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Why do I have to relearn trueSpace, Caligari?
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Why do I have to relearn trueSpace, Caligari? // Rants and Raves
Post by wigmo // Jun 1, 2007, 9:36am
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wigmo
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I had a whole 6 paragraph rant typed up, but thanks to this forum I timed out and it disappeared. So I will try to some this up point blank. Why should I upgrade to 7.5 if I have to relearn the software? Based on the strange numbering system you use for products, Version 6.6 which I use at work is only.9 of a release behind this version. Yet, it is worlds apart. I have been unable to apply most of my trueSpace knowledge to this program, especially in the attempt to evaluate vRay (the only reason why I would want to upgrade from 6.6.)
To make things worse, there is this strange desire hide knowledge about the program. No manual, just a bunch of sales videos that show off new features. There isn't even a help file. It's like "Yeah, we'll totally redesign how to use the application AGAIN then let you fend for yourself when figuring out how to use it, then cross our fingers and hope you will shell out hundreds of dollars for it. Oh yeah, and there is a 30 day money-back guarantee." Makes no sense to me.
If someone at Caligari could explain to me this madness to me I would appreciate it. And should my first post find its way out of what ever black hole it found its way into please give that a read. It summed up most of the pain I am experiencing with 7.5.
-Shawn |
Post by JPSofCA // Jun 1, 2007, 10:16am
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JPSofCA
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As far as the manual goes, information found in the latest post HERE (http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/showthread.php?t=893) should provide some relief. |
Post by rrf // Jun 1, 2007, 10:21am
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rrf
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I'm not from Caligari, but I will give you an opinion - bear in mind, this has been gone over and over in the Forum recently - if you read some of the past posts, you might come up with at least some resemblance of an answer (or maybe not..). As I see it, TS7.5 is 6.6 (and 7.x) in the middle of a major transistion, from the old architecture, to the new. All the tools from 6.6 are still there on the Model side - the 6.6 Manual still holds true for all that info. Being the innovator that it is, Caligari tried something new....instead of making people wait for an upgrade (perhaps for a year or longer, remember, it's a total re-write of the Core) they decided on the approach that they're implementing now. Let the Users use as much of the new architecture and new tools as they had completed while they work on porting the rest of the tools over, with improvements besides.
Some people like their decision, some people don't - but you can still use all the 6.6 tools, while learning to use some of the new ones. Personally, I would feel completely overwhelmed if I felt I had to learn a completelynew TS - the new Link editor alone is going to take me a good long while....
Yes, I agree, there could (and perhaps should) be more and better documentation - but the videos and 7.5 Manual that is available is in my opinion, a good start for all the stuff you're going to have to learn. And Roman has mentioned 7.51 in the Captain's Blog with new Video tutorials.
Although at the present moment, I don't Animate, I understand there's great new animation stuff for this release (which is all on the Workspace side)
Finally - Yes - it's a bit clunky if you decide to switch back and forth between Model and WS - but there's also a way to have both sides visible at the same time (which is way cool, if you ask me...:))
To sum up - you can work with all the tools you know, and learn some new ones, while waiting for the rest of the program and even more new advances to be 'Bridged' permanently to the new Architecture.
Maybe Caligari made a mistake by releasing the program in this manner - maybe they should have let the people wait.....as I've written before, I'm in for the 'long haul', I enjoy learning new things and exploring the ins and outs of TS7.5 is great fun for me.
Hope this helps at least a little,
rf |
Post by Improv // Jun 1, 2007, 10:26am
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Improv
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You upgrade your software, of your own free will-no one forced you, right?
And it has been common knowledge around here for months that there would be major changes. Did you really expect things to stay the same as 6.6?
Change is the only constant in life, so get used to it-change isn't going to stop just because you don't like it. Besides, learning experimenting and trying new things is fun. ;)
I bet that you're having trouble because you're still thinking in 6.6.
Treat 7.5 as a whole new piece of software. You don't learn a foreign language by thinking of the sentence in your native language then translating it-you have to learn to think in that language.
It's a whole new world in 7.5, think of yourself as an explorer. The sooner you do, the sooner you'll be familiar with TS7.5.
Good Luck |
Post by Steinie // Jun 1, 2007, 12:05pm
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To me TS 7.5 is developing into a gem. No matter what they do Caligari will not do it fast enough. The new software is actually quite good. The new tools are awesome to use. The best thing people should do is use 6.6 for what it does best and 7.5 for what it does. As tools are added to 7.5 onward the Application will get that much better/stronger. I like 7.5 way better than 6.6. It certainly needs fine tuning and if they are listening to us the fixes will come. I've seen huge improvement from 7.1 to 7.5 so the future looks bright. My only concern is I don't want to be nickel and dimed to death to receive tools I will need in the future or fixes.
I turned off the Bridge and made it my goal of not depending on 6.6. I couldn't be happier. We all have our gripes but in the end I love 7.5. |
Post by Improv // Jun 1, 2007, 1:10pm
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I turned off the Bridge and made it my goal of not depending on 6.6. I couldn't be happier.
I only had 6.6 a few months before I got 7.1. I held off on learning 6.6 because 7.1 and the promise of 7.5 looked so good. I just dabbled in 7.1, killing time till 7.5 hit the ground. Like you, I turned off the bridge asap. I want to go forward with 7.5, not gaze back in history.
Gotta LOVE the 7.5 as Seinfeld would say! :-) |
Post by Délé // Jun 1, 2007, 1:31pm
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Délé
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If you expect any program to stay the same for years and years you're going to always be disappointed. Programs change and advance. At some point, some programs like tS need a complete rewrite. After 12+ years of writing in the old architecture, code can start to bust at the seams. It can be difficult and take a long time to find and squash bugs and write new tools.
Starting over with a new architecture means fresh new code that will be easier to maintain and write in. They obviously can write new tools into the new architecture much faster then the old one (just look how many new tools there are from 7.1 to 7.5 in just a year). They could never have implemented so many new tools that fast in the old architecture. Not only that but the new architecture also brings with it MUCH more power and many new possibilities.
It does take time to rewrite a vast program like tS. You can't replace 12+ years of code in just a year or two. Users would have been absolutely furious at Caligari if they waited until the new architecture was ready to be released on it's own. Users would never have waited 3-4 years for a new update. Caligari would have gone under. The only real choice they had IMO was to release tS the way they did. While it does cause a bit of confusion, it also allows users to phase into the new architecture slowly as they can always fall back on the familiar model (6.6) side.
Personally, I think it will be totally worth it in the end. The new architecture is vastly superior to the old one. There are many new doors that have opened up thanks to Rosetta.
BTW, Caligari is ahead of the curve right now. A lot of programs out there need to rewrite their cores. I believe both Max and Maya still need their rewrites. So it's nice that we're getting this rewrite over with ahead of the pack. The future is bright. :) |
Post by Improv // Jun 1, 2007, 2:56pm
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Improv
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Well said Dele, eloquent as usual! :D |
Post by frootee // Jun 2, 2007, 3:54am
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If I were to switch to another application, say, Maya, or 3DS, or blender, or Cinema4D, I would have to learn how to use all those features also. But, I would purchase them for that very reason: the useful features they offer. The same applies to 7.5. Like other applications which I am unfamiliar with, it, too, has new useful features. |
Post by wigmo // Jun 4, 2007, 1:58am
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Improv wrote:
You upgrade your software, of your own free will-no one forced you, right?
If you read my post you see that I didn't upgrade yet. This post was more of a "Why should I based on this reason." as opposed to others points who already paid for an upgrade and are now pulling out their hair.
Délé wrote:
If you expect any program to stay the same for years and years you're going to always be disappointed.
While that is partially true, name me a program that tries to reinvent itself release, after release? As much as have enjoyed trueSpace over the years something as simple as redesigning an icon and moving it's placement in the interface causes me fustration with a new release. That is also the case in 6.6 mode in trueSpace 7.5. You could try to convice me this is also the case with other professional applications, but it's not. |
Post by splinters // Jun 4, 2007, 2:15am
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I respect your points but the 6.6 UI in tS7.5 is an exact copy of the original 6.6 UI and the best attempt at bringing the new look of 7.1 into a familiar layout. I think it works very well in that respect.
After all it was Roman that said users had waited 6 years for the upgrade and they deserved a 'lick of paint' in the UI.
Hate to always be defending the UI but if you look at the 6.6 icons and those in model side of 7.5, they are very, very similar albeit with a more unified look and colour scheme and that much needed 'lick of paint'...:) |
Post by Steinie // Jun 4, 2007, 2:25am
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I sure wish everyone got off the "Icons are different" soap box and complain about substance. If you buy a new car do you want the dash board to look the same year to year? It's been modernized just like TS. If you don't want them to change why upgrade?
Complain about whats important, UI funtionality, bugs, etc. |
Post by frootee // Jun 4, 2007, 3:09am
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frootee
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Hi Wigmo.
If I were in your shoes (i.e. had the same questions, without satisfactory answers), and had the money to purchase a 3D app, I would look into purchasing a different product. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to turn you away from truespace, but speaking as a consumer to a consumer, if I had the same questions and reservations about an application, and had the money, I would probably decide to take the plunge and try another application. Or, at least, select one with a demo and full accompanying documentation, if such an option exists (not sure if you mentioned the lack of documentation with the demo or not).
HTH!
Frootee |
Post by Burnart // Jun 4, 2007, 4:23pm
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Poly modelling tools with SDS are better - much better than 6.6 imo. Where there is something you feel you can only do in 6.6 that's still there. The animation tools and physics etc are new & you should think of them as new tools.
People gripe because that's what people do! - when you go through the posts since the 7.5 release a lot of the complaints have been observations about doing things differently. Some bugs and a promise of fixes to come. Seems about par for the course at this stage.
Can you keep growing a software by adding bolt-ons? I think 6.6 was the end of the line for that approach particularly with the 400 odd icons driving the icon base interface. If a new UI is needed and your thinking of major functionality additions ie. LE & VRay integration then maybe Caligri have made the right decision for the future of the product. I think other programs HAVE done major rewrite including significant UI change over the years including Hash AM, Lighwave, Blender and others I'm sure. If you paid attention you would have heard a lot of griping from their user base at the time.
If the option is for the program to change or stagnate in the current form (and eventually die like most of the 3D programs that migrated from the Amiga) then I vote for change knowing the frustration it entails. Of course the old functionality is still there ....... at the moment. |
Post by weaveribm // Jun 4, 2007, 11:52pm
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No manual, just a bunch of sales videos that show off new features. There isn't even a help file
But on the positive side it seems that every time you need to know something you have a group of friendly and interesting and very knowledgable people in here over many user forums who are always happy to help when you're having difficulties.
Not to discount this 'online help file' here which Caligari provides and supports...
I worked away at something on my own for days with no luck and a little while after asking for help in here it was sorted. It's a gigantic and spectacular application but chiselling away at the smaller practical problems bit by bit until they fall into line can be rewarding
Peter |
Post by wigmo // Jun 5, 2007, 8:10am
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wigmo
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I think buttons are a part of UI functionality. If I have to spend 5 minutes searching for a feature because the button has been redesigned thats 5 minutes lost. Those 5 minutes can add up.
I've been evaluating other products when I can. I may stick with 6.6 for a while but I think down the road I may need to migrate. I'm mostly looking towards apps that have some industry recognition. Most people who are familiar with 3D know max and rhino, not so much trueSpace.
And these forums are great, which is a good point. It's why I want to rant about these couple of issues here. It seems people at caligari read them as much as the end users do.
-Shawn |
Post by sj41 // Jun 5, 2007, 8:47pm
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I feel the need to add my 2 cents to this discussion. I've had almost every version of tS since version 2 (I think) ending with 6.6, and I'm now trying the 7.5 demo. I want to like it but I can't figure out how to use most of the features of the new mode (I'm ok with the 6.6 mode). As everyone here knows, there is no help file or manual. I don't mind relearning tS but I need a help file or a manual -- or something! I don't remember ever seeing a serious piece of commercial software released without a help file.
I've never liked the icon-based approach Caligari takes because there is no menu system to fall back on when I can't find my way through the maze of icons. I remember reading that there would be a text-based UI but can't find any mention of it or way to activate it. I don't use modeling software every day and find that I quickly forget where to find the tool I need (and what its icon looks like). This is exacerbated by the lack of any help system other than the icon finder (and if I have to resort to this it really slows down my workflow).
For example, how do I render a scene using Lightworks from the Workspace (is this what used to be called the Player?)? And what materials work with which renderers?
I don't have the time or inclination to read every posting in this forum in order to learn how to use 7.5. I also don't have the time because the pre-release price ends in 2 days, and I won't upgrade for $399 -- 299 is already more than I want to spend. This is a complicated program -- both because it is powerful and because of its convoluted structure resulting from the bridge to earlier versions. I 'm impressed that some people have learned to use it without a manual or help system, but I don't see how Caligari can expect most of their potential customers to be anything but confused by the marketing claims and the current demo version. |
Post by Bobbins // Jun 5, 2007, 11:33pm
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I remember reading that there would be a text-based UI but can't find any mention of it or way to activate it.
Workspace feature only - on one end of the icon toolbar (right hand for a horizontal toolbar, bottom for a vertical toolbar) is a triangular downward arrow. Click that and select 1D.
For example, how do I render a scene using Lightworks from the Workspace (is this what used to be called the Player?)? And what materials work with which renderers?
Not possible to render from Workspace to Lightworks or Virtualight.
Workspace is what used to be called Player in tS7.1x.
Select the render engine, then only the valid shaders for that engine are shown in the material editor. |
Post by TomG // Jun 6, 2007, 4:50am
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Hi all,
Note that the full version has the full manual with it - only the trial version does not have the manual. It is quite common to release a trial or demo version without a manual too.
Lightworks can be rendered from the Model side, so rendering there is the same as in tS6.6.
A demo does have to have "something missing" else it would be the full application. In many cases, demos are time limited, or some functions can be used a certain number of times, or some functions just aren't there.
Our trial is not time limited, all functions are present and can be used as often as you like, and the only real limitation is the inability to load / save, and the watermark on the render. "Something has to give" though, so it is true that the full manual was not included. However, help is always on hand here from Caligari staff and other users, and is available to trial version users and full users alike, so you are not left high and dry with no source for help.
The Guided Tour also gives some examples of some features to try out, with video examples. Other video examples of tools in action exist on this site and on this forum too, you'll find many in the Captain's Blog for instance. With no time limitation or expiry on the demo, you don't have to rush to learn things, which we feel is important, and sure, someting has been removed from the full version, but we think this is a good way to approach the trial version.
HTH!
Tom |
Post by sj41 // Jun 6, 2007, 11:27am
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Tom, I understand that a demo has to be limited or crippled. I don't mind the watermark, or if some tools are disabled (tell us which ones, though), and I wouldn't mind if it were time limited. But to provide a demo without either a help file or manual? This seems to be counter to the purpose of a demo.
To me, a demo's purpose is to show the potential user the capabliity and (hopefully) ease of use of the program. Without some help, the demo user is left to stumble around trying to find where tools are, what they work on and when they work, etc. -- like a video game in which the player has to find the hidden treasures. I suspect some of your potential customers (like me) are not into games anymore. I, at least, quickly become frustrated when I can't find a particular tool and just close down the demo and do something else. In some cases, I'd even rather have the manual than a demo -- it often provides the best overall view of what an application is capable of.
I know I can ask the forum when I have a problem, but a response could take a day or more and by then I've moved on to something else. Also, the videos included with the demo are not always easy to follow, especially in keeping track of where the cursor is and what is being clicked.
TS 7.5 is a complex program, made more so by the bridge. I think the demo should at least include something (in writing) that describes the general structure (model vs workspace -- where each fits in a typical workflow, for example), where the tools are (buried under which stack of icons), and what can be used on one side vs the other (for example, why I can't use lightworks on the workspace side, but apparently can use VRay). I have a pretty good idea of what the tools do, I just can't find the one I want when I want it (I've actually had this problem with earlier versions of TS -- it's why I don't like the icon-based UI). Someone earlier compared tS with Blender. I don't think the tS UI is as obtuse as Blender's, but it's a contender. |
Post by Délé // Jun 6, 2007, 11:48am
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Délé
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Perhaps Caligari could at least release the UI guide with the demo so users can find their way around the interface? I agree the interface is more confusing then previous versions. Releasing the UI guide part of the manual might help new users at least find their way around. |
Post by GrimMoroe // Jun 7, 2007, 6:38pm
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I too agree that there should be some type of manual included with the demo. It doesn't matter how good an app is if people find it frustrating they will not buy it.
Now that aside I can tell you that I hated the original direction TS was taking after version 5 prior to version 7.5, so much so that I bought Maya and moved on, but I have kept an eye on TS in the mean time and somewhat upgraded here and there. Now even though I would never give up Maya I have come back to using TS quite a bit because 7.5 is IMHO a large step in the right direction. I would recommend this to others. So as to why you should upgrade........none of us can answer that for you, but the way I see it is you have two choices like I had long ago...learn the demo and make an educated decision or move on. I'm not trying to be harsh just trying to be honest. |
Post by Burnart // Jun 7, 2007, 7:28pm
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There has been talk of an online manual is that going to have limited access and not be available to demo users? Will only registered users be able to access it or (god forbid!) will it be only for proteamers?
As far as other software demos without manuals go many of those would have 3rd party books available - something lacking in the trueSpace marketplace (- although I've got a copy of "Truespace 3 for Dummies" I think its called or was it an "Idiots guide to Truespace 3" around somewhere.....) |
Post by splinters // Jun 8, 2007, 12:00am
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Memory fails me but I think I posted a quick guide to the UI after 7.5 was released...maybe worth a sticky for new users?? |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 8, 2007, 3:06am
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W!ZARD
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I really get totally baffled as to why so many people weird themselves out over the icon driven interface as compared to a menu driven one.
It's just as easy/difficult to remember the meaning and/or location of a word as it is of an icon. A word in a menu is in fact an icon - it's the same thing - it's a picture symbol with a specific meaning and your brain couldn't care less whether it's a word written in English, a symbol written in Chinese calligraphy or a pictorial icon. It still has to learn the meaning and location and function of the button irrespective of what pattern of colour and shape identifies that button.
Anyone who really thinks it is harder to learn an icon driven interface than it is a menu driven interface (particulary in treuSpace where so many toolsets are context sensitive) is simply doing a head trip on themselves and selling themselves short.
The human brain is a superb pattern recognition device - once you learn the patterns of the icons - a process identical to learning the patterns of a word in a menu - you have learned it, end of story. In fact the human brain responds better to pictorial symbols than it does to written word symbols which is why ancient cave art is all drawings of animals not words describing animals. For this reason logic dictates that it is actually easier and more natural to learn an icon driven interface - after all, a picture is worth a thousand words!
Once you've learned that the accelerator makes the car go faster and the brake slows it down you don't stop to think whether there's a symbol,word or pictorial icon on the pedals - you just use them.
<Rant mode off> |
Post by splinters // Jun 8, 2007, 4:26am
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The UI diagram is here;
http://forums1.caligari.com/truespace/attachment.php?attachmentid=5905&stc=1&d=1178997958
If Roman were to approve I could post the quick guide in an accessible format. |
Post by Norm // Jun 8, 2007, 5:34am
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I believe that the Quick Guide is part of new trial download. Original downloaders (early adopters:) ) may not have had access as it was added afterwards. |
Post by sj41 // Jun 8, 2007, 9:19am
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Wizard -- what you are saying is probably true if one uses tS every day. I don't -- sometimes not using it for weeks (even months) at a time.
To clarify, I don't mean strictly word menus. Icons with a drop-down menu bar at the top (standard windows UI) is my preference. I use several different programs and each one has different icons for the various tools, but they all usually use the same words in the menu. This greatly simplifies the pattern recognition I have to do. When I have trouble remembering the icon (or where it is) I can then resort to the drop-down menu for the tool. Many times I've come back to tS after a month or so and found that I can't remember where anything is anymore or what the icon for a particular tool looks like. Too many times I've gone cross-eyed staring at the icon finder looking for a particular tool, wishing there was a menu I could read instead.
Compounding the problem, several pre-tS7.5 icons are so similar in appearance that I have to wait for the tool help to appear to know if I've got the right one (I hope this has been fixed in 7.5). It's so frustrating I usually fire up a different program and use it instead. I have never understood why Roman is so dead-set against providing a menu bar for us memory-challenged users. |
Post by adriani // Jun 9, 2007, 6:17am
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adriani
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I am new here
I just know when they fix the bugs....Ts7.5 is seem very good but many bugs
and the Vray too.
Is very sad to wait another version like ts7.6 with the bugs fixed....and you need again...pay... WHY the caligari don´t put one page site the patch/fixes
like another sofwares.
I said it because today, you need to make job good,if not, the money out...
We need a good program with little bugs to make OUR clients happy
I am old user,and the ts6.6 is very good version. |
Post by W!ZARD // Jun 10, 2007, 2:23am
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W!ZARD
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Wizard -- what you are saying is probably true if one uses tS every day. I don't -- sometimes not using it for weeks (even months) at a time.
To clarify, I don't mean strictly word menus. Icons with a drop-down menu bar at the top (standard windows UI) is my preference. I use several different programs and each one has different icons for the various tools, but they all usually use the same words in the menu. This greatly simplifies the pattern recognition I have to do. When I have trouble remembering the icon (or where it is) I can then resort to the drop-down menu for the tool. Many times I've come back to tS after a month or so and found that I can't remember where anything is anymore or what the icon for a particular tool looks like. Too many times I've gone cross-eyed staring at the icon finder looking for a particular tool, wishing there was a menu I could read instead.
Compounding the problem, several pre-tS7.5 icons are so similar in appearance that I have to wait for the tool help to appear to know if I've got the right one (I hope this has been fixed in 7.5). It's so frustrating I usually fire up a different program and use it instead. I have never understood why Roman is so dead-set against providing a menu bar for us memory-challenged users.
Hi SJ - sorry, I missed your post.
Actually you have a very valid point! I guess for me that I just use tS all the time so I just learn it. The thing is of course that one needs to fully learn the interface - or at least those aspects that one most commonly uses.
I equate it to learning a new song on my guitar - or a new chord. It takes repition, lots of repitition to really learn something and it requires ongoing repititions to keep the knowledge fresh - much as an athlete needs to train regularly to maintain peak condition.
After about 5 years of trueSpacing (well actually much less time than that) I've learnt there is a consistency to the way tS icons are laid out, just as there is a consistency with the layout of more traditional menu driven apps. Buit even then when using deeply complex applications - 3d graphics like tS, 2d graphics like the GIMP, sound processing apps like ProTools etc while the 'save', 'save as', 'open file', 'new file' commands are fairly similar the actual nuts and bolts tools have fairly application (or at least task) specific words acting as icons.
I could be wrong but I suspect that a menu driven interface with the degree of complexity that tS has would still involve as much searching through menus as the currect interface requires searching for icons.
Finally I don't think I've ever used the icon finder facility in any version of tS that I've had (tS 3.2, 5.1, 6.6, 7.11 and 7.5). Icons tend to be grouped relative to specific tasks and once I've learned what tasks it's possible to do I find this greatly reduces the amount of icon searching required - for example I know not to go looking for Point Edit tools in the Animation toolset and vice versa.
With regard to your final remark - I recall reading somewhere that Roman believes icon driven interfaces are more intuitive overall - and I for one tend to agree with that. Check out MakeHuman - it's a free application which is totally driven by pictorial icons in such a way that it's very easy to use because each icon shows exactly what it does.
Lastly Roman has heard the call for a text based interface - in tS 7x you can easily set up any tool bar to be a text menu bar if you want - best of both worlds and it doesn't get much better than that!
Hope this helps |
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