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POSER "ART or POSING"
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
POSER "ART or POSING" // Rants and Raves
Post by nowherebrain // May 28, 2007, 12:03pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Posing-
I figured this was as good as any a subject. I for one cannot stand the poser crowd, as a generalization. The individual poser user may very well be using it as a tool to see proportions or fill a backdrop.
I don't buy the "I use the figures for a crowd." statement...talk about a slow render, anyone who models humanoids knows that you could create lower polygon versions of higher quality. |
Post by Garion // May 28, 2007, 12:40pm
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Garion
Total Posts: 116
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As stated in the other thread, Poser has its uses.
Sure a lot of people use it for nefarious reasons and others get a buzz or feeling of well being when they make a pretty picture with the built in content and show their friends what they have done.
I wonder how many people have used Photoshop to create.. erm.. nefarious pictures made up from... say the head of one person and the.. erm <censored> body of another :o
It could also be said that 'we' that is 'WE' who use computers to produce our .. pictures are not true artists either. :p
It could be argued that a true artist would find and grind his/her own pigments, construct their own brushes and create their own canvas. Then and only only then would they use their skills and talent to transfer the image in their mind, through their arm and hand to the brush on the canvas. (personaly I envy them as I am dire at painting).
The finished picture could then be scanned into a computer.
A bit extreme maybe.. but many of these true artists cannot stand the 'Computer Graphic Crowd' with their programs that do all the art for yoo ( I know this becuase I have met and spoken to many of these real artists) :)
Back to poser:
The crowed thing:
Create and pose yer characters in Poser, render out the image with a plain background and map the image to a plane object.
I have been doing this for years and it has saved me a fortune in time and money.
Poser is a tool and only a tool and if it saves me grief and money then I will continue to use it.
Suffering for your art is all well and good, but it does not pay the bills and elitism in any field does no one any favours.
So if you dont like it, dont do it.
It is okay to have an opinion about something, it is quite another to make sweeping generalisations about people you do not even know, will never ever meet and who have nothing to do with yoo.
So chill out and do what yoo like, how yoo like:cool:
Cheers
Garion |
Post by nowherebrain // May 28, 2007, 1:23pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Maybe I should have started differently, the idea was not to upset people or get into arguments..I suppose it is inevitable, but to let people gripe about or support poser. I do not wish to see a running list of "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" or, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you." Although I will digress and I wish to have this thread removed if/when people start getting offended. My intention was to rant. |
Post by Burnart // May 28, 2007, 1:28pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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99.99 % of what gets posted in public Poser galleries is depressing to look at because it is so uninteresting. Many people have access because its cheap and its easy to use and there are vast amounts of models available - these are the reasons for both its success and its being despised by so called "serious" 3d artists. The thing is, its a hobby for people - not unlike computer games for those who aren't into games!
I know a little old lady in her seventies who for various reasons is virtually housebound. She got a computer and the internet connected then discovered Poser, bought it, found online friends in the Poser community and has some fun. These days shes a C4D user who models her own interiors to put her Poser charcaters into! (What she does is a bit too cutsey for my taste but thats not really the point.)
Poser features : HDRI, GI, ambient occlusion, cloth simulation, hair (with wind and motion simulation and full collision interaction), morph targets etc. TrueSpace could be improved with some of this stuff - the new hair in tS7.5 is only half way there compared to what has been available in Poser for something like 5 years!
If you don't like it nowherebrain thats ok no-one is compelling you to however I reckon there's a lot of people in this forum that use it for all kinds of reasons but won't admit it - lets face it, admitting your a Poser user is a bit like admitting your gay - there's still a lot of predjudice out there. (Mum, Dad .. there's something I have to tell you ..... that box under my bed has Poser in it.) ;) |
Post by nowherebrain // May 28, 2007, 1:32pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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I asked Roman to remove these threads. I don't want to change the "feel" of the community. All of this has been recklessness on my behalf. I am chilled out by the way:D . |
Post by Garion // May 28, 2007, 1:59pm
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Garion
Total Posts: 116
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Heheh, Well I for one am not offended. :D
But its true what Burnart says: I have friend who was football daft (the real football, not that namby pamby game played in the Colonies :p ) <Garion Ducks>
He found out that he could no longer play and it really depressed him. Soooo I showed him Bryce and Daz Studio and he just looked at me with a blank look on his face ( he knew nor cared nowt about computer graphics) ;)
Thats all changed now though and he has found a new hobby, not only that but his boss saw some of his stuff and she asked him if he could do some extra paid graphics work, nothing fancy, just charts, fire drill diagrams etc.
I help him as much as I can and he is coming on leaps and bounds. He has downloaded TS 3.2 and is looking forward to 'getting into it' over the summer. The bonus he says is that it work on his works PC.. which ancient :D
Cheers
Garion |
Post by nowherebrain // May 28, 2007, 3:28pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Any relation to Bel-Garion? |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 28, 2007, 8:30pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I'm not offended and I think the discussion is interesting. Personally I think poser is a tool that could be very useful for certain situations.
I don't really understand why since the textures and meshes seem nice but for some reason (generalizing ;) ) models and artwork that come out pf poser seem to be visually flat and have no punch.
Then again Madmouse used poser meshes as starting points for parts of his devil mech and that's come out really nice, so in the end I think it really comes down to the artist putting his tools to good use towards producing good art.
Maybe if we bring in some of the Poser "posers" ;) to the TS community they'll grow in their skills, make good art, and help surge our ranks. So I wouldn't be against importing poser formats. For one thing it would be a big help to TS's architectural users. With the new animation tools they could then have people walking around their 3D visualizations.
-Jack. |
Post by Garion // May 29, 2007, 1:33am
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Garion
Total Posts: 116
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Any relation to Bel-Garion?
Nah! I was called Garion long before that cheeky little upstart was more than a twinkle in his dads eye.. Rivan King, Overlord of the West.. indeed :D
I was first called Garion in or around 1964 by my Grandad :)
Cheers
Garion |
Post by RichLevy // May 29, 2007, 2:27am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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something to ponder, I am not trying to provoke contrivercy, just add another point of view, I do not hate Poser and what it can do, my feelings towards it is that it decreases the time and effort I put into bettering what I like to do. I have heard many times around here that it is quicker and easier to take a Poser/MakeHuman model and alter it... than those same people will say they took a Poser/MakeHuman model and dramatically altered it and put it into a scene they made... now which is it? Does using a Poser/MakeHuman character make modeling faster? Or do you use it as a very basic edgeflow mesh and you are altering it extensively for your characters?
it is a funny contradiction, I love to model, I work hard at becoming a better character modeler, I study other people's models, I dissect other work to see how they solve particular problems, I read and watch tutorials all of the time to see what other modeler's are doing. I put bones in my characters to test how geometry effects the deformation of certain parts... Here is Poser, it creates all of the hard part... sure I can go in and alter the mesh in other programs, does that still make me a character modeler? I am taking someone else's work and altering minor things in it, no matter how much I want to think I am dramatically altering it, it is someone else's work I am basing my cosmetic changes too. Because I say I took a character/model from someone else's work and alter it... does that make it mine? That is how I see Poser, sure it is a tool, and you can do some great things with it, and I am sure it provides 1000's of people a great outlet to create and do things that they do not have the tools to do on their own... Does that make it right? does that justify it? Does that make it an artist's tool?
I see how particular some people here are towards the way they set up their scenes, how they place lights, the types of lights, the materials textures... what if their were a tool that took all of the testing, the countless hours of setting up and trial and error out of every scene... press this button after setting up your basic scene and the render comes out magically the way you want... an automatic "Monthly Contest Winner"... collect your prize than spend another 3 hours setting up your next scene...
Rich |
Post by parva // May 29, 2007, 3:08am
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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In a time where clients wants work done yesterday you are thankfully for every step which saves valuable time. Finally it's the result which counts.
my 2 cent.
I remember a user (don't know his name) at cgtalk who made great images but as soon as it was known that he used Poser for his models (even if he modified it massivly) he became a... well, I say "bastard". :rolleyes: such a bullshit! |
Post by RichLevy // May 29, 2007, 5:08am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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My point of view is as a hobbest... if I were a professional and as you say, time is money, I would also look to use as much stock models and footage as I can find. I completely appreciate and understand that point of view.
CGTalk is a place I have seen Poser work shot down pretty hard several times. I can understand it in a way there, though I do not always agree with it. If you are posting in the modeling areas, you would think that the model you are representing is completely your own and represents what you can do as a professional. There are no time deadlines, it is personal work that you might be adding to your portfolio or showing industry people (which CGTalk is loaded with :) ) what you are capable of doing...
Further Point to Consider:
I tend to wonder about the double standard I see though... what about PhotoShop? Vue? Photographs as textures? I can make a very real looking scene in TS 7.5 that is almost all completely photographs on 2D planes, unless you move up close to the objects you would not know that it is remotely even CG... Yet post that as a WIP or a complete work and eyes would roll...
What about programs like Vue? It has the ability to create a very natural environment complete with real looking terrain, trees that move in the direction of the wind (that you determine) grass, flowers, rocks and water... volumetric clouds that move, can be rendered as HDR's, god rays, moonlight... in no time at all you can create a very real environment and use that as part of a CG scene. Is that really 3D? Is that any different than Poser? PhotoShop was used to great advantage by an artist here, he made use of TS and PS to make some great looking pictures, yet his work was generally not excepted around here, is that any different than Poser?
As I said I do not love Poser, it kinda cheapens the effort I put into my models but I understand and except it for what it is.... an important part of CG and 3D... What about Photography? About Vue/Terragen? Photoshop? You can't say one is good but the rest are not... |
Post by Délé // May 29, 2007, 12:31pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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This guy says it's all relative.
6478 |
Post by RichLevy // May 29, 2007, 1:19pm
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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This guy says it's all relative.
6478
He's just another hack postal worker :D
Rich
(that was sarcasm ) |
Post by Burnart // May 29, 2007, 1:44pm
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Burnart
Total Posts: 839
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Did you know that Poser was originally created to display "posable" (hence the name) mannequin style simple human figures as a reference for traditional illustration? (ie. painting and drawing!) It was designed to be simple and easy to use because traditional artists where assumed not to be technically savvy. Obviously it has evolved into something beyond that. Like I said previously it is a game for non gamers. Strangely enough it is also a powerful tool.
l do actually agree with all Rich says and acknowledge the inconsistencies in attitudes towards Poser (its OK to use Poser as long as you don't tell us your using it.) How much of a "3D purist" do we want to be? There was a time (late 70s to the late 80s when home computers first got going) when you were a wussy for buying a render program - you were expected to write your own! Me I didn't get my first computer until there was a 24 bit graphics card and a bunch of software to use it.
My personal opinion is I hate the supposedly realistic people in Poser - they are anything but realisitic! ..... but its still a powerful tool. |
Post by nowherebrain // May 29, 2007, 4:39pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Nah! I was called Garion long before that cheeky little upstart was more than a twinkle in his dads eye.. Rivan King, Overlord of the West.. indeed :D
I was first called Garion in or around 1964 by my Grandad :)
Cheers
Garion
...The will and the word...at least we're on the same page, I took a stab in the dark on that one....great series. |
Post by nowherebrain // May 29, 2007, 4:40pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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He's just another hack postal worker :D
Rich
(that was sarcasm )
I thought he was a patent clerk??? |
Post by nowherebrain // May 29, 2007, 4:42pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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In a time where clients wants work done yesterday you are thankfully for every step which saves valuable time. Finally it's the result which counts.
my 2 cent.
I remember a user (don't know his name) at cgtalk who made great images but as soon as it was known that he used Poser for his models (even if he modified it massivly) he became a... well, I say "bastard". :rolleyes: such a bullshit!
I think he designed your avatar from "victoria" didn't he???;) |
Post by parva // May 29, 2007, 11:58pm
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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Vic-who? :D
I just know that he is a (or was, don't visit cgtalk since a long time anymore) Lightwave user. |
Post by RichLevy // May 30, 2007, 12:07am
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RichLevy
Total Posts: 1140
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I thought he was a patent clerk???
My bad, so he was... boy all those good jokes are now going to go to waste :D
Rich |
Post by Naes3d // May 30, 2007, 8:25am
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Naes3d
Total Posts: 0
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Did you know that Poser was originally created to display "posable" (hence the name) mannequin style simple human figures as a reference for traditional illustration? (ie. painting and drawing!)
That was my original reason for buying Poser (back at version 2). I had just stopped taking my figure drawing class and thought Poser would be my 'poor man's substitute'. To make a long story short, the idea that it would be cool to model my own 3D human is what eventually led me deeper into 3D as a medium. |
Post by Heidi // Jun 1, 2007, 5:49am
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Heidi
Total Posts: 335
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Ok.. if it's time for true confessions... I use Poser.... I've alpha and beta tested some of their products. I'm also admin on two family-style forums for 3D beginners.
I whole-heartedly agree that some of the 'art' you see coming out of Bryce, Vue, Poser, etc. can be very boring and it seems that every beginning user has to go through the reflective sphere and nude period (it takes some time for them to learn that bending a joint isn't the same as posing).
BUT... those programs are also, in many ways the lifeblood of 3D. They're the first introduction to 3D for many people. They spark an interest and fuel imagination. And, like me, a number of their users move on to learn how to create their own models.
Does Poser have a place in what we do with TrueSpace? Sure, why not... I don't create all my shaders from scratch. What's the difference between using a Poser model or Make Human? If I need a human figure that's beyond my modelling abilities to complete a scene, I'll use Poser (I'll also note in my comments that the figure is from Poser).
There is so much to learn in 3D that it can be overwhelming, especially for a beginner, or for someone on a deadline. I don't make judgement or attach any stigma for using the tools at our disposal.
Anyway... that's my rant and I'm sticking to it :) |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 10, 2007, 3:05am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Some interesting points of view here.
Here's mine FWIW. I sometimes think that the 'art' part of CG Art gets overlooked. I consider myself an artist, and I make art with a whole range of tools from my guitar and keyboard for music to pens, crayons, watercolours, acrylics, trueSpace, the GIMP, my SLR camera, terragen, MojoWorld, Vue, stones, bits of copper wire, my digital camera, old furniture, plants in my garden, driftwood, beads, shells...... well you get the point.
Poser is a tool - actually not one I use, I prefer Makehuman - just like a pencil or a hammer.
I sometimes wish for a Computer Art discussion forum where discussion is about the art not the tool used to create it. On this hypothetical forum mentioning what software you used to make your image would be banned!:D
Personally I find that many Poser artists seem to lack an understanding of the importance of light and many poser images seem to have poor shadows in them - that is the only complaint I would make about Poser, but then I'm a pretty easygoing guy.
Modern human cultures derive from older tribal cultures - tribalism is inbred into our genetic make-up which tends to promote a lot of we're right, they are wrong, type thinking - it's the old star bellied sneetches all over again. Poser Sneetches get slagged because they don't have stars on their bellies. For me it all misses the point that everyone is doing the best they can with the tools they have available and their current skillset and knowledge base - everyone is trying to produce the best art they can with what they have available - ancient cave art shows that this is what people have always done.
When we see a beautiful woodcarving do we really care what make of chisel was used? |
Post by spacekdet // Jun 10, 2007, 4:04am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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When we see a beautiful woodcarving do we really care what make of chisel was used?
Only if you happen to be in the chisel-making business. |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 16, 2007, 11:01pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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You got some kinda problem with chisel makers?:mad: |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 16, 2007, 11:32pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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You got some kinda problem with chisel makers?:mad:
Only the one's who are sharp operaters!:p |
Post by nowherebrain // Jun 17, 2007, 1:57pm
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nowherebrain
Total Posts: 1062
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Or when they dance like dyslexic breakers. |
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