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Need honest advice from tS 7.x users
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Need honest advice from tS 7.x users // Rants and Raves
Post by 3dpdk // Sep 21, 2007, 10:26am
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Hay everyone!
I'm back on dry land for a while - probably for longer than I care to be - but I'll have more time to work on my animation. Work has slowed considerably in the Gulf oil fields. Most of the "reconstruction" that was supposed to take five to six years was done in two (although you wouldn't know it by the prices at the gas pumps!!!) and not a lot of maintenance work is scheduled for this time of year for obvious reasons.
I see new names and faces and maybe I'll get the chance to get to know y'all.
I have a very important question for all the tS 7.x users, but especially to those of you that upgraded from 6.6. (Newbee coments welcome also:) )
______________________________
Seems that my recent work with the facial animator in 6.6, although there's much more to learn and practice, has received some recognition (:banana: pardon my vanity) and I find myself on the horns of a happy dilemma. I'm faced with a choice of one of several "bonuses". An upgrade to tS 7.5 is one, aniPak is another, and several others I don't understand (so I don't guess they really pertain to me). iSpace is a choice but I'm really more interested in animation than still images and illustrations.
Now it seems there's a lot of discussion by tS 7.x users about program instability and that scares me a little. 6.6 has it's quirks but remains fairly stable on my system. Much better than earlier tS versions, but it sounds as though upgrading to 7.5 might be back tracking on the stability issue.
Rendering is another question. My goal in most of my work is a finished render, whether still or animation. I don't really care about "real time" rendering accuracy.
I currently use an nVidia GeForce4 MX 4000 graphics board that doesn't support all the rendering features in truePlay (ie "bloom, super sampling (I don't even know what that is) and transparency in truePlay environments doesn't work) and I'm assuming it will also fall short in tS7.5 real time rendering unless I upgrade my graphics board.From what I gather, an upgrade to tS7.x means one MUST purchase VRay in order to produce final renders.... and there seems to be a problem with rendering animations in avi format; yes?
From the product page of tS 7.5, animation, rigging and skinning have been much improved from 6.6. It looks to me that Caligari has adapted some of the features of Motion Studio and kept the best features of tS's resident bones.
Is this true?This is one of my main attractions to an upgrade to tS 7.5 but NOT if I can't render the animation after breezing through character rigging.I'm wondering if I should stick with 6.6 and request the aniPak instead.If I could get some feedback, some honest critical evaluations, pros AND cons (if you will) it may help me to make a final decision.
Thanks all!
Paul |
Post by frootee // Sep 21, 2007, 10:59am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Hi 3dpdk. Congratz on your winning! You've earned it!
Now, on to business:
Check this link for info on a rendering interface (not a render engine, this is an interface to a couple render engines; some are high quality and free):
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=4032
You don't have to buy VRay in order to gen final renders. You can switch to model view and render using lightworks and virtuaout/virtualight from there.
I am not sure what kind of mileage you'll get on your current video card. Check the hardware requirements for 7.51. The Model side of 7.51 IS version 6.6. It is there as part of the upgrade path. There are no booleans on the Workspace side currently, for example.
I upgraded from 6.6 to 7.1, then to 7.5 and 7.51 (both free upgrades).
The Workspace (7.51 side) animation/IK/skinning tools are superior compared to the bones in 6.6 (Model Side). Of course, MoStu is free now. Since this is the first release (7.51) with the new IK tools, there are bugs to be worked out. But the results are VERY cool. With 7.6 on the horizon, there is word in the Captains Blog about vertex animation. Jack Edwards has morph target script which allows you to create up to 8 meshes, attach them, and morph the combo into a final mesh.
Regarding rendering animations in AVI format, not sure about that; however, I have gotten away from rendering a whole avi, and rendering stills anyways, then building an AVI / WMV afterwards.
You should also consider the other hardware requirements: CPU / memory, disk space.
Should you choose this route, it may also be worth investigating waiting til 7.6 is released, to fix the bugs in 7.51 (there's always bugs in any app!), along with additional functionality.
For samples of character animations, check the July 07 and August 07 animation galleries. Rigging is easier; however, on occasion the bones get messed up. But, we still see high quality animations. In my walk cycle you will notice that the left hip has a slight bounce. When I rotated the view I noticed it was popping up but I just needed to make a minor correctional adjustment.
The problem with using 6.6. and aniPak is there is no upgrade path. 7.51 technology is brand new, not similar to 6.6 technology which outgrew itself. With 7.51 things can only get better. AND if you care to get into the link editor and scripting you can make procedural animation. Several folks here are working on that at the moment. The morph script by Jack Edwards was done in scripting, and it's available for free.
I would say upgrade to 7.51 if your system can support it. Also I would suggest contacting tech support for their input, based on your current system and planned system upgrade path.
HTH!
Froo |
Post by jayr // Sep 21, 2007, 11:07am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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I'd upgrade.
i've found 7.51 a much better program, the ability to refine your UI set your own short cuts is a real bonus.
Upgrading now will cut the price of the upgrade to 7.6 as well i imagine. |
Post by splinters // Sep 21, 2007, 12:11pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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In my opinion tS7.5 is a much improved interface with a few welcome new features.
Then again, I am a bit biased...;)
As for graphics cards. a better model would not cost much at all and would improve the working experience as well as allowing you to explore the workspace and trueplay. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Sep 21, 2007, 1:31pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Great post by Frootee! :) (And thanks for all those plugs! ;) )
I've been using 7.5+ since it was release to proTeam during beta testing and haven't looked back. It's WAY more stable than 6.6 ever was for me, but I think a lot of my experience with that is that I don't use Model side (6.6) unless I have too. Which is limited to just a few things like Axis manipulation and changing lights parameters (since the bridge is one-way for those).
Only other stability issue I have is with encapsulation and SDS not playing nice together and screwing up DX...but that can be avoided by not grouping SDS objects.
I would prefer a more channel based material editor, like what Kerkythea offers, so I'm planning to make one and an exporter for Kerkythea while I'm at it. It's going to be a month before I can get going again on that, but once it's done, that'll be another alternative to VRay. It'll be 7.6 Workspace only though since its being done with scripting and when the SDK comes out, I'll probably switch over to the SDK.
Being on the beta tester team I can say that there's a lot of cool stuff going on and that I'm excited about what 7.6 has to offer.
So my advice would be to either get 7.5 so that your upgrade to 7.6 is cheaper, or hold out for 7.6. ;) |
Post by 3dpdk // Sep 21, 2007, 5:30pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Thanks for the replies so far!
Frootee:
Very good information that induced me to search the products pages further.
I think the advice on requesting aniPak is valid; no sense in working myself into a dead end corner. The way I interpret the product pages, most of these plugins were developed pre-6.x and tS 7.x has similar, improved resident functions as most of the aniPak plugs.
As far as system requirements:
Pentium 4 AMD Athlon
2.8 Ghz
2 Gig system memory
50% free space on an 84 gbt internal hard drive and 90% free 248 gbt external hard drive
The nVidia GeForce 4 is the only weak link. It is bare minimum with 128 Mbt on board memory and I don't think it supports the "full pixel shader 2.0" That's where the problem with real time post rendering effects comes in.
Splinters;
As I said, the real time render and truePlay visual experience are not high on my priority list. It's on the list, just not at the top. Eventually I'll upgrade my graphics but for now it does meet the minimum requirements for 7.5
I think I understand now that VRay is the render engine used on the workspace side and is purchased software, but the model side of 7.x is actually 6.6 and uses Lightworks as a resident rendering engine. I read all 10 pages of the thread you linked to Froo and as I understand, what SiW has written is a plug in that acts as a more intuative pilot to other render engines such as 3Delight that will ease the work flow on either side of the bridge.
I've never used external renderers. I've always felt one of trueSpace's really strong points over other 3D authoring software was it's rendering capabilities and how easy it has been to set up a decent render. I'm a little disappointed that they seem to have abandoned this part of their ongoing development.
I have on occasion, built an animation from sequenced bit map renders using an old copy of Jasic's Animation workshop. The animations I'm producing now are measured in Giga bytes as avi files and as separate frame images or cells would probably overload my external hard drive and most definitely would be too big for Animation Workshop to load and convert.
What other software (priced for a hobbyist) is there that can perform this task?
And here's another question; can an animation be set up in tS 7.x and be saved as a 6.6 scene file ( .scn files as opposed to ... what is it ... .rar files?) for final rendering. (or is that just a ridiculous notion and totally unnecessary?)
As far as waiting for 7.6 to avoid bugs; In my experience with most software, usually bug swatting software upgrades bring in new bugs and bug swatting is usually an on going process so I don't think waiting for 7.6 would offer any advantage.
... besides, if animation and character rigging is easier in 7.5, this may simplify my current project. My current "script" calls for two main characters and three minor, all fully rigged; only one of which is currently fully rigged with Motion Studio bones. (I'll be posting some WIP images soon)
I intend to follow some good advice given to me a while ago from a tS buddy and download the trial version, but I doubt I will be able to discover the answers to all my questions in two days.
I also plan to wait through the weekend before contacting Caligari on my dicision so any more input from anyone else will be most welcome, indeed! |
Post by Jack Edwards // Sep 21, 2007, 6:15pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I recommend and use this software for AVI encoding:
http://www.virtualdub.org/
Can't beat the price.... free ;)
You'll also want to get these codecs:
http://www.xvid.org/Downloads.15.0.html
http://x264.nl/ (get ffdshow for using with virtualdub)
If you want something a little more professional then I recommend Sony Vegas Pro:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/vegasfamily.asp
VRay is a superior render engine and can be used from both Model and Workspace sides. I just wish that it was more completely implemented in TrueSpace and didn't have the transmissive/shadows bug. If those issues are addressed VRay would become the obvious choice for render engine with trueSpace. |
Post by Délé // Sep 21, 2007, 6:55pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Hey Paul, good to see you. :)
I upgraded from 6.6 up through 7.51 as well. Here are some of the pros and cons as I see them.
Pros:
1. Better realtime feedback. You don't have to render constantly to see what your scene will look like.
2. HDRI for lightworks render engine. HDRI can produce excellent lighting and is fast to set up and fairly quick to render.
3. Better character tools. The new bones are pretty good. IK handles are great. I still have trouble with skinning, but overall I think the bones are much improved.
4. Better Animation Editor. Blending clips and combining motion capture, scripted animation, and physics is very powerful.
5. Open architecture. The Link Editor really opens up the program to many possibilities. You could script behaviors and procedural animations for objects.
6. Some of the new modeling tools on the workspace side are fantastic. I can't imagine not using the dynamic sweep tool now. Very fast.
7. As Frootee mentioned, upgrading is a step forward. The tools will only get better as time goes on. 6.6 is a good program, but it's time is closing and it will eventually become obsolete.
Cons:
1. This is an entirely new architecture in a transition phase. You will have to relearn how to use the program if you want to take advantage of the new tools. It WILL take some time. Especially seeing as you have to navigate two architectures.
2. The split architecture can cause additional bugs and problems. It can be a bit of a hassle switching between the two architectures to accomplish certain tasks.
3. Some of the new tools don't yet work as good as they should. I find that the loop selections don't work in a lot of situations for me. I also always use the model side axis tools as they work better then the new ones right now.
All in all I personally would say that 7.51 is definitely worth the upgrade. If you hadn't noticed, I absolutely LOVE the scripting abilities. Lots of power to tap into there. I know that you're not into the real-time view as much, but trust me, being able to see your textures as you model and apply them is very nice. The new DX9 view eliminates that tearing bug when you get close to a model too.
Also keep in mind that the new workspace side uses ONLY directX9.0c. I HIGHLY recommend making absolutely sure that your video card will FULLY support directX 9.0c. If it doesn't the workspace side may not render well, or possibly not at all, and that would make all the new tools useless as you wouldn't be able to see what you're doing.
It's a good program that is growing and heading in the right direction IMO. Still in that growing phase though. It's probably best to think of 7.51 as a whole new program. I think a lot of people that upgrade think it will be very similar to 6.6. However there are many changes. The good thing is that you can always fall back on the 6.6 view if you find the new stuff overwhelming. Although it would be wise to learn the new architecture as that is the future.
And here's another question; can an animation be set up in tS 7.x and be saved as a 6.6 scene file ( .scn files as opposed to ... what is it ... .rar files?) for final rendering. (or is that just a ridiculous notion and totally unnecessary?)
No. The new animation system and the old one don't really work together much, if at all. If you use the new tools, you will want to save it as the new .rsscn. You can turn on the bridge though and render the animation created in the new workspace side with Lightworks on the old model side.
Also don't expect to transfer your old animations into the new architecture. You can still load them into the old architecture but there is no synchronization between the old and new animation systems. They are too different. You might be able to rekey some non-character animations by hand with the bridge on though. |
Post by mrbones // Sep 21, 2007, 10:24pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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http://home.hccnet.nl/s.vd.palen/index.html
Photolapse is a Gem of a frame assembler.
Check it out, its free too.
Cheers |
Post by Steinie // Sep 22, 2007, 9:06am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Off topic for one second...Dele
"dynamic sweep tool"
Same as sweep or normal sweep?
Another consideration for upgrade is this, With TS 6.6 your at the end with no more development. With 7 your at the beginning of a new world with many new tools ahead. Do you want to look forward or back?
I really like TS 7.5 a lot. If they start improving the stuff that is already there I would even be happier. Improvements with Lights, UV Mapping and Texturing, Bending or Path tools and Obj import/export, point edit navigation all need to be there in 7.6 in my humble (cough) opinion. To me Model side does not exist, it's old,it's buggy it's on life support.
Would I do it again after playing with TS 7-7.1 7.5- and 7.51?...you bet! |
Post by frootee // Sep 22, 2007, 10:07am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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with regard to 6.6. files, you can load them on the model side, then switch to the Workspace side, and save as RsScn. |
Post by Délé // Sep 22, 2007, 12:52pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Same as sweep or normal sweep?
Ah yes, sorry. I meant normal sweep. |
Post by 3dvisuals dude // Sep 22, 2007, 2:25pm
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3dvisuals dude
Total Posts: 1703
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Hi 3dpk,
First off congrats on your animation!
Second off, welcome back!
These guys already said it all I think and much better than I could have too.
The only thing I would add is that I have trueSpace7.51 and trueSpace6.6 both on the same drive and both working as well as can be expected (given my ancient hardware). When I want to model I prefer to use the TS7.51 Workspace when possible and when my knowledge of the toolsets there is sufficient to not hinder my worlkflow, but when I'm in a rush or want that 6.6 environment I prefer to get it right from 6.6 rather than by crossing the bridge so to speak.
I only really use the "Modelside" (6.6 Plugin) of TS7.51 to import models and scenes or to export "archive" files which inherently include all Vray settings and are accompanied by all textures utilized within a model or scene saved that way. Apart from that, I prefer to ignore the Modelside and have gotten to the point where as soon as the import and export features I need are on Workspace side I will kill the bridge forever.
I know none of this really addresses your specific concerns directly, but they appear to me to have already been addressed very well here. Perhaps this will also help in some way.
- Mark / 3dvisuals dude |
Post by 3dpdk // Sep 22, 2007, 7:48pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Thanks everyone for being very responsive to my request for help. I also greatly appriciate the back patting over my talking head video!
Well ... I've spent one of two days tinkering, loading old 6.6 scenes, test rendering, evaluating and bench testing, trial animations, etc.
Has anyone noticed that complex geometry and high poly counts in a scene will slow the workspace side down to that of a dead snail? I've tried "optimizing" as much as I can, using the lowest resolution texture setting, turning off procedural textures and bump mapping in the display options, no post render effects, etc, but it still took a full 12 minutes to make one move of my view point in a very complex scene. (the same movement in old 6.6 with combined solid render and wireframe turned on in the same scene takes about 3 seconds)
Remember when they first opened the WIP gallery in truePlay, how navigation bogged down to almost unmanageable and everyone was screaming and hollering that the only way out was to exit truePlay and start over? Well....
LightWorks on the 6.6 side seems to do a fairly good job of screen renders but a bench test using my scene for the speed challenge #8 (brush) which has a clear glass and a bathroom set reflected in a mirror;
render settings:
quality = high
antialising = adaptive
Raytrace shadows (no mapped shadows)
Old 6.6 render time = 2min 15 seconds
LightWorks render time = 9min 53sec
VirtuaLight render time = 3 min to evaluate the scene and decide it didn't want to render it because there were just too many faces to draw ... huuuu?????!
I didn't bother to test to see how many faces it takes to make VirtuaLight crap-out (so-to-speek). It's pretty useless as far as I can tell. It only seems to be able to render selected items and that's with antialising disabled with no obvious way to enable it and only if the object has a low poly count.
The new "boning" and "skinning" tools only work on the workspace side and don't translate across the bridge. Quite frankly the only advantage the new bones have over Motion Studio bones is that they have movement limits. This might be worth it if the slowness of the workspace side didn't make using these new tools so tedious! (move the mouse and 10 seconds later tS7.5 actually performs the task) As far as I can tell the facial animator is not available on the workspace side but any animation created with it on the model side (or 6.6 side) wont cross the bridge to be combined with animation created on the workspace side.
What am I missing here folks? I turned off absolutely every service in Windows XP that aren't absolutely essential to run trueSpace but with no improvement. I posted my system specs earlier and obviously surpass all the requirements, except for the graphics board which does meet the minimum requirements.
Is there any advice on how to further optimize the display on the workspace side?
Keep in mind here folks, I'm a tS loyalist. I'm not "ranting". These are my observations from using the trial version of trueSpace 7.5 on a system that by the published requirements should not be having any trouble with the software but so far am lead to believe that the "old" version works better than the new!
So far the way I see it, I wouldn't have been able to create the animation using tS7.5 that is giving me the opportunity to receive the software!
Paul
by-the-way; tS7.5 crashed twice in the first 30 minutes of experimenting. It seemed to have something to do with SDS but I'm not sure what I did. I think I tried to delete an object with one level of SDS still active but I'm not sure now. I wasn't hunting for bugs! |
Post by Jack Edwards // Sep 22, 2007, 8:36pm
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Jack Edwards
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Video card strongly affects 7.5's speed since it's realtime DX9. So that would be my first guess.
Second guess is that workspace doesn't handle multi-layered groups well. So other than your video card limitations, it's likely the object hierarchies that are causing the huge slowdown in Workspace side.
Third would be the bridge. If you're dealing with that complex a scene, once you've got your scene loaded, probably best to turn it off...
Sounds like it's not going to work for you with current hardware though :( |
Post by Délé // Sep 23, 2007, 5:43am
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Like Jack mentioned, it may be the graphics card or the bridge. My first guess would be the bridge. I personally only have it on when I need to transfer the scene back and forth. Otherwise I always have it off. Turning it off makes both the workspace and model side work much faster as it doesn't have to constantly send data back and forth.
The workspace should be much more responsive then what it sounds like you are experiencing. If turning the bridge off doesn't help, it may be your machine. I'm really betting it's the bridge though. To turn the bridge off, just select the settings tab at the top of the stack, then the bridge settings are in the desktop panel.
8586
As for the bones, they also work with physics and you can blend clips together in the new Animation Editor. The IK handles are quite powerful too IMO. You can even procedurally animate bones. I've been playing with creating a parametric walk script that people can just plug into their characters to create quick walk cycles. That may be a while before I get it working good though. There is also the limb library that allows you to save parts of rigs like hands, feet, tails, and quickly assemble them with drag and drop. So there is quite a bit more to the bones then first meets the eye. I'm not sure you can get a thorough evaluation of 7.51 in a couple of days. It takes a while to fully explore the power and potential of the new system.
P.S. I just watched your video. Excellent work Paul. :) |
Post by TylerZambori // Sep 23, 2007, 12:40pm
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TylerZambori
Total Posts: 100
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Like Jack mentioned, it may be the graphics card or the bridge. My first guess would be the bridge. I personally only have it on when I need to transfer the scene back and forth. Otherwise I always have it off. Turning it off makes both the workspace and model side work much faster as it doesn't have to constantly send data back and forth.
The workspace should be much more responsive then what it sounds like you are experiencing. If turning the bridge off doesn't help, it may be your machine. I'm really betting it's the bridge though. To turn the bridge off, just select the settings tab at the top of the stack, then the bridge settings are in the desktop panel.
8586
As for the bones, they also work with physics and you can blend clips together in the new Animation Editor. The IK handles are quite powerful too IMO. You can even procedurally animate bones. I've been playing with creating a parametric walk script that people can just plug into their characters to create quick walk cycles. That may be a while before I get it working good though. There is also the limb library that allows you to save parts of rigs like hands, feet, tails, and quickly assemble them with drag and drop. So there is quite a bit more to the bones then first meets the eye. I'm not sure you can get a thorough evaluation of 7.51 in a couple of days. It takes a while to fully explore the power and potential of the new system.
P.S. I just watched your video. Excellent work Paul. :) Once she started talking she didn't stop eh, lol. Just like a real woman. Next thing you know she's going to want to talk about "feelings". :rolleyes: lol
Excuse me, please don't express chauvinism on this forum. I went through
this on a computer forum called "tech power up," and would rather not have to encounter it here.
In the end, I found it more effective to just go to the moderators there about
it because the "guys" didn't even understand why the video clip of chuck norris punching a woman, used as an avatar, was offensive, But they understood all right when a male with superiority over them deleted it all.
So in future I will just go to a moderator, but guys, please don't be like that.
Thank you. |
Post by Délé // Sep 23, 2007, 1:04pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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I apologize if that's the way it came across. It was merely a light hearted attempt at humor. I'm not a chauvinist and certainly meant no real disrespect to women.
However if it offends you that much I'll delete it. |
Post by TylerZambori // Sep 23, 2007, 1:14pm
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TylerZambori
Total Posts: 100
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I apologize if that's the way it came across. It was merely a light hearted attempt at humor. I'm not a chauvinist and certainly meant no real disrespect to women.
However if it offends you that much I'll delete it.
It;'s ok, don't delete it, I'd just appreciate if you wouldn't do it in the
future.
FYI, what you think isn't my business, I'd rather just not encounter it
here, where I hope to spend some time.
Thanks very much,
Tyler |
Post by Jack Edwards // Sep 23, 2007, 1:44pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Wow Tyler that's pretty harsh. I saw Dele's comment for what it was, agreeing (in humorous exageration) with the humor in 3dpk's animation.
Last thing I want to see on this forum is the political correctness police coming in to stifle (censor) art, artistic expression, and discussion of the concepts and thoughts provoked by a particular art piece.
Lighten up a bit and be a bit more open minded to satire and sarcastic humor. ;)
Besides I'm sure some woman in Dele's life upon reading the post will likely go on and on about how he shouldn't generalize women like that and how it's rude and uncaring and doesn't take into account how they might feel about it........................... :p LOL |
Post by RichLevy // Sep 23, 2007, 2:56pm
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RichLevy
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For what it is worth Tyler, of the 800 + posts Dele has posted, that is probably the closest he has ever come to being edgy... This is not a forum where people get out of control, and when they do "we" as a group handle it. You will find the moderators here flexible and willing to let us all voice our opinion. We have many talented ladies here as well as your standard issue of guys...
Enjoy yourself and learn, ask questions, post WIPs, gossip, socialize... just relax and have a grand ole time. The people that have posted in this thread are some of the nicest people you are going to find on the net... (except for me, I am just plain mean and nasty :D)
Rich |
Post by 3dpdk // Sep 23, 2007, 4:13pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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First let me say this about that!
The "side point" of the animation was; much like Dr Frankenstine who's innocent attempt to bring inanimate material to life was his undoing when the creature he brought to life turned out to have a mind and will of it's/his own. I thought it somewhat humorous if the character in the animation suddenly developed a will of her own and started demanding things concerning her comfort. Had it been a male character, he would have wanted his ration of beer, control of the TV remote and want to know why he couldn't walk around in his boxers.
Gender based humor can be funny because it IS based on the stereotypical exaggerations of that gender whether male or female, and most people understand that they are exaggerations. (except for the TV remote thing!)
Cross gender violence is another matter however and I don't blame you for being offended by that. It would make me angry at it's author.
You'll find everyone here to be adult, professional, and very helpful and respectful of fellow artists regardless of gender or age. Welcome to the tS forum.
__________________________________________________ ________
Now, after much deliberation over some very persuasive arguments I think I'm going to opt for the animation plug in pack and here's why:
In spite of following Délé's advice (turning off the bridge) my graphics card, though meets the minimum requirement seems to be the culprit in slowing down the workspace side of tS 7.5. Eventually I will upgrade my graphics board but not at the moment.
There's still the question that any facial animator sequences cannot be combined with 7.5 animations and my current project(s) require it.
I have spent a lot of time creating a catalog of motions for both main characters in my musical short using Motion Studio bones. Attempting to redo that in 7.5 means backtracking. Several of the plugs in the aniPak may actually make this task easier.
Lastly the old 6.6 resident render engine does an excellent job and converting to 7.5 would mean another major purchase for Vray. I just don't want the expense for now.
Even though this decision means I'll have to pay for a tS upgrade later I think it's the best way for me to go for now.
Thanks everyone for your input and help.
Paul |
Post by roman // Sep 23, 2007, 7:22pm
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roman
Total Posts: 320
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The nVidia GeForce 4 is the only weak link. It is bare minimum with 128 Mbt on board memory and I don't think it supports the "full pixel shader 2.0" That's where the problem with real time post rendering effects comes in.Are you sure you have GeForce4? This card is ancient (4 generations behind), I do not even think it has 128MB of VRAM. You could spend $50 and leap 2 generations forward. |
Post by splinters // Sep 23, 2007, 9:25pm
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splinters
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There were decent Geforce cards like the Ti series, so maybe he does have a 'decent' geforce 4 card for the time. But yes, I agree it is fairly ancient for 3D stuff...:o
# GeForce 4 Ti4600 - NV25 300 MHz core, 128 MBytes 325(650) MHz 128-bit DDR memory.
# GeForce 4 Ti4400 - NV25 275 MHz core, 128 MBytes 275(550) MHz 128-bit DDR memory. |
Post by 3dpdk // Sep 23, 2007, 9:33pm
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Roman;
That might make sense. This was a floor display system I bought last year and it had been on display for almost the previous year. The shop owner (small electronics shop in south Louisiana) installed the nVidia board to show it's DVD capabilities. I've always known the 4000 was a low end board but didn't realize it was that far behind.
The second DirectX diag screen shows the original Dell system graphics board.
I've never used the Intel graphics controller. Question is, is it any better than the nVidia?
The other thing I didn't think about is the screen resolution. My display is an Acer HD wide screen LCD flat screen and 1280 x 768 gives the best image, but a lower resolution might speed things up a bit.
Now here's a mystery! DirectX diagnostics says the nVidia has 128 M of memory and the intel has 96M - but the system info utility says it's the other way around ... ???????????????? Actually there's something really screwey about the system info listing and it looks like everything is mixed up!
I never thought about it but this is not a two display system (although I could run it that way). Should I disable one of the boards?
8593
8594
8595 |
Post by Jack Edwards // Sep 23, 2007, 10:40pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Or assuming your board has a PCI-E slot you could spend $75 and be only one generation behind:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130075
You should seriously consider a video card upgrade 3dpk.
The 7600 and 7900 series cards run TS 7.5 like butter and the 6600 in my laptop doesn't have any problems either.
Heck, if you're motherboard has a PCI-E slot, I've got an eVGA 256 MB 6600 card here I'm not using. I haven't exactly been kind to it since storing it in a drawer so I can't guarantee for sure that it still works, but I could ship it to you... |
Post by TomG // Sep 24, 2007, 4:59am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Intel Graphics controller is onboard graphics, which are always awful and worse than any card you install :)
I am surpirsed it shows up in the diagnostic. My first thought would be to go to the BIOS and ensure that the Onboard Graphics > Disabled is set (rather than Enabled). I have seen people install cards and not disable the onboard, which will cause conflicts.
Next though, even if you do the above, the card you have is very very old indeed. It was state of the art about 4 years ago, which is a long long time in graphics technology!
You wont just get benefits for tS, but for all graphics. And even if you dont upgrade to tS7.5, you will get huge benefits in tS6.6 too, from a very low cost upgrade. The cards mentioned are great bargains now, particularly something like the NVIDIA 7 series at below $100.
One thing - the workspace with a good card will blow the Modeler (tS6.6) away! I have scenes that move at 1 fps in Modeler, and 60fps in workspace. This happens with higher geometry scenes when you get up into 100s of thousands of polys. The old real-time view chokes, the new one runs smooth.
So if you havent made your decision yet, you might want to spend $75 or so and take tS7.5, as then you have future proofed yourself and will get a benefit across the board on your system (even stuff like Photoshop should run better), and be able to handle much larger scenes faster than ever in tS7.5. Would work out as a nice boost for your whole system :) I do recommend a new card even if you stick with tS6.6, you'll see plenty of improvement there too, and on every program that has the slightest thing to do with graphics ;)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by 3dpdk // Sep 24, 2007, 6:23am
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Decision on hold!
I need to straighten this out first.
Thanks Roman for bringing this to light!
Thanks Thomas, your technical advice is always valued!
Especially thanks Jack. I can't imagine how much further anyone could go to help someone out. Let me see what I can come up with in this little town. There's two custom computer builders here that serve Morgan City, La and maybe I can swing a deal! I don't guess a medium to good upgrade for around 100 bucks will break the bank and maybe I could have this solved by this afternoon. If not Jack, we'll discuss the shipping arrangements later.
There's still the matter of the facial animator, but if a new graphics board solves most of these other problems, I may change my earlier decision.
"... news at eleven!" |
Post by frootee // Sep 24, 2007, 6:49am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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couple other points 3dpdk:
with 7.51, you CAN switch to Model side, which IS 6.6. You can run all the plugins, MoStu included, with Facial Animator, etc. Folks, if this is incorrect I will give you one whole Dollar! Seriously, correct me if I am wrong.
Now, also, check out newegg.com. Cheapest place anywhere for top notch products. Oftentimes you get Free shipping. You don't pay extra for the small shop real estate, etc. And No Sales Tax. I got a ATI X1600 (Pro) card with 256 MB memory, 12 vertex channels, etc. for $125 about 6 months ago. And it runs 7.51 on my system smoothly. Compared to a nVidia 6600 on the other system (that's a Sloth). So you can get really good deals at newegg.com. Also tigerdirect.com.
BTW the good thing about that card is I am driving 2 19" monitors at 1280 / 1024 resolution. I should switch it to 1600 / 1200 though. I love space on those! It had a VGA port and a DVI port.
HTH!
7.51.... 7.51 .... 7.51..... |
Post by trueBlue // Sep 24, 2007, 6:56am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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I think also, at least it is for me with current PC, is that I only have PCI and not PCI-E. Limits your options for a better Video card. |
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