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Skeleton not hiding when rendering with LW
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Skeleton not hiding when rendering with LW // Bugs
Post by Forcemaster2000 // May 13, 2007, 12:35pm
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Forcemaster2000
Total Posts: 130
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Posted about this over in the Tech forum, and a couple of other users are reporting similar problems.
I've unchecked the "show skeleton" box and when I render Crazy Bob in the modeler with Lightworks renderer, his locks and joints that show through his skin show up in the render, both animation and pictures. Below is a screencap of what's happening. |
Post by Forcemaster2000 // May 15, 2007, 12:10pm
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Forcemaster2000
Total Posts: 130
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Not seeing much reaction here :p
Anyone else having this problem? I bought 7.5 with the intention of doing character animations, so having the locks and skeleton showing up in every animation is going to be a bit of a problem! |
Post by Délé // May 15, 2007, 12:33pm
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Délé
Total Posts: 1374
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Yes, this is a bug. My guess is that this will be addressed in the patch as it's quite a crucial bug. Perhaps Tom can confirm this? |
Post by brombeer // May 15, 2007, 1:26pm
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brombeer
Total Posts: 1
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Opening the link editor view. Clicking on orange triangle. Click on Exp(and)tab from Skeleton and you 'll find, Show handles, Show locks Show structure, Visible for enabling, disabling. It worked for me |
Post by Forcemaster2000 // May 15, 2007, 1:56pm
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Forcemaster2000
Total Posts: 130
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Ok, I opened up the Link editor...and what a mess! Nothing I could click on that had anything to do with the skeleton would check or uncheck. Not that any of that made any sense to me what-so-ever!
In one of the several demo videos that convinced me to buy 7.5 they showed it being as simple as checking / unchecking the "show skeleton" button in the settings panel. If I'm expected to learn how to navigate that bowl of spaghetti called the Link Editor just to do some simple animations or renders, then I've wasted my money on this!
So far as I've seen, there seems to be a multitude of redundant buttons and tools that make doing anything more than the simplest of things very, very complicated. Hopefully this can be streamlined with a patch.
*edit*
Ok, this makes no sense. When I load up Crazy bob, Tank girl, or make a creation of my own with a skeleton and check / uncheck "show skeleton" nothing happens...I loaded up the horse, and Bobby, they both start up without the check mark in "show skeleton" and their skeletons don't show. Putting a checkmark there makes their skeletons show up and unchecking it makes them disappear as they should! |
Post by Forcemaster2000 // May 15, 2007, 2:33pm
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Forcemaster2000
Total Posts: 130
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Thought I'd just post this here as it seems to be related...Did a kF animation with the Bobby character, halfway through the render I noticed something weird going on. It did this on it's own, not my doing :( Skeleton somehow detaches itself from the mesh and leaves it behind! As you can also see, for some reason Bobby's hair didn't render either. |
Post by mrbones // May 15, 2007, 9:00pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Try opening the 4D animaton aspect, and press story tab.
You should see actor or skeleton in track view.
If you see actor, open into skeleton track.
While skeleton is selected in track view, right click on dynamic pose tool.
Then in panels on right, deselect the second show skeleton checkbox.
Then skeleton should not show during rendering.
Cheers |
Post by Tiles // May 15, 2007, 9:19pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Yup, had also my fun with the new bones now. Too quirky. Alright. That for the new bones. Back to TS 6.6 and Motion Studio ... |
Post by mrbones // May 15, 2007, 9:24pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Tiles
Sorry, I do not understand your reponse to this thread,:confused: Could you be more specific as to the problems you are experiencing?
Does yup mean that you are having the same problem as forcemaster or as yup, my directions have helped solved the problem?
Can you please verify your definition of quirkyness with a more detailed description?
Yup, had also my fun with the new bones now. Too quirky. Alright. That for the new bones. Back to TS 6.6 and Motion Studio ... |
Post by Tiles // May 15, 2007, 9:54pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Is it really this hard to understand?
I have rigged a sphere for a first quick test. Which resulted in a deformed sphere in default pose. No, i didn't skin anything. Just attached the skeleton. Now go animate ...
I had the same fun with detaching skeleton a few moments ago. So i can confirm this bug. No clue how i did it though. And i haven't saved the scene.
I am uncomfortable with the workspace navigation speed, which is too harsh. Makes it hard to finetune an animation. Or even to rig the skeleton.
I can also confirm the skeleton not hiding.
Another chapter, not connected to this thread: You cannot export the skeleton to X for now. Which nevertheless becomes important to me in the nearer future. Luckily this issue is in progress. But even after asking the third time i got no response if this will be adressed with a patch in two or three months, or with the next mayor release in one or two years. So i guesss this means in one or two years. I don't have one or two more years to wait for a working solution though. Not again. I had this before with TS 7.11.
With other words: The current bones system is useless for me at the moment. And i haven't even really dived into it. Waiting for a patch? We all know what bugfixing is in TS. One or two years of waiting for the next mayor release. Just to be faced with the fact that half of the bugs are still there. Some of them even worse. And new bugs are added.
And taking all that into account means back to TS 6.6 and Motion Studio for now. I need a working bones system ;) |
Post by mrbones // May 15, 2007, 9:58pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Tiles,
Thanks for a more detailed description of your problem.
Your previous statement was a bit vague and lacking enough detail for me to make an accurate assesment.
I am still a bit unclear of your rigging problem though.
Skeleton hiding I explained a solution.
HTH
Is it really this hard to understand?
I have rigged a sphere for a first quick test. Which resulted in a deformed sphere in default pose. Now go animate ...
I had the same fun with detaching skeleton a few moments ago. So i can confirm this bug. No clue how i did it though. And i haven't saved the scene.
I am uncomfortable with the workspace navigation speed, which is too harsh. Makes it hard to finetune an animation. Or even to rig the skeleton.
I can also confirm the skeleton not hiding.
Another chapter, not connected to this thread: You cannot export the skeleton to X for now. Which nevertheless becomes important to me in the nearer future. Luckily this issue is in progress. But even after asking the third time i got no response if this will be adressed with a patch in two or three months, or with the next mayor release in one or two years. So i guesss this means in one or two years. I don't have one or two more years to wait for a working solution though. Not again. I had this before with TS 7.11.
With other words: The current bones system is useless for me at the moment. And i haven't even really dived into it. Waiting for a patch? We all know what bugfixing is in TS. One or two years of waiting for the next mayor release. Just to be faced with the fact that half of the bugs are still there. Some of them even worse. And new bugs are added.
And taking all that into account means back to TS 6.6 and Motion Studio for now. I need a working bones system ;) |
Post by Tiles // May 15, 2007, 10:08pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Yes, sorry for being too vague before. I think i was just a bit pissed about the detaching animation. If i only knew how i did this ...
The sphere was a really funny thing: I have inserted a skeleton into the sphere. Then skinned it. Recorded Keyframe 1, moved one bone a bit, recorded Keyframe 2. And at Keyframe 1 the sphere became disorted.
The skeleton hiding, well, i don't know if i find the patience to dive into the new bones again. As told i am a bit pissed at the moment. |
Post by mrbones // May 15, 2007, 10:13pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Tiles,
You can detach a skeleton (you said animation) by holding down the cntrl key while selecting mesh when attach skin to skeleton tool is present. while selecting mesh with arrow or pointer hover over mesh, mesh will highlight yellow, that indicates detach, green indicates attach mesh. If you click when mesh highlights yellow, mesh will detach from skeleton, if you click mesh when mesh highlights green, mesh will attach to skeleton.
How many bones are in your sphere skeleton?
I am finding good results with new bones in 7.5, I hope you find them to be useful in the near future as well.
Cheers
Yes, sorry for being too vague before. I think i was just a bit pissed about the detaching animation. If i only knew how i did this ...
The sphere was a really funny thing: I have inserted a skeleton into the sphere. Then skinned it. Recorded Keyframe 1, moved one bone a bit, recorded Keyframe 2. And at Keyframe 1 the sphere became disorted.
The skeleton hiding, well, i don't know if i find the patience to dive into the new bones again. As told i am a bit pissed at the moment. |
Post by Tiles // May 15, 2007, 10:32pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Well, being frustrated needs a valve sometimes. Sorry when my reaction was a bit harsh. I name the things. I am a straight out person. With all its pros and cons. Call me a bastard when you feel better then. I am a bastard sometimes ;)
The sphere, 64 resolution, was rigged with a skeleton of three bones. The bones were wildly clicked in. Not alligned or anything else. Just a quick test. Then skinned as it was. Plus added an IK handler when i remember correct. (gave me a hard time until i found out that i need an IK handler, and am not able to pull the bones like you can do in TS 6.6 native bones. Or by clicking at the joints like in Mostu)
Then i recorded Keyframe 1. Pulled the IK handler to deform the sphere a bit. All fine up to this point. Back to keyframe 1 i found the sphere not being a sphere anymore. It was disorted. Not the deformation from Keyframe 2. But a deformation that looked like the bones decided to have another vertex weighting now. Looked more like a rock than a sphere.
I wasn't able to reproduce as i have tested it again while writing here. Darn. But it happened once. And so it could happen twice.
You can detach a skeleton (you said animation) by holding down the cntrl key while selecting mesh when attach skin to skeleton tool is present.
Yes, i know. You must have misunderstood me at one point though. There was no detach involved ;) |
Post by mrbones // May 15, 2007, 10:40pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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If you could provide me a screen shot of the rouge deformation.
Are you using dynamic pose tool to move bones or physmove tool?
Or did you select the handle and a widget popped up?
Also when creating keyframes was skeleton selected in track of story mode in AE?
Or was actor selected while using dynamic pose tool when creating keyframe one.
I use story mode in AE to see which track is selected while posing.
You may also(not always) have to open your animation attributes panel by right clicking on the rec button on the animation editor.
Before setting a keyframe.
One more thing after attacching skeleton check the vertex weights by selecting the weight paint tool, then verify the bone envelopes of each bone by selecting the bone envelope tool.
One more tip. before setting any keys, after attaching skin, save pose with the save pose as default tool.
A lot of things can be undone now with the undo tool also. So if you get the strange deform again, hit undo or reset to default pose.
HTH
Well, being frustrated needs a valve sometimes. Sorry when my reaction was a bit harsh. I name the things. I am a straight out person. With all its pros and cons. Call me a bastard when you feel better then. I am a bastard sometimes ;)
The sphere, 64 resolution, was rigged with a skeleton of three bones. The bones were wildly clicked in. Not alligned or anything else. Just a quick test. Then skinned as it was. Plus added an IK handler when i remember correct. (gave me a hard time until i found out that i need an IK handler, and am not able to pull the bones like you can do in TS 6.6 native bones. Or by clicking at the joints like in Mostu)
Then i recorded Keyframe 1. Pulled the IK handler to deform the sphere a bit. All fine up to this point. Back to keyframe 1 i found the sphere not being a sphere anymore. It was disorted. Not the deformation from Keyframe 2. But a deformation that looked like the bones decided to have another vertex weighting now. Looked more like a rock than a sphere.
I wasn't able to reproduce as i have tested it again while writing here. Darn. But it happened once. And so it could happen twice.
Yes, i know. You must have misunderstood me at one point though. There was no detach involved ;) |
Post by mrbones // May 15, 2007, 11:18pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Getting back to the original topic.
I was wondering why there are indeed 2 different show skeleton hiding checkboxes.
The bottom one seems to hide skeleton for lightworks rendering and workspace.
Is this a function by design for a specific reason? Or is this a redundancy bug causing confusion? |
Post by Tiles // May 15, 2007, 11:58pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Thanks for the tips :)
I unfortunately cannot provide you with a screenshot. This happened while i explored the bones. This was not the only test i did. And i haven't saved any of the tests. I can only hope that i can reproduce it at one point. Will open a new thread for this when i am able too. Becomes too off topic here. |
Post by tomasb // May 16, 2007, 12:17am
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tomasb
Total Posts: 261
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character posing panel show skeleton: shows active skeleton (skeleton selected before activating dynapose tool) if it is hidden; skeleton is showed in front layer (~xray)
xray mode is activated automaticaly for all CE tools (dynapose has checkbox to control xray mode); xray causes that skeleton is also transfered to modeler (LW so be sure you don;t have CE tool active otherwise LW will render skeleton as it's mesh is present)
skeleton panel show skeleton: controls local visibility (visibility is determined from local + character preferences panel settings).
character preferences panel: controls global skeleton properties (so you can quickly show/hide various parts or override shapes of skeletons without setting each skeleton manualy. by default it is set to pass through so no changes are made to skeleton panel settings) |
Post by Tiles // May 16, 2007, 1:03am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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So there are three ways to hide the skeleton? Now let's find out which one is the one that doesn't hide as it should :) |
Post by Forcemaster2000 // May 16, 2007, 11:12am
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Forcemaster2000
Total Posts: 130
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Mr. Bones, thx for the tips and info...unfortunately I'm not getting the same results that you are. Here are three screenshots of what I'm getting when trying to follow your advice.
As you can see, I'm not getting anything about "skeleton" view in story tab and I'm therefore not find a second show skeleton checkbox.
And for those with Caligari development...I don't understand the need for multiple checkboxes to accomplish the same thing. |
Post by tomasb // May 16, 2007, 11:26am
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tomasb
Total Posts: 261
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So there are three ways to hide the skeleton? Now let's find out which one is the one that doesn't hide as it should :)
well...
when you first create skeleton you want to see it's bones. (default settings). Then you attach mesh (and because mostly mesh is solid, it will obscure skeleton). Entering tools with solid skin makes editing skeleton a bit problematic since bones are hidden - that's why they are x-rayed automaticaly - the only difference here is dynamic posing tool where you don't need to see skeleton (you can drag skin directly; well if you want to modify locks it may become handy that's why there is that switch). Then you create motions you want for your character(s). After you are done with motions and you use motions and tweaking to get desired result, you are no more interested in skeletons or locks because they will distract you so you can turn them off from global character editor panel - instead of going from character to character you have global setting for this...
this is something very similar to object render attributes - where you have global settings - for example wire rendering and local per-object settings. |
Post by mrbones // May 16, 2007, 11:30am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Force Master,
It looks like your skeleton was not selected inside the crazyBob actor node and that is a procedural clip with no animation inside.
So it is showing, the actor and not the skeleton.
Try using the dynamicpose tool, pose, then create one keyframe, skeleton should show in track, then when you right click on dynamic pose tool when skeleton is selected in track you will see the second hide skeleton checkbox, the one for skeleton, not actor.
Also if you switch to 2D aspect, go inside crazybob actor node via orange triangle, then go inside the noname node via orange triangle, this is the mesh.
Inside there is a local object attributes node set to object mode with opacity set, this may be why the skeleton is rendering is because the mesh or skin is set to somewhat see through. just delete this node(see picture and your mesh should render solid.
I suggested that this local object attribute should not be included inside the crazybob mesh node as it might cause confusion.
Sorry for all your troubles.
Cheers |
Post by trueBlue // May 16, 2007, 11:41am
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Mr. Bones:
I can confirm that this is indeed a problem with the LW renderer. I have been sucessfull in hiding everything on one occasion but the rest of my attempts have proved futile. |
Post by mrbones // May 16, 2007, 11:43am
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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trueBlue, i think what I wrote below has something to do with it too.
Cheers
Mr. Bones:
I can confirm that this is indeed a problem with the LW renderer. I have been sucessfull in hiding everything on one occasion but the rest of my attempts have proved futile. |
Post by Forcemaster2000 // May 16, 2007, 12:01pm
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Forcemaster2000
Total Posts: 130
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Once again Thx Mr. Bones...appreciate your interest in trying to help me out!
TS 7.5's UI is starting to make Blender look like a viable option ;)
I think I'm just going to go back to 6.6 and wait for the eventual patch for this and hope that it will become a little more user friendly...I bought 7.5 because I want to animate, not become a networking engineer which is what this looks like you need to be to do an animation. I know others are accomplishing cool things with this upgrade like you yourself, but I'm going to have to take a step back.
Below is a picture of what I've done while talking here. I managed to crash the anim view again...clicking on anything in it does nothing. I had created the short (very bad) animation that is below (watch what happens and see if you can figure out what the heck happened there :D the bobby mesh detached from the skeleton and performed the animation while the skeleton just stood there!)
I then deleted both those characters and inserted the one you see in the pic. The anim view still shows that crazy bob and bobby are in the scene although I deleted them and although I've selected the new character and "tried" to create a keyframe, nothing happens now. |
Post by mrbones // May 16, 2007, 12:13pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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It looks like you are animating the whole actor and not the skeleton.
As soon as you animate with the dynamic pose tool the skeletons should show up in track.
Once again Thx Mr. Bones...appreciate your interest in trying to help me out!
TS 7.5's UI is starting to make Blender look like a viable option ;)
I think I'm just going to go back to 6.6 and wait for the eventual patch for this and hope that it will become a little more user friendly...I bought 7.5 because I want to animate, not become a networking engineer which is what this looks like you need to be to do an animation. I know others are accomplishing cool things with this upgrade like you yourself, but I'm going to have to take a step back.
Below is a picture of what I've done while talking here. I managed to crash the anim view again...clicking on anything in it does nothing. I had created the short (very bad) animation that is below (watch what happens and see if you can figure out what the heck happened there :D the bobby mesh detached from the skeleton and performed the animation while the skeleton just stood there!)
I then deleted both those characters and inserted the one you see in the pic. The anim view still shows that crazy bob and bobby are in the scene although I deleted them and although I've selected the new character and "tried" to create a keyframe, nothing happens now. |
Post by Forcemaster2000 // May 16, 2007, 12:23pm
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Forcemaster2000
Total Posts: 130
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I was using the dynapose tool. |
Post by mrbones // May 16, 2007, 12:30pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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I will post a movie example in a bit.
I was using the dynapose tool. |
Post by mrbones // May 16, 2007, 12:50pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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Here is an example, of how I animated and hid skeleton for lightworks rendering.
You were right the skeleton did not show in track under story, It was in dope sheet.
I think it should show under story as it used too. This movie confirms its not a lightworks bug.
The only way to hide skeleton was to select its node in the LE, not very intuitive as it used to be.
Hope it helps.
Cheers |
Post by mrbones // May 16, 2007, 1:05pm
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mrbones
Total Posts: 1280
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This bug you reported is a much bigger problem than the LW hide skeleton one.
It looks like not only did the objects not delete, but your newly inserted character became part of the old undeleted characters, not shown.
because they or one of them was selected, when inserting the new.
If you switched to dope sheet and expanded, you might have seen the new character under the old deleted objects heirarchy, And what is that white square? is that a missing icon?
This is very bad news for AE and I hope to have this resolved asap.
Good reporting, thanks a million!!
I then deleted both those characters and inserted the one you see in the pic. The anim view still shows that crazy bob and bobby are in the scene although I deleted them and although I've selected the new character and "tried" to create a keyframe, nothing happens now. |
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