good, but the documentation really SUCKS! And I can's see spending 3X what the software cost to learn how to use it.
I sure hope the new documentation starts to appear soon - as I am struggling with 7.5 and if I can't get to grips with it soon I will have to consider invoking the 30 day money back guarantee. |
Post by Burnart // May 14, 2007, 8:42pm
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When I got my first bit of 3d software I spent months rendering primitives and messing with lights and materials - the documentation wasn't to blame my level of inexperience was!
If you are new to a piece of software its a mistake to assume it is going to behave or operate in the same way as other bits of software you may have used. A complex program like tS7.5 is going to have a learning curve even for pros - all kinds of factors can determine how steep including the users desires. Manuals need to be communicative and UIs need to be efficient - as well as that users need to have realistic expectations. Problems people have with aquiring information are solvable through documentation, tutes, courses and forums - if they have specific issues. Just saying "the manual's rubbish" or something similar seems a bit too vague to deal with.
A 1000 page pdf manual less than a week since the software release ..................... at the risk of offending some people I wonder how realistic their expectations are. |
Post by bigbigblue // May 14, 2007, 9:10pm
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Burnart,
I agree with MOST of your observations. I use Microsoft Word every day at work and after several years I still don't use (or even know) everything it can do, and sometimes it just plain doesn't do what I expect it to. Such is the way of software.
But "Unreaslistic expectations"? I don't agree. The situation as I see it :
1. I purchased (on pre-release) TS7.5 on the basis of representations made by Caligari as to the functions available - and it looked great
2. No evaluation version is or was available, so the only option Caligari gave was to purchase it on the basis that I then had 30 days to evaluate it.
3. In order to evaluate it properly I need a manual which (for me at least) explains the basics of the new layouts and tools and (nice suggestion Splinters) workflows.
4. Maybe it is me, but at the moment I am struggling to get to grips with TS7.5 - this is not a criticism of TS7.5, far from it, the reason I am struggling is that it is so powerful I am overwhelmed by it.
5. An up to date manual would be a considerable help in getting to grips with the program.
6. If I can't get comfortable that I will be able to get to grips with it within the 30 days, I have a choice : keep it and hope I can make a go of it, or invoke the 30 day money back guarantee. I hope the first option prevails.
Not at all a criticism of Caligari or TS7.5, just a result of the situation I find myself in. |
Post by xmanflash // May 14, 2007, 10:03pm
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A 1000 page pdf manual less than a week since the software release ..................... at the risk of offending some people I wonder how realistic their expectations are.
As I see it, the manual is a part of the software. If its not ready, then the software is not complete.
We keep seeming to create this image of poor little Roman and his overworked crew - they are so hard done by, and expecting them to do a job properly, or living up to promises is being unreasonable. Thats OK if you are a member of his family, but the rest of us do expect a certain level of quality, dictated by other tools in the software industry. We have all had to deal with crushing deadlines, and we all know how they get that way.
However to their credit, I think Roman and crew dealt with the v7 issues to hand remarkably well, and we all appreciate his Blog and communications. It makes us a little bit like a family I guess supporting the thing we know will get there one day, but don't forget that software is a commercial venture, and producing Manuals and Tutorials is an integral part of that. If its not done then somebody failed, its nothing to do with a user being rude.
I am sure they are working on it. And I am glad to have the software, even without the missing bits (I was especially looking forward to the video tutorials) as I have a little experience with it from V6.6 and 7.1. |
Post by Steinie // May 15, 2007, 1:29am
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BigBigBlue, I would seriously think about what Burnart recommended. Try to learn TS in small portions. I've been using TS since the Amiga days and still haven't tried certain functions. Just playing with it you will learn a lot. I too started with the Primitives, right click on them and modify. Then pick another tool and see what it does to the primitive. After a while you start feeling more comfortable.
Another way to learn is post a message here on what you like to create and we can suggest the tools you need to learn first. That could really help you get started quickly.
Post a question on the "Tutorium" Thread on what you want to learn. You'll be amazed on the help you will get! |
Post by bigbigblue // May 15, 2007, 2:16am
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BigBigBlue, I would seriously think about what Burnart recommended. Try to learn TS in small portions.
Stenie thanks and yes I understand that is the best way to go about learning it.
My point is that I only have 30 days after the download to decide if TS7.5 is right FOR ME - after that I no longer have the right to discontinue use and request a refund. Without an up to date manual that decision is going to prove much more difficult.
If I had a longer period or a full, up to date manual I wouldn't face that dilemma.
I feel like I am being asked to make my purchase decision without seeing the whole product - you wouldn't buy a car on that basis would you? |
Post by bg01 // May 15, 2007, 3:16am
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After going to the training page, I calculated the cost to purchase the tutorial/videos. The "fundamental" and "masters" combined cost is almost $2000. If you get a discount for buying them all, the cost is still, what?, another $1200. And if I purchase them, are they all going to teach me 7.5 or will half of them be 5.x or 6.x? And if that is the case, will that translate to 7.5 or will I still be trying to figure out the differences?
I can understand the need to keep costs down, but 3D graphics has a rather steep learning curve and with out good documentation, it's even worse.
I can understand subcontracting out a good manual to sell at a reasonable price. Max and Lightwave both have done this, as well as many other software packages (non graphics packages included), and you can usually pick up one or two good tutorial and/or reference book for around $40 to $50 each. But how many TrueSpace books are out there? None that I have found, that are still in print.
Will the online manual be available soon, and will we be able to download it for off line viewing?
As I stated originally, I think the software is VERY VERY good as the many uploaded scenes have shown, but seeing all these great scenes don't do much to help lessen the learning curve. |
Post by spacekdet // May 15, 2007, 5:43am
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After going to the training page, I calculated the cost to purchase the tutorial/videos. The "fundamental" and "masters" combined cost is almost $2000. If you get a discount for buying them all, the cost is still, what?, another $1200. And if I purchase them, are they all going to teach me 7.5 or will half of them be 5.x or 6.x?
This is where joining ProTeam is an advantage. It's still a significant outlay of cash, but nowhere near the cost of buying the video courses individually. Yes, some of them are getting 'long in the tooth'... but you can always hope that during your year's membership some relevant tS7 oriented tutorials will be released. However, even the older tutorials have something to offer. There are additional perqs to proTeam as well- plugins, textures, model libraries, free updates, etc.
No two ways around it, it's expensive, unless you are lucky and skilled enough to win the monthly caliGallery.
<Begin Rant>
Blah blah blah bitch whine moan blah blah blah
<End Rant> |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 15, 2007, 6:07am
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Jack Edwards
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I agree bg01 about the steep learning curve for 3d software, but it's important to differentiate between learning 3D and learning a particular 3D package.
A lot of the concepts are universal. Which is one of the reasons why I think workflow training is more useful. Concept, modeling, UV, texturing, lighting, rendering, post-process.
About the cost of the training videos, it's much more effective to just join proTeam. Which nets you all the training videos plus new ones made during your subscrition. Also you get all point upgrades during you subscription and the next full version (even if it's not during your subscription) included.
I also wholeheartedly agree that the videos are getting a bit aged with the HUGE changes in UI. Most probably are still useful for learning the model-side tools, but that doesn't seem like a good investment to me. Better to learn the Workspace tools and workflow which is the future of the application.
About my point about 3D vs. app specific training, personally I can say that I've learned the most from forums and training videos that were done for other applications, particularly Maya. There's a lot of talented people and industry professionals that use Maya and there's a lot to be learned from them and many of the methods used translate fairly well into TS. (With the exception of edge-modeling techniques... which need edge extrusion -- something that I've been bugging the devs about for a while now.)
About the current release, because of the expedited release schedule, I think Caligari was force to rely on the beta testing group and the forums to provide help and community support for the new release. There just wasn't time to fully update the manual. Personally I thought they were crazy to try for such an early release date, but they pulled it off reasonably well and for the most part the new tools are in functional order and I don't think anyone can seriously argue that 7.5 is not a HUGE improvement over 7.1. So I'm guessing Roman's choice was that he felt that the community had been waiting long enough and it was time to get the new tools and improvements into the hands of everyone who had been waiting for so long.
There is also the upside that by getting feedback from the community an gauge the success of the new approaches and what things might need to be taken in different directions. While the Caligari employees don't always acknowledge or respond in the forums (they are getting much better about this!! :) ), they are listening very much to what we say.
I have a project I'm working on that will hopefully be ready by 8.0 ;) that I think will help a lot with addressing some of the workflow training for TS. Really if you think about it, it's up to us the users to come up with training products. The TS team are programmers, and self admittedly, not artists. Can a programmer teach an artist to make art?
Hopefully the updates to the manual will make it out soon, but they need to hear from us about what parts of the manual need improvement an fixing. Now is the time to get this info to them.
-Jack. |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 15, 2007, 6:17am
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@Spacekdet:
I definitely agree with you about the ME being frustrating. It just doesn't give ANY feedback that it's working or not working. Even a button animation for clicking on the dropper or paint tool would be appreciated. The non-responsive images are very un-user-friendly and make me ask every time I click them, did it work???? :mad: Also the mess of separately appearing panels is a PAIN to work with. I'd be much happier with an expandable tree view and drop downs for selecting shader types.
-Jack. |
Post by Burnart // May 15, 2007, 2:51pm
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Not sure I've ever used a complex piece of software where it was "rainbows and lollipops" from the word go. Perhaps I'm just not clever enough.
As a hobbiest on a not particularly great wage I sure understand the cost problem and the need to get maximum bang from your buck. My reason for buying into tS was that here was a program that offered an extensive range of tools at a price I could afford - admittedly the top end of my price range. I wasn't naturally comfortable in the tS working environment from the word go and knew it was going to be a steep curve for me - and it has been. When I fronted my cash I never gave the 30 day moneyback thing a thought because I didn't expect to get very far in that time. If you are really working towards pumping out good models and renders in 30 days then good luck with that I hope it works out for you.
The manual and documention could stand some improvement I'm not arguing against that. I'm just not convinced its the only issue here. |
Post by Improv // May 15, 2007, 3:02pm
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Not sure I've ever used a complex piece of software where it was "rainbows and lollipops" from the word go.
I think some users have to realize that learning complex software is several times more complicated than, oh say-making toast or using a toothbrush. It never will be that easy, so their expectations are wholly unrealistic.
It's not a matter of being all that clever or smart-it's a case of the user committing to the effort needed to learn tS a bit at a time. |
Post by spacekdet // May 16, 2007, 1:22pm
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I've been 'making toast' since Pioneer, so it's not like I'm a noob at this.
I have to say this has been the least pleasant upgrade transition in my experience.
I expected to be putting out renders in a lot less than 30 days, not battling the schizophrenic nature of the UI for the first week.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Will I keep 7.5 or wait for 8? Time-at least the remainer of the 30 day trial- will tell. Maybe it'll grow on me.
Returning to the point of this thread (sorry for the threadjacking, BTW):
As far as the manual goes, I'm still waiting on the mailman so I can't comment yet on it's quality.
I prefer paper over PDF but having seen the mention that updated additions to the manual with some video goodies thrown in will be available in the future is a good sign. |
Post by Burnart // May 16, 2007, 1:53pm
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When you buy MAX or Maya etc regardless of the manual itself there are a whole wide range of books available which provide an enormous number of realworld tutes - tS doesn't have that kind of external support.
I can understand the use and need for a dry manual which says 'this is control "X" it does "function Z" and you activate it by doing "thus". However, there is a gap which needs filling -the courses that Caligari host are a partial but frankly overly expensive solution. I hope the proposed on-line manual starts to fill the gap. More info particularly on the LE and how to actually do USEFUL things with it is an absolute must no doubt about it.
BTW does anyone know a timeline on that? |
Post by bg01 // May 17, 2007, 12:23pm
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Why dosen't TrueSpace have 3rd party training/tutorial support (ie the variety of books/manuals)? Is the TS market considered that small that no one would be interested? |
Post by W!ZARD // May 20, 2007, 12:27am
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W!ZARD
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I think some users have to realize that learning complex software is several times more complicated than, oh say-making toast or using a toothbrush. It never will be that easy, so their expectations are wholly unrealistic.
It's not a matter of being all that clever or smart-it's a case of the user committing to the effort needed to learn tS a bit at a time.
This is so true I'm considering getting it carved on my gravestone!
We learn to walk by falling over a lot. We learn to make 3d cg content and/or art by crashing the program, failing to find the relevant icon and/or page in the manual and by otherwise 'falling over'. Under these circumstances it's very tempting to blame the manual and/or the software - but a good workman never blames his tools - instead he focuses on doing the best job he can with the tools he has and his current level of skill whilst continuously striving to learn more.
I'm an award winning cg artist - tS is my main tool, amongst others with equally as frustrating limitations. I operate on a very tight budget and so I don't even consider buying external books, videos, training lessons and so on. This has not stopped me from learning to do what I do well enough to find it highly rewarding. I have learned what I do by commiting to learn and by doing a little bit often. Small steps add up over time - no-one can run before they walk.
There are no such things as problems, only opportunities in black hats. The secret to happiness is wanting what you have not having what you want. Saying what is wrong with the software/manual/marketing etc is counterproductive - identifying areas of potential future development is far more productive.
The first habit of a highly effective person is to begin with the end in mind - decide what you want to acheive and start moving in that direction. If you want a manual that works, that is easy to follow, that is clear and effective then that is what your energies should be directed at. Focusing on that which does not work acheives nothing but further delay.
If you want a manual that offers workflow-based tutorials then decide what your desired outcome is and figure out a potential workflow (identify how you want to render it, if you are going to model the components yourself or import existing models and so on). Take what the existing manual has to offer, explore the software and use the forums here and at Renderosity and elsewhere. Keep focused on your outcome and you will be surprised at just how effective the existing manual is and at how little you actually require it.
The best way to learn is by experience and by repetition. Once you've learned what you need to learn, write your own workflow based manual. That way you can tailor it to your own exact requirements.
<Rant mode off> |
Post by W!ZARD // May 20, 2007, 12:43am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Why dosen't TrueSpace have 3rd party training/tutorial support (ie the variety of books/manuals)? Is the TS market considered that small that no one would be interested?
Someone offered to write and publish a tS6.6 book a while ago (check the old forum archives) but this was met with very little enthusiasm. The person involved consequently canned the idea due to a lack of interest.
Strictly speaking manuals are really only neccessary to tell you what a particular tool or icon does. When you buy a car you don't expect to receive driving lessons with it.
If you don't already know the fundamentals of driving you won't get much help from the cars owners manual. Ditto with software - any software. Learn the principles of 3d art - box modeling, point editing, animation, lighting and so on. Once you have learned those pinciples the manual becomes much more user friendly. |
Post by rrf // May 20, 2007, 5:34am
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W!Z,
On one hand, I agree - but I have to tell you, being not well versed in 3D and trying to learn the ins-and-outs of a fairly complicated software (such as TS) is exactly what put me 'off' of learning TS for so long. For me, having a comprehensive Manual that covers all the tools is a 'must have'. Although quite dated, I find myself going back to 'Truespace 3 for Dummies' just because it covers mostly every 'basic' thing and is much smaller (physically) than my home printed-out 6.6 Manual. I feel good learning material can cut DAYS off the 'trial and error' method.
rf |
Post by Johny // May 20, 2007, 5:39am
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1. tS7.5 User Guide
2. Step by step of making scene with tS7.5
3. Beginning trueSpace 7.5
4. Modeling, texture and lighting with tS7.5
5. Animation with tS7.5
6. Truespace 7.5 for Dummies
....etc
Ussually only no 1 that come with sofware release. others title are release later by 3th parties or by verdor it self. :D |
Post by W!ZARD // May 20, 2007, 7:28am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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W!Z,
On one hand, I agree - but I have to tell you, being not well versed in 3D and trying to learn the ins-and-outs of a fairly complicated software (such as TS) is exactly what put me 'off' of learning TS for so long. For me, having a comprehensive Manual that covers all the tools is a 'must have'. Although quite dated, I find myself going back to 'Truespace 3 for Dummies' just because it covers mostly every 'basic' thing and is much smaller (physically) than my home printed-out 6.6 Manual. I feel good learning material can cut DAYS off the 'trial and error' method.
rf
Yeah r - that's sort of my point. I learned the very basics of 3d by using a free prog called anim8or. This app breaks everything down into 4 seperate areas - modeling, textureing, animating and scene setting IIRC. Whenever I hit a term or idea that I didn't know I either googled it or enquired on a forum somewhere then figured it out for myself. For me thats half the fun - although to be fair I don't have much in the way of limits on my time. I'd probably fgeel a lot different if I was doing this for a job!
I should also fess up that the first few times I opened tS 3.2 I thought it was the stupidest most confusing thing I ever saw! Eventually I sat down and read the manual, cover to cover even though I understood very little. Then I started small and simple and step by step - yes it can get frustrating but with perserverance you get there. |
Post by bigbigblue // May 21, 2007, 6:27am
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When you buy a car you don't expect to receive driving lessons with it.
I agree, but you WOULD expect to receive a manual which accurately describes what all the switches and other controls do.
For example, I know that I need to turn the lights on when it gets dark, but I would refer to the manual to find out how to do it in that particular car.
At the moment with TS 7.5, I am sitting on the side of the road unable to drive because it's dark and I can't find out how to turn the lights on (metaphorically speaking). |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 21, 2007, 6:38am
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Total Posts: 4062
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I think what Wizard means is that if you see a part of the manual that is confusing, incorrect, or unclear, instead of saying "the manual sucks", post about the specific section and recommend possible changes so it can be improved or fixed. ;)
-Jack. |
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