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Library-is this torture legal under the Geneva Convention?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Library-is this torture legal under the Geneva Convention? // Rants and Raves
Post by spacekdet // May 24, 2007, 11:04am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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I want a new Library.
I then want to save an object into my new Library.
Should be a snap, right? Something an experienced (or even better, a completely new) user should be able to do quickly, rationally, and dare I say, elegantly?
Well, don't start to try to do it in the Stack panel tab handily titled "Library".
You can try, go ahead, I'll wait.
Tried everything, didn't you? left click, right click, double click, hold Control while you double click the scroll wheel while wearing your lucky shirt... I'll wager you might even have swore at your computer.
Let's keep looking...
Ahh, yes, an icon for the 'Library Browser'. This must be the place. Click it.
Looks like... uh... a text list? A very long scrolling text list.
The thought comes to mind that this icon's function could have been folded into the Library portion of the stack instead of getting an icon located somewhere else in the interface...why run outside the library into the street to check the card catalog for your Dewey Decimal number?
Now that the 'browser' is open, there seems to be a shortage of tools to work with what's here. I can scroll...did I mention this is a long list with a lot of similar icons? For a browser, there seems no obvious way to browse anywhere else.
The ever faithful right click gets me 'Create Library Place'
I just wanted a Library, but I guess everything has to be some place, so I clicks it.
Oh joy, the first Library that gets named after me. I feel as giddy as a Carnegie!
Type in MyObjects. Hit Enter. Oops, don't hit enter.
Start again... retype name, I guess it really wants to be told what path to take.
... at last, I can truly browse!
Now, this may just be a Windows quirk, but it starts me off in "My Documents"... seems to me the default start location to browse Libraries would be already inside, say, the tS folder conveniently already titled: "Library"
So yes, indeed, I want my new Library to be together with the rest of this awesomely long list of already existing Libraries. Now I can safely hit OK.
Alphabetically check the Browser List section 'M' for my brand new 'MyObject.obl'...huh...not there...oh, there it is, tagged onto the bottom of the list.
I think I did it!
But wait, what's this? My new object library has sprung into existence pre-loaded with something!
A lot of somethings!
Pre-Loaded into this just-created Library are the following items:
6350
So I have several random scene and object libraries being automatically created and injected into a new, and what I thought would be an empty, Object Library. Will there be room for my stuff?
I must have done something wrong...so I create a second new, blank, "Library Place". It too is a multiple birth filled with the same cast of characters.
I can't figure this out, so let's just move on. I'm already halfway to my goal!
I'll bet you can't wait to read the rest of the story, so here goes!
Now that I've got my new library, lets fill it up! (with my stuff)
Can i delete all these extra mystery items and start fresh? Our old friend Right Click says yes...3 clicks for each entry deletes them... but wait... it's deleting them from BOTH new Libraries at the same time?
Truly Mysterious. I can't even begin to fathom the logic of this, so I continue.
21 clicks later-since I can't seem to multiple select the items in the Library, -I have it all cleaned out and ready for adding my objects to my new Lib.
Only, I can't figure out how.
Double click? Nothing.
Right click..., I get:6351
Didn't I just do this? How many nested 'Places' and Libraries' have we got going here? My head begins to spin.
I don't want a new one, or another one, I want to add an object to you!
I better open the stack and see if that helps.
Wow, this looks ominous..."Library object.obl does not exist?"
"Library radiosity.scl does not exist'?
This can't be good.
In the Lib Browser window, I click the new library. Double click it. Sweet talk it. Is it loaded into the stack tab named Library? I don't know.
Can I open it somewhere and add my items to it? I don't know.
I see it in the browser, but it seems unresponsive.
I don't see it in the Stack, but I do see lots of 'does not exist' panels.
(brother, you aint tellin' me nothing, because my new Library has gone to some other Place.) I hoist the white flag, and begin writing this screedy rant.
I love my object Libraries in tS6.6... but this new system, is just plain cruel. Instead of what should be a fast, elegant, logical, visual, procedure, I had a struggle, lots of head scratching, an icon hunt, a mouse workout, and a couple forays thru the trees of my hard drives. I uncovered the mystery of the preloaded new Libraries and the ominously disappearing assets. I found that you really can't have too many 'Places,' 'Libraries,' and 'Library Places' all nested and intertwined together. The only thing I didn't figure out was what I started to do...
Make a new object library and add an item to it.
Neither a 'newbie' or an 'old hand' should have to RTFM to do such a simple task.
For any of you readers who made it this far, thanks for your attention.
Folks, this should still be a 3 click operation- or less if you know the hotkeys. Instead I feel like putting on an orange jumpsuit before I fire up the program again... or make you read another rant like this. |
Post by Steinie // May 24, 2007, 12:00pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Roman, TomG, or Bobbins
Counterpoint?......:confused: |
Post by rrf // May 24, 2007, 12:06pm
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rrf
Total Posts: 319
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I remember seeing a video of Roman going over this exact thing, but I can't remember where it is - I'll keep looking...:)
rf |
Post by TomG // May 24, 2007, 12:13pm
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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Must admit never had much problem
1. Open Library Browser
2. If I am totally new, R Click and "Add New Library Place" - this gives me a unique set of libraries that are separate from where tS keeps its stuff. You define a name, and a place on your hard drive(s) for it to go.
3. R Click and "Add New Library" - I tell it what sort of library I want. I can in fact store anything in the library, this just tells tS what to store there by default if I don't tell it otherwise. Let's pick scene, rsscn
4. Open the library so it appears on the stack with a double click in the Library browser.
5. Save my layout since this library is one I'll be using all the time
And done.
It's even easier than that for me now moving between betas for instance - I just Create New Library place, and point it to the folder from the previous beta, and boom, it imports all the libraries I made last time. Now I just open the ones I want, and away I go.
I could in theory create more library places, but one is ok for me so far, with all my libraries in it.
It is very different from the last library system, I find this one much easier and more flexible, through you do need to know things, eg the library browser, creating library places etc. Since that is all new, and not the same as the old system, it will not seem instantly understandable with "Oh just like tS6.6" it is true.
HTH!
Tom
EDIT - the one thing I do run into is forgetting to tell it what sort of library it is meant to be, which defaults to a BMP library. Usually I dont want that :) I guess it is first on the list. Anyway after creating a few BMP libraries when I meant object, scene or layout library, I remember now to tell tS what I want to store at that stage :) |
Post by rrf // May 24, 2007, 12:15pm
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rrf
Total Posts: 319
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I don't know if this is it - I seem to remember Roman talking, but I don't get sound out of this one
http://forums1.caligari.com/download/tS75_video/AdvancedLibraries.wmv
Hope this helps , It's a link from an email
rf |
Post by Steinie // May 24, 2007, 12:21pm
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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I hear it very well but that is not Roman talking. Thanks rrf and TomG.
Back to you Spacekdet. |
Post by trueBlue // May 24, 2007, 12:54pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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I think what gets me to often is where in the Library Browser I should right click. Most likely what spacekdet did was right click in libraries which does not have an option to create a Library, only Library Place.
You should right click your Library Place to create a Library.
6355
Library Places are a folder to store your libraries.
6354
BTW Spacekdet, have you updated your library card? ;) |
Post by transient // May 24, 2007, 6:35pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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While I think many of the 7.5 rants about the manual so far have been far too picky, I'm afraid the library system has cause me some major head-banging as well.
I can see how cool it should be, but all I'm trying to do is import a library as per the manual and I can't get it to work at all.
First of all, there's no .llib files in my TS folder anywhere, as the manual suggests there should be. There's also no RS Libraries folder (but there is Rs Main Libraries). See piccy below.
I try to import a library, but I think I must be missing the point on what a library is. I thought that creating a library meant creating a library, but it seems to create a folder on my hard drive which holds my scenes and objects and then subsequently isn't recognised by the library browser as a library when I try to import it, if you get my drift - lol.:confused:
When I navigate to the folder as per the pic and try to open it, Ts just blinks does nothing.
I know this is probably a dumb question for people familiar with 7, but really this fundamental interface stuff could be much clearer, especially for slow learners like me - particularly for a setup as fundamentally weird (although potentially excellent) as this.
Please don't regard this as a flame, but I've genuinely had less difficulty with learning new things in the Shade 9 demo than this aspect of TS 75 and it's manual is in japanese.
I think it would be really cool to have a demo movie that goes step-by-step through the TS75 interface and ideally it's overall philosophy (like having no file menu) so that right-brainers like me can grasp it's logic without stress. |
Post by trueBlue // May 24, 2007, 6:44pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Do you have trueSpace7.11? And if so is it installed? |
Post by transient // May 24, 2007, 7:02pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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No, I'm using 7 for the first time with 7.5. Is the library system a new thing? |
Post by trueBlue // May 24, 2007, 7:33pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Well you are suggesting that you are trying to import tS7.11 libraries.
IE: (.llib) tS7.5 does have a new Library system and does support importing tS7.11 libraries. |
Post by transient // May 24, 2007, 7:54pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I'm only going by what's in the manual. It doesn't differentiate between 7.11 and 7.5 libraries. That image I posted is from the manual, not my workspace.
It still doesn't explain why I can't import a library. I'm sure I'm overlooking something simple. :confused: |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 24, 2007, 8:14pm
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Hi transient,
To load an existing library, you just double click on it in the Library browser. To add an existing directory structure, you use "create new Library Place". The new library system is really just a visual way to browse your hard drive.
How I have it set up on my computer is I have a shared folder on harddrive called tsProjects that I use for holding all my TS stuff so that I can access from any computer on my network. Within that folder I've created folders for each project I'm working on, and some for holding textures, and random stuff.
This works out great because every time I install a new beta, I don't have to migrate my libraries. I just add that folder as a Library Place and then I can load which every folder of stuff I need just by double clicking on that folder.
While I admit a File menu would be nice for loading random stuff that I don't want to dump into a library folder, and it'd be nice to have the library browser icon additionally at the top of the library tab on the stack view, I do like this new library system much better than the old 7.1 one -- which was a pain and occasionally lost your stuff....;)
Also keep in mind that TS 7.5 has added a lot of support for drag and drop. You can drag and drop files directly into open libraries from Windows Explorer.
-Jack. |
Post by Tiles // May 24, 2007, 8:53pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Well, there was this legacy way called save as. But you cannot bother the user with an easy way, can you ? It's sooo legacy :D
Please, Caligari, give us back the save option :) |
Post by transient // May 24, 2007, 9:08pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I don't mind the file menu not being there now, but it was hard to get my head around it in the first place. I know others have had the same culture shock. The manual doesn't put any emphasis on why, it pretty much assumes that as being self-evident. Very naughty.
I think Caligari are playing with fire bringing out the demo before the manual
has been improved, but I guess that's not my problem.
To load an existing library, you just double click on it in the Library browser. To add an existing directory structure, you use "create new Library Place". The new library system is really just a visual way to browse your hard drive.
I know the generalities of the library browser, I was only confused about the import library function. I was trying to reorganise my library places within the browser and I thought the import button was the obvious method.
I get where you and Trueblue are coming from. I see now that the import feature is legacy and not needed now. Thanks - these forums are a lifesaver:)
Maybe you two should write the manual next time.:rolleyes: |
Post by trueBlue // May 24, 2007, 9:17pm
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trueBlue
Total Posts: 1761
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Nooooooooo thank you very much. :) |
Post by Jack Edwards // May 25, 2007, 12:01am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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LOL
-Jack. <-- nods his head in agreement with trueBlue...;) |
Post by PrimMac // May 25, 2007, 2:47am
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PrimMac
Total Posts: 78
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Hi,
While many things of ts7 still elude me (like Scripting, for example), I had no problems with Library. Here's what I did: I clicked the Library Browser, right clicked Main Library Place and selected Create Library from the popup menu. Typed in a name "My Scenes" and OK button. Right clicked on my new Library and selected Open Library. The Library is now added to right hand side of the screen, and it was empty. Right click inside the Library and selected Insert as... from the pop up menu.
By the way, the Library type doesn't seem to be important. I have saved RsScn's and RsObj's in a Library created for BMP's, and successfully reloaded them afterwards.
Hope this helps. |
Post by transient // May 25, 2007, 4:02am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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It's cool how you can load different media types into the same library.
I actually like the library system a lot. |
Post by TomG // May 25, 2007, 5:09am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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It takes getting used to, if you are used to the "old" way of handling libraries. In the old method, libraries were magical special files all of their own that held indexing information that pointed to the individual files in the library.
Now they are just folders on your hard drive, and the libaries system just gives you an instant and visual way to access them.
It also removes the restriction of having to save a particular type of object in there as you noted - you can save images, objects, scenes and layouts, so you can gather everything you need for one project in one place if you like.
Or indeed you can keep scenes in scenes and objects in objects etc, again if you like.
Or you can make a new Library Place for a particular project, and then store things as scenes in scene libraries for that one project, layouts in layout libraries etc.
Not to forget drag and drop. You can drag an object from the library onto Windows Explorer and you copy the file into that folder. Drag it from the librar yinto an email, and it appears as an attachment. Drag it onto your desktop, and its there on your desktop. That's neat too, and can be used as a "Save" feature to put the object (or layout or material or image or scene etc) anywhere you like :)
HTH!
Tom |
Post by transient // May 25, 2007, 5:30am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I think you should consider copying that last post and putting into the opening paragraph of the library browser section of the user manual.
Maybe it's just me, but I tend to learn the how more easily if I originally understand why. It's all much clearer, thanks everybody. |
Post by TomG // May 25, 2007, 5:52am
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TomG
Total Posts: 3397
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I'll make the suggestion :) One way or another, we'll need to see to explaining the libaries better in the manual it would seem, so we will look into that in our current phase of manual additions and rework!
HTH!
Tom |
Post by spacekdet // May 25, 2007, 6:35am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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Part of my approach and original point was that a user should not have to Resort To the Fine Manual for instruction on such a basic function.
After 3 years of beta testing I'm sure all of this has become second hand- keep in mind what I originally posted was a narrative of a 'first impression'.
It was not a good one, and I'm an experienced user. What is a new guy going to think?
Look, I love this program or I wouldn't have stuck with it for 12 years... but much of it's appeal has been it's visual, (and here's that word again) elegant way of working. I'm sorry, but the current Library system may be more powerful, but it could use a lot of 'workflow' refinement and consolidation.
The 'old way' took 3 quick clicks. The 'new way' took an afternoon of what should have been the pleasure of using my shiny new program and turned it into a frustrating, tortuous and futile experience. Then I spent more time instead writing a long ranting post. I'm normally a pretty level-headed guy with a long fuse, but I could feel physical symptoms of anger and exasperation as I tried to figure it out. This is not what you want your users to experience. I shut down tS for the remainder of the day as I just couldn't stand anymore negative reinforcement.
My thanks go out to all those who've been patient enough to explain where I went wrong in my 'workflow' ... but don't you wish you hadn't had to do it in the first place?
I'm going to latch on my space helmet, zip up my orange jumpsuit, and following your helpful advice I think I'll be able to accomplish what I set out to do yesterday... create a new PlaceLibrarySpace/Library and add an object to it. Wish me luck!
Maybe you can follow along in my next exciting episode, as I plunge into the "Mystery of the Stack Full Of Inscrutable Blue N/A Icons!" |
Post by transient // May 25, 2007, 1:51pm
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I may be missing the point, but how much easier to use could the library be?
Right-click, create library place. Right-click again to create a sub-folder for your scenes, objects etc. Double click to open this folder in the stack. Then it's another right-click to save something.
Or you can set up your file structure in explorer with your existing assets and just point to it in the browser. Genius!
I agree that the manual is 7.5's ugly sister, and this was the cause of my grief, but it's being fixed soon. These forums are also a great asset. It's like free 24 hour support, with the devs contributing practically every time someone has a problem.
I'm sorry but I don't see the workflow problem. It's much better than 6.6 imo, which was already pretty good. |
Post by spacekdet // May 25, 2007, 3:34pm
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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I am just a stupid monkey. |
Post by Tiles // May 25, 2007, 11:58pm
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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I may be missing the point, but how much easier to use could the library be?
Well, i have a database that contains tenthousands of files and thousands of folders. Alone the folder for 2006 contains 16000 files in 520 folders. Now go connect it all to the Library. And then try to navigate ...
Library is no go for me when it comes to save my scenes and meshes. And when that's the future, when i only can save to library, then it happens without me. |
Post by transient // May 26, 2007, 1:05am
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transient
Total Posts: 977
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I think you're being a bit dramatic, but whatever.
You can't please everyone. |
Post by Tiles // May 26, 2007, 1:11am
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Tiles
Total Posts: 1037
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Oh, i am not dramatic. I just tried to explain why Library is no go for me when it comes to save and load. With my real values.
I don't say that the Library is evil. It just is not good for me to save and load my scenes and meshes with it. I need a way to save my stuff by save as. And when this is gone, i'm gone too. That easy :)
You can't please everyone.
In this special case you can. Give the user the decision if he wants to use the Library or not. Keep the Library, but implement a load/save menu as it is in the modeler. And everyone is pleased :) |
Post by spacekdet // May 26, 2007, 9:38am
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spacekdet
Total Posts: 1360
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I may be missing the point, but how much easier to use could the library be?
Heh. Sure, it's easy now that I've shown everyone the wrong way to do it!
:rolleyes:
It was the second 'Make Library' click that threw me...I thought I'd just made one with the first click. Turns out I was only making a 'Place'.
Blame confusing terminology and stupid monkeys.
I'm still wondering why my new 'Place' came equipped with a random selection of stuff that even tS found curious enough to give question mark icons to:6413
I deleted them at first. Later when I reopened tS and tried opening my recent scenes and only got error messages, I had to go dumpster-diving in the Windows Recycle Bin to retrieve them.
Libraries are ok, but I'm with Tiles: don't cut me off from standard File/Save commands and force me to only use Libs.
Hitting Control S (unconscious muscle memory for me by now) will always be faster than any Library. |
Post by Steinie // May 26, 2007, 9:41am
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Steinie
Total Posts: 3667
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Before TS7.5 you were nothing but a Naked Mole Rat....yea for Hair! |
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