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Stormy Weather
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These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Stormy Weather // Image Gallery
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 6, 2007, 9:22pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Further to my 'Sailing Ship' thread in the WIP forum I thought I'd post this here so anyone so inclined could pass a comment or two on it. It's my entry to the latest Caligari Monthly Gallery.
For the really keen a bigger version can be seen by clicking on the thumbnail on this page (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=WZRD).
TIA
WZRD |
Post by prodigy // Feb 7, 2007, 2:18am
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prodigy
Total Posts: 3029
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Preaty nice!! i love the whater effect..
My only comment.. is the sun is to dark.. if you see the reflection from the sun on the whater is more brighter than the sun... i dont know if im doing well to comment works from others.. but i think whit that point your render is for hang on a wall..
Here is a small example retouched on corel to make the sun more brighter.
Supreme work
Best Regards. |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 7, 2007, 2:55am
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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Well Prodigy may have a point but I wouldn't have noticed if he hadn't retouched the image ... and it may have the effect of counter balancing the brightness of the lightning bolt but the darker sun has a more foreboding feel to it. Both work, just depends on the emotions you're trying to convey.
Your landscapes have a most recognizable style that I really enjoy seeing, and in my opinion you really hit the mark on the rough seas ... looks all too familiar!
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/images/icons/icon14.gif
Paul |
Post by Steinie // Feb 7, 2007, 2:57am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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W!zard I like this rendering a lot...BUT and don't take this the wrong way.
Why would you spend countless hours modeling this beautiful ship and then put it at that angle to the viewer. So I was disappointed when I saw it. Not from your lack of talent or quality ....but my expectations.:( Don't moth ball the model!
Everything else is great! |
Post by kena // Feb 7, 2007, 3:16am
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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I like it a lot. The angle sugests that you are in a smaller boat.
The kind of composition that you would see in a painting. You might want to play with the bloom settings a bit and add a bit to the specular on the setting sun. |
Post by Finis // Feb 7, 2007, 9:18am
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Finis
Total Posts: 386
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If you dim the bright reflections and bright areas on the cliff to match the sun then the picture will avoid the mismatched light noted by Prodigy and retain the foreboding effect mentioned by 3dpdk. You could have some reflection of the lightning bolt in the water.
How did you do the splash caused by the front of the ship? |
Post by MadMouse // Feb 7, 2007, 10:35am
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MadMouse
Total Posts: 1069
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Prodigy's comment on the sky was the only thing that caught my eye in your picture to.
Other than that my only comment is that you were robbed in the monthlys (again) ;) |
Post by spacekdet // Feb 7, 2007, 12:05pm
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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I liked your WIP render better.
I sort of agree with the robbing comment, and also about the sun/reflection value mis-match.
I've given up trying to understand why one image gets picked over another. I sometimes suspect there's a tophat and little slips of paper involved!
One more practical point: Unless the ship was in the middle of battle, I don't think they ran with the gun ports open and the cannons protruding- especially in a storm. The open hatches would be an invitation to flooding and the weight of the heavy cannon being extended would change the handling characteristics.
"Batten the Hatches"! |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 8, 2007, 1:53am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Well thank you all for the supportive and considered responses.
@Prodigy - well made point, Sir! I did agonise a little over the brightness of the sun versus the muting effect of the sea mist. Your example pic shows I was right to wonder about it! Thanks for taking the time to illustrate your point so effectively.
@3dpdk - Thanks Paul - if a professional seaman such as yourself thinks I hit the mark with my stormy seas I'm very well pleased with my efforts!! Your comment that my landscapes have a recognisable style is interesting given how much effort I put into making each image different. I guess it's just my "style" in much the same way that someone familiar with my music wouold recognise a new piece as being 'mine' without being told because of the style.
@Steinie; LOL I asked myself the same question! But have no fear you'll be seeing this ship again and more than once - I already have several ideas of how I want to use it in future images.
@Kena; Thanks. The angle was chosen to suggerst the viewer was looking up at the ship to give it more presence.
@Finis; thanks for your comments. There is actually a considerable amount of reflected light on the water (actually the whole scene) coming from an array of lights in the position of the lightning bolt. Much of the blueness of the image comes from these lights as does the highlights on the sails and bow of the ship.
The bow splash was created with a combination of techniques. Firstly I painted several spray patterns using The GIMP and painted them onto a group of nurbs planes using alpha transparencies and rendered this along with the rest of the scene. Unfortunately this looked a little flat in the final render so I used the GIMP once again to create additional foam using three different layers, one for the shadows, one for the midrange and one for the highlights. Not having tried this technique before I was rather pleased with the results.
@Madmouse: Thanks Steve, I appreciate the sentiment. I had great hopes for this picture to win me an upgrade to tS7.5 when it comes out but not winning is good too - it just provokes me to try harder next time :) . And realistically I can't complain given that Roman has selected almost all of my entries over the last couple of years for his companies gallery and has also selected three of them as the best of that month. I have both tS6.6 (which I love) and tS7.11 (which I'm still coming to grips with) thanks solely to his generosity and support so I'm certainly not in a position to start complaining!
@Spacekdet;LOL - you got me! Guilty as charged! I had exactly the same thought about sailing around a stormy coastline with all the cannons extended and the cannon ports open - not a practical seamanly choice I'll admit. In my defence I'll claim artistic licence plus the fact that this ship carries 64 guns and I'm not about to hide them after I've gone to all the effort of modelling them!! This is actually part of the reason I went for a moderately stormy sea rather than a "storm of the century" sea.
Thanks again folks - the support and encouragement means a lot! |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 8, 2007, 3:37am
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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I believe it's those subconscious things we each look for in our images as we refine them to our own idea of a "good image" that becomes our individual style.
Other than the overall detail in even the most distant objects (you took the time to include a porch light on the house on the bluff!) what I recognize in your style is not anything I could accurately describe ... but it's there.
Not sure my first comment makes sense, and my second is probably a critique cop-out ... but ... well ... anyway ...
[EDIT] ... an illustrative quality????? |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 8, 2007, 3:34pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I believe it's those subconscious things we each look for in our images as we refine them to our own idea of a "good image" that becomes our individual style.
Other than the overall detail in even the most distant objects (you took the time to include a porch light on the house on the bluff!) what I recognize in your style is not anything I could accurately describe ... but it's there.
Not sure my first comment makes sense, and my second is probably a critique cop-out ... but ... well ... anyway ...
[EDIT] ... an illustrative quality?????
Ah OK. That actually does make sense. I suspect that it has something to do with my lifelong interest in photography. My Dad spent his entire working life in the Newspaper industry and was an avid photographer and that's rubbed off on me.
Even when I try to do something different I still seem to produce a 'picture' or an 'illustration'. That's an interesting insight......
(W!ZARD wanders off lost in thought and muttering to himself) |
Post by rj0 // Feb 8, 2007, 4:57pm
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rj0
Total Posts: 167
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Beautiful work W!ZARD! Especially love the ship and the waves. Wonderful sky, too. All nice!
rj |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 8, 2007, 5:56pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Looks too dark to me, can't make out any details on the ship. Sails seem to be too big for the ship. I think the timber would be sticking out to support sails that width. No rigging lines visible. They did have torches and Lanterns back in those days. |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 8, 2007, 6:39pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks for the comments jamesmc. You are the only person who has suggested that the picture is too dark. I've deliberately chosen a reasonably dark scene but feel free to lighten it in your favourite image software if you wish. I was going for a half silhouette and am quite satisfied with the results. It may also be dependant on your monitor settings.
Sails may well be a bit too big as you say but I'm happy with them at the size they are. If they ARE too big it's not by much according to my references.
The rigging lines are indeed visible on my monitors. This link (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=WZRD) will take you to a page where you can find a thumbnail which will give you a much larger version (1280x1024) in which details such as rigging can be seen more easily.
Lanterns? There are three large lanterns on the stern rail, one of which can be seen glowing in the space betweenthe deck and the rear (aftmost) sail.
Was there anything about the picture that you liked? |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 8, 2007, 7:08pm
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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Liked? The lightning was cool.
If you look at your before and after pictures of supposable the same ship, the storm weather theme totally obliterates any work done on the ship. You might as well drawn the ship in rather than modeled it. There is no detail of the ship to be seen.
Before and after: |
Post by kena // Feb 8, 2007, 10:14pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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I think what W!IZARD was going for was the "dark and stormy" view. It adds a forboding for the rough weather ahead. He mentioned in one of his earlie posts that he intends to use the ship in other renders, and I'm sure that one will be a daylight scene. Thus the detail. On my monitor, I can see the rigging just fine as well as quite a bit of detail for the ship itself. Perhaps you have a graphis setting on your monitor too low? That could be the cause of it. If you put the picture into an image editor and up the gamma on it, you will probably see the same thing I do without. |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 9, 2007, 12:50am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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@jamesmc; your logic would be appropropriate and therefore your point valid if the two pictures you've shown were in fact before and after pictures. They are not and were never intended to be.
The first image showed the ship before the model was finished and was designed to show many of the details of the modelling as was this image.
The Stormy Seas scene, unlike the first two, was never intended to be a picture of my clever modelling - it was intended to be a dark, brooding atmospheric image of a ship at sea, thus the focus was on the mood of the entire composition rather than the specific details of the ship.
If it is truly your experience that "There is no detail of the ship to be seen" then I strongly urge you to check your monitor settings. I have 5 monitors here and I can clearly see many details in this image on all of them though they all have different monitor settings.
Further to this question of seeing details, both the hilltop house and the lighthouse are hi-res, highly detailed models that I had made for earlier images. The lighthouse alone contains 14678 polygons and high resolution textures, yet the lighthouse is so far back in the image that virtually none of this detail is visible.
The ship itself weighs in at 68255 polygons and is detailled all the way around - thus a view from the stern quarter misses the details in the bow, a view from the bow quarter misses the detail in the stern. A view with sails unfurled obscures details in the rigging and so on.
For me the details in the models are there to support the picture, the picture is NOT there to support the details in the modelling.
As Kena has said, I do intend other images featuring this vessel. In some it may well be the centre of attention in others little more than a distant smudge on the horizon or a background setting for a wharf scene or a shipwreck fathoms beneath the sea. After having spent some considerable time modelling it I'm moving on to other topics for the moment but will most certainly be using this ship in future work. You may or may not see the detail you want in those future pics depending the needs and requirements of the picture as determined by my own creativity and artistic licence (and of course the settings of your monitor!! ;) ). |
Post by 3dpdk // Feb 9, 2007, 5:53am
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3dpdk
Total Posts: 212
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I don't want to fan any flames but I think it can be agreed by all here that two of the main aspects of most 3D authoring software is designing and creating 3D models and the creation of images (or animations) of artistic value.
A highly detailed model can be showcased to display the modelers abilities and hard work, and then it can be used in an image meant to convey a feeling or idea where the detail of the model is not the most important thing.
No doubt, there are some here that prefer one aspect of 3D art over the other and their finished images will lean one way or the other.
In this case I think W!zard has shown the general public both of these aspects of 3DCG rather admirably!
Paul
PS. The width of the sails are pretty accurate. Actually, in calmer weather than in this image, they would lash outer booms on the main booms and fly sails from those, also, making the total sail width twice as wide ... and a lot of times it DID over-stress the masts if they got caught in a blow while flying that much cloth. Re-masting a ship was a common task of the shipyards of the day.
(not trying to hijack your thread W!zard, it just seemed a good time to mention this.) |
Post by jamesmc // Feb 9, 2007, 6:38am
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jamesmc
Total Posts: 2566
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He thrust his sword into the man of logic
The man of logic bled upon the ground profusely.
The logical man said "Why! What you have done is illogical!"
The man with the sword said, "Yes, but you have yet to
experience your own blood, I gave you that opportunity."
The Logical Man said "This makes no sense, it's a waste and
I am bleeding!"
The man with the sword said, "Yes, and you realize that logic
could not achieve the drama I did in one thrust of my sword."
The man with sword stood over the body and admired the stillness
of the logical man.
The logical man gasped his dying breath, "I see now what you are saying. That is, I am the precluder of my own art. I cannot force what is shown unless I show myself. I lay here viewing myself dieing and see the art in it. I cannot impose supposition rather I merely dangle my destiny for viewing. |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 11, 2007, 10:32pm
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Hmmmn. Well I guess I subscribe to a somewhat Buddhist perspective here in that I tend to favour the middle way.
As a musician I lean toward the concepts of harmony and synergy; two disparate things combining to create a third that is greater than the sum of it's parts.
It is often said we live in a dualistic universe and that true power lies in the point of balance between the extremes, the Tao is both the yin AND the yang.
Thus I like the balance between detail and mood, between accurate representation and emotional content. The words are not the story nor is the story just words. Even a brief perusal of my artwork should indicate this preference of mine.
I deliberately strive to avoid excessive reliance on 'realism' OR surrealism, instead seeking (and not always finding) a point of balance between the two that hopefully transcends both. Thanks to Paul for the comment that suggests I have acheived at least some success at this.
Thanks also to jamesmc for the literary response. Is this your own verse or are you quoting someone? Either way it seems to me that it is equally as foolhardy to destroy logic for dramas sake as it is to destroy drama because it is illogical. Indeed destruction is necessary to all creation - you can't make something without breaking something first - but this is only half the equation. Transcendance requires both death AND rebirth, chaos AND order, drama AND logic. The point of power is always at the point of balance between the extremes.
Your swordweilder may indeed have acheived a degree of drama but to me his argument seeks to justify little more than childish petulance and selfishness. "I want some drama so I'll steal anothers life for it". If there is no logic involved, no higher meaning or purpose then it is merely wanton destruction with no real dramatic content or merit.
If the root note of a chord overpowers the 3rd note, how then can we tell if the chord is a major chord or a minor chord? Music becomes noise without the necessary structure of logical mathmatics to give it form and meaning and drama.
Metaphysics and literary discourse aside, jamesmc you failed to mention whether the second image shown here is more to your liking or not. ;)
ATB
WZRD |
Post by stoker // Feb 13, 2007, 11:09am
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stoker
Total Posts: 506
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Brilliant Work W!ZARD!!:) |
Post by GraySho // Feb 13, 2007, 1:18pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Nice one Wizard. I've tried to do stormy water as well, with moderate success. Your water turned out really well. What I always like about your work is, we not only get pretty images, but quite a good read as well. Where I tend to go the way to say the most with the least effort ;) |
Post by kujisha // Feb 19, 2007, 7:20pm
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kujisha
Total Posts: 50
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Further to my 'Sailing Ship' thread in the WIP forum I thought I'd post this here so anyone so inclined could pass a comment or two on it. It's my entry to the latest Caligari Monthly Gallery.
For the really keen a bigger version can be seen by clicking on the thumbnail on this page (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=WZRD).
TIA
WZRD
What is trueSpace in the image and what is photoshop? Is all TS? What ver. TS? What plugins?:confused: |
Post by daybe // Feb 19, 2007, 7:35pm
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daybe
Total Posts: 562
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I must say of all the images you have posted W!ZARD, this is my favorite yet. Great image.:D |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 22, 2007, 3:58am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks for the kind words folks.
Stoker and Daybe, glad you liked the pic guys :D .
Graysho, the water is a procedural texture with a high mirror finish IIRC. It took a lot of 'tweak render, tweak render,' to get it right and I'm still not fully satisfied with it but I'm happy enough with the result.
Regarding the 'good read' comment - (chuckles) Thanks yeah I always did like the sound of my own typing!!
Kujisha, this image is almost all trueSpace. I don't have Photoshop but I did use the GIMP for two things. Firstly the sea mist along the shore. There is a degree of trueSpace fog (ground fog) to give substance to the atmosphere - you can see the line of fog running across the background just above the setting sun. I used the layer function of The GIMP to add several subtle layers of brighter thicker mist along the shoreline.
Additionally I also used the airbrush and layers functions of The GIMP to accentuate the froth at the bow of the ship. Originally I used alphamapped NURBS planes for the bow wave but this looked a little flat IMO so I added some more wave action with The GIMP.
Here is the scene as it came out of trueSpace with no postwork at all. All tS6.6, no plugins at all. Plus a screengrab of the scene showing my usual working layout (I have dual monitors). Hope this helps....:) |
Post by parva // Feb 22, 2007, 5:56am
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parva
Total Posts: 822
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the ship is awesome. Like the dirty look.
Just the composition could use some thicker fog or spume (maybe with particles).
It's very clear for a storm or is the storm leaving? :) |
Post by W!ZARD // Feb 22, 2007, 6:26am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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Thanks Marcel. Originally I was going to do much larger waves and more wind-blown spume and spray but then I was running into the problem of obscuring the ship too much. I settled for more of a brief squall than a full-on hurricane!
Also the final image does have more haze added in postwork. |
Post by Rareth // Feb 22, 2007, 12:58pm
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Rareth
Total Posts: 149
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I love the pic, infact its been my desktop background since you posted it :)
some one I work with suggested losing the shore and the sun (put it below the horizon like just after sunset), and rending it as if the majority of the light came from the lightning bolt.
I think it would come out too dark.. but who knows |
Post by GraySho // Feb 22, 2007, 4:00pm
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GraySho
Total Posts: 695
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Would look spooky for sure, and with some artistic license it would be bright enough ;) |
Post by kena // Feb 22, 2007, 6:29pm
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kena
Total Posts: 2321
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I've been wondering what that white thing on the cliff next to the house is... I just figured out that it's a lighthouse. If so, it's not to scale, and needs to grow about twice as tall. If not, Please enlighten me. :P |
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