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Oops. Forgot about the rules.
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Oops. Forgot about the rules. // Rants and Raves
Post by Naes3d // Mar 17, 2006, 6:18pm
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Naes3d
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Xara seems very strong. I have been thinking about getting it but I have had no problems with Corel software. Tho they should be better, but that's another rant.
But like I said before, I am just trying to sort out my thoughts. If you internalize every thought you have, you end up with a warped mind.
The best way to describe what I am doing with this thread can best be explained by citing an example from the Bible (sorry Alien).
Even God says he doesn't like people sitting on the fence. He says make a choice.
I've been feeling like I am at a point when I must make a choice in order for me to progress, and like I said, being stubborn doesn't help. |
Post by W!ZARD // Mar 17, 2006, 6:58pm
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W!ZARD
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SNIP
.... says he doesn't like people sitting on the fence. He says make a choice.
What does he say to those who choose to sit on the fence? Tactically speaking those who sit on the fence have 3 choices as opposed to one plus the added benefit of a better view!
I've never understood why sitting on the fence is a bad thing - I've always seen it as a euphemism for having an open mind.:D :D
In my opinion it's probably not a great idea to bring the gods into 3d discussions - while it does promote dialogue it's not often very constructive.
I forget who first said this (and I hope I'm quoteing correctly" but:
"We are all athiests really. I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you don't believe in all the other gods you will understand why I don't believe in yours". |
Post by Mitch // Mar 17, 2006, 8:28pm
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Naes3d Simply 3D was and is an awesome program. It had some content that is still not matched by any program today. The problem is their licence.
If that licence does not scare you not much will. You will lose your hand if you dare use their content for anything other than your personal pleasure. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 17, 2006, 10:42pm
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What does he say to those who choose to sit on the fence? Tactically speaking those who sit on the fence have 3 choices as opposed to one plus the added benefit of a better view!
I've never understood why sitting on the fence is a bad thing - I've always seen it as a euphemism for having an open mind.:D :D
In my opinion it's probably not a great idea to bring the gods into 3d discussions - while it does promote dialogue it's not often very constructive.
I forget who first said this (and I hope I'm quoteing correctly" but:
"We are all athiests really. I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you don't believe in all the other gods you will understand why I don't believe in yours".
Not really saying that God has commanded me to choose. As Freud said 'sometimes a cigar is just a cigar'. Explaining the biblical quote would take this well beyond topic. The biggest reason to not bring God into a discussion is that some people refuse to let a sleeping dog lay. I figured most people would see it for the example it was.
Basically, there is nothing wrong with using multiple applications to accomplish a task, but the idea that one must use multiple apps to accomplish a task is just down right silly. It's funny that people treat owning multiple 3D programs as if it is the way it should be. The most ironic thing about it is that your last quote is almost a direct analogy to what I am talking about.
On a smaller scale, the various 3D programs occupy the space of a 'god' to some people. Some worship at the alter of one, others at the alters of many. Others still recognized the other gods but chose to worship the one they thought of as the greatest.
Sometimes I don't think people recognize the fractal structure of human behavior. They condemn a mode of thinking and then apply the same principles on a smaller scale not recognizing that it's the method of thinking that must change as opposed to the scale upon which it is applied.
To prefer to use different applications to accomplish a project I can understand. To be forced to use several applications because of differing sets of capabillties I also get.
The belief that it is impossible for one program to perform a series of tasks well...I don't get. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 17, 2006, 10:43pm
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You're right Mitch. And I still miss Simply3D and Picture Publisher. But I guess those days are gone. |
Post by Alien // Mar 18, 2006, 8:10am
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Alien
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I forget who first said this (and I hope I'm quoteing correctly" but:
"We are all athiests really. I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you don't believe in all the other gods you will understand why I don't believe in yours".
Looks like it might have been taken from this (http://members.aol.com/bbu83/dear.htm) piece, by a chap called Dan Barker.
<edit>
Seems I was wrong, apparently your quote is by Stephen F. Roberts.
</edit> |
Post by spacekdet // Mar 18, 2006, 9:26am
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spacekdet
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You're right Mitch. And I still miss Simply3D and Picture Publisher. But I guess those days are gone.
Not here they're not.
I still use Picture Publisher daily. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 18, 2006, 2:02pm
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Not here they're not.
I still use Picture Publisher daily.
I guess I meant gone for me. PP never behaved the same for me under WinXP. I never actually experienced a crash with it until I tried using it under XP. What version of PP are you using? Do you use it with XP? Do you use Designer too? How far off topic am I now? LOL
Anyway, I'm just doing what the sign says to do: getting it off my chest. |
Post by trueBlue // Mar 18, 2006, 5:26pm
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I still use PP v6 too on XP, but I have problems sometimes. I also use Designer v6, I really love this program, it has the best drawing tools I have ever seen. I use it for my landscape designs. I have an extensive symbols library with size, shape, price's, etc. When I am finish I export it to Excel for bidding. Still works great on XP. I believe Micrografx bought out Simply 3D and Corel bought out Micrografx. I also import vector drawings/symbols into trueSpace. One of my favorite features in both of these programs is the awesome select tool. Click drag rectangle and right click drag and move rectangle to another area then continue selection. Did that make sense? |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 18, 2006, 6:16pm
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heh. This thread has gone metaphysical. :)
I think it all revolves around choice and pocketbook. It's the old "Chevy versus Ford" or "Mercedes versus BMW" argument. All have loyal customers and some call the others junk, poorly manufactured or whatever. It's a neverending story. :)
What made my determination is programs like Max and Maya have University level programs that are required to become proficient in it. I didn't want to spend all that time in a classroom, learning to use a program. :)
Although trueSpace requires a long learning curve in my opinion, it is reasonably easy to pick up and start doing stuff. My problem is I'm caught up in the era of electronic downloads where one doesn't get a manual. I mean a hard copy manual, where you can flip open to a page, prop it up by your computer and go for it. Something about flipping windows around trying to learn is not my cup of tea.
The problem with 99 percent of the tutorials with trueSpace is that they fail to establish learning objectives, tools needed, knowledge level or an order of in a learning curve. I realize that tS is not an educational institution, but...
Like some of the video tutorials. They must be using a larger monitor as it looks different on mine. It would be nice to know what resolution I am looking at. Like the GameSpace tutorials which are done by 3Dbuzz. Very nicely done, but I have trouble duplicating the image planes usage on my systems for some reason. When I move vertices, edges or faces, the image plane disappears while I'm working on it and won't reappear until I release the mouse button.
...makes it hard to align anything. :)
What I'm doing now is writing my own tutorials as I learn things. I can put comments as liberally as I want. I'm going to make it with flash plug-ins, so one can hover over the flash insert and see the action performed, instead of guessing what the instructor is talking about.
I've also learned that even with a 3D painter, if you have irregular geometry, you're gonna have mucho problems. So, one has to be precise when they make a model.
oh oh, am I blithering again. Sorry...I'll close for now. :) |
Post by Alien // Mar 18, 2006, 7:30pm
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hMy problem is I'm caught up in the era of electronic downloads where one doesn't get a manual. I mean a hard copy manual, where you can flip open to a page, prop it up by your computer and go for it. Something about flipping windows around trying to learn is not my cup of tea.
If you want a dead-tree edition of the manual, why not get 1? Caligari do give you that option. |
Post by spacekdet // Mar 19, 2006, 11:59am
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I guess I meant gone for me. PP never behaved the same for me under WinXP. I never actually experienced a crash with it until I tried using it under XP. What version of PP are you using? Do you use it with XP? Do you use Designer too? How far off topic am I now?
I'm using PP7 currently. Venerable, I know. I might have an unused copy of PP8 on cd somewhere that allegedy floated in from sea after it fell off a pirate ship. Not into that sort of thing so it sits unused and abandoned in a drawer.
Funny that you mention using it with XP.... it's a long story so sit back because I'm about to tell it. I wish I'd read your post first about PP not working under XP.
A un-named national chain of COMPuter stores here in the USA was having a two day sale on XP SP2 Upgrade version for $49.99- that's 50% off it's usual retail price. Now, I'm running an un-named earlier OS Edition that came out around the turn of the Millenium, so I figured I'd use the opportunity to finally upgrade my OS. It took two different stores and 50 miles of driving to procure a green box with XP inside. Now, I figured that guy in Redmond has enough money already, and frankly since my machine won't run tS7 (which also requires XP) anyway, what was the point of updating the OS? I'd get XP with any new computer I may eventually buy anyway, right? Well, the 50% discount was just enough of a reason to go shopping (damn Scotch blood).
I got home and began prepping my machine and files for the upgrade. Backup this, copy that, move the other thing, etc. I started reading tech sheets at the MS site about this, that and the other.
Idly, and without really thinking about it, out came the pocketknife and I slit the tape sealing the software box. I perused the glossy brochure inside which promised ease of use, safety, World Peace, and elimination of baldness and halitosis. I only looked at the cd, it remained stuck on it's little spindle. I continued reading on the MS site about various problems and solutions encountered during the upgrade process, and noticed a 'Hardware Compatibility Tool' that I could download and run before I began the upgrade. Ah, good idea, I give it a whirl. Download it, run it, it spits out a report which reads like an equipment list of darn near every component on my machine...all listed under 'NOT compatible'. Sheesh...I expected a couple things probably wouldn't work... but there's apparently not much on this beast that IS compatible. WooHoo!
A quick perusal of the receipt reveals that 'opened software can be exchanged but not refunded' It just keeps getting better! Awesome!
Wish I'd seen that validation tool before I slit the tape open.
So, to stray even further afield into OT territory, is there anyone out there in tS land who would like to purchase a fine, brand new, never been touched (I SWEAR I only looked at the cd, once, on a Sunday) boxed copy of XP Home +SP2 Upgrade 2002 Version (you need to have 98/98 SE/ME currently).
Included is the absolutely virgin CD, a couple glossy brochures inside a beautiful cardboard folder, and a perfect green box with the tape convienently sliced open for ease of opening.
I can ship anywhere in the US or Canada.
I'll let it go for the same price I paid- 49.99 + shipping costs to your location.
Contact me via email or MSN, my details are listed when you click my avatar.
So you see, it looks like I'll be able to continue using my experienced machine and Micrografix Picture Publisher (never used Designer all that much) for daily use after all! Hooray for Retro !
But seriously, somebody buy this pig in a poke, uh, I mean, this fine, fine piece of software from me!
Sorry, this offer only valid in US or Canada- or so the box tells me. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 19, 2006, 12:59pm
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Wish I could have been of help earlier. Yeah, me and that...place... you mentioned have had our differences over software. They did have nice sales every now and again. I got the ABC GraphicsSuite (PP7, Designer 7, S3D 2 and Flowcharter for less than a c-note. It was a steal for those programs. I stopped at version 9 of PP, but tried the version 10 demo. That's how I knew it wasn't going to work.
PP had some of he best filters. The lens flare filter ran rings around Photoshops. Probably still does as I don't think Photoshops lens flare filter has changed. Makes me want to partition my hard drive and install my Micrografx stuff under My copy of Win98. Unsupported as it is, LOL.
Maybe you don't have to sell your copy. Do you think that partioning your hard drive and setting up a dual OS boot would work for you? |
Post by Alien // Mar 19, 2006, 1:44pm
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Naes: he wants to sell it cos the MS compatibility wotsit said his hardware's not compatible with XP.
Spacekdet: what's your full system specs, just out of curiosity? [include as much hardware details as possible]. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 19, 2006, 1:51pm
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Oopsy, I completely skipped that part of the post. I take back what I said... |
Post by Alien // Mar 19, 2006, 2:04pm
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Yeah, the reason I asked him for his hardware specs is just cos that MS thing says no, doesn't mean that answer should be taken as automatically right, & infallible. You need to have a seriously ancient system, or some rather rare/obscure hardware to not be able to run XP on it. For example, my mum's old system ran it [albeit slowly (compared to mine at least :) )], & that was a P2/450, 128MB RAM, & a TNT1! :) |
Post by Mitch // Mar 19, 2006, 3:33pm
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I have to agree with Alien on that one. When I see what some people are running XP on I start to go all strange. I play by the rules, what ever Microsoft says I take as gospel. Then I see someone running Xp on a P2 processor and 128 mg ram and I go even stranger.
Now spacekdet you are on one tight budget. With the extreme low prices today of computers, that also include WinXp SP2, you must be living on fumes.
It not only Microsoft you don't want to give money to.
The funny thing is you probably produce five time the work I do with all my fancy toys. Those with talent don't need to depend on fancy tools. |
Post by Alien // Mar 19, 2006, 3:56pm
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I have to agree with Alien on that one. When I see what some people are running XP on I start to go all strange. I play by the rules, what ever Microsoft says I take as gospel. Then I see someone running Xp on a P2 processor and 128 mg ram and I go even stranger.
LOL. It's so long ago now that I can't be 100% certain, but I think I actually ran XP with even less than that for a short while. [either 64 or 96MB, I forget] & if memory serves me correctly, I think a friend of mine had it running on a ~300Mhz [could have been a 333Mhz] machine at 1 point.
As for what you say about playing by MS's rules re: recommended specs - actually, my rule of thumb for memory is to take whatever MS recommends & then double it [at least]. In my experience, MS tends to quote their recommended specs a bit low, especially the memory. That's not to say an MS OS won't run with the recommended amount of memory [or other hardware], or even less, I'm just saying that ideally you want twice the amount [of memory] they recommend, even for light use, nevermind a "power-user", otherwise you're gonna see your HD activity light on a lot of the time because windows will be making heavy use of the swap file. |
Post by spacekdet // Mar 19, 2006, 4:32pm
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Fumes is one way of putting it.
I think it's more my luck than my talent that's gotten me anywhere.
As far as money goes, you have to have it to give it.
In the interests of saving space (1 giant post per thread is enough for me), I've posted the ouput of the MS compatability test on my site. (http://www.spacekdet.com/2006/upgrade.htm)
and annoted a few items and deleted some that weren't relevant.
I appreciate the encouragement, but the offer still stands.
It may stand for a while because as far as I know, I'm the last person on the planet who hasn't upgraded yet. |
Post by Alien // Mar 19, 2006, 4:56pm
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Alien
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In the interests of saving space (1 giant post per thread is enough for me), I've posted the ouput of the MS compatability test on my site. (http://www.spacekdet.com/2006/upgrade.htm)
and annoted a few items and deleted some that weren't relevant.
I appreciate the encouragement, but the offer still stands.
It may stand for a while because as far as I know, I'm the last person on the planet who hasn't upgraded yet.
<looks at link>
Yeah, well I can tell you 1 thing from looking at that - looks like someone in Redmond wouldn't have passed a drug screening.
<cracks knuckles>
Right, you go start a thread in Hardware, & look up what model Gateway computer you bought, & while you're doing that I'm gonna hang my washing up & get something to eat, & then we'll see if we can get you sorted out. |
Post by Alien // Mar 19, 2006, 7:38pm
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....or not. I don't mind either way. |
Post by hemulin // Mar 20, 2006, 10:09am
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hemulin
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Unless the laws of computing have suddenly been turned upside down then your computer will most definatley run XP Home (though don't blame me if it breaks it). It is within the microsoft specifications to run XP. |
Post by Alien // Mar 20, 2006, 10:40am
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Alien
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The only possible problem I see is the motherboard, which appears to be a proprietry Gateway board, & whether or not there are drivers for it for XP. |
Post by hemulin // Mar 20, 2006, 10:53am
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Hmm, I personally haven't had any experience with gateway mobo's but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. After all, only drivers needed should be those for gfx/sounds/net (that might be onboard) and gfx, as we can see is offboard, therefore no problem. Sounds and network cards are normally standard ones (my old gateway ones were).
However spacekdet, maybe you could stick an old hdd in your computer and try installing xp - just to see if it works. Oh...did your computer come with whatever windows version you currently have on it, or did you install it yourself, or did you use one of those proprietory restore cd (I personally hate the things). |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 20, 2006, 12:44pm
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I am going to dig out my copy of PP7 to see of ot still doesn't work. It was PP10 demo that gave me trouble so I decided to move on to Corel products (Photopaint incorporated PP's lens flare filter). Maybe compatibility mode will make some diffence...
UPDATE
Installation of PP7 seems to have gone along without a hitch (even without setting compatibility mode). No crashing or instability so far. I dialed all the way up to version 9 and it crashes as soon as I attempt to use a tool. As I remember. I am going to dial down to PP8 and see what happens. Will report back soon.
UPDATE II
Looks like you are safe all the way up to version 8. I don't notice any problems in that either. Interesting. I never even bothered to install the older versions of PP once I found out the latest version was unstable. I just switched to Corel since I already owned that software too. Then the info that Corel had bought Micrografx was released, so I just said 'forget it' and went with Corel.
So the good news is, if you can indeed make XP work on your system - your version of PP will still work.
I am tempted to try installing Simply 3D... |
Post by Alien // Mar 20, 2006, 1:57pm
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Hmm, I personally haven't had any experience with gateway mobo's but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. After all, only drivers needed should be those for gfx/sounds/net (that might be onboard) and gfx, as we can see is offboard, therefore no problem. Sounds and network cards are normally standard ones (my old gateway ones were).
Mmmm... much to learn, you have, young padawan. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/yoda.gif
Aside from various onboard stuff, eg graphics, network, & sound, there are more fundamental aspects of the motherboard which require drivers. Now, it may be that some of these drivers come with XP [in some cases they do], but you can't just assume that they will. There's the "chipset" of the motherboard, the main components of which are usually referred to as the North Bridge & the South Bridge. These handle stuff like controlling the PCI slots, the AGP port, the IDE interface, etc [& often, though not always, the onboard stuff eg graphics, sound, etc].
Although it's probable that XP will come with some basic drivers for the motherboard, it's also possible that these drivers may be missing features/functions that the drivers made by the manufacturers may have. The manufacturer's drivers may also have improved performance over the more basic MS drivers. Often the generic drivers that come with XP are enough to get you into windows, & so that you can see the relevant piece of hardware is working, but you don't want to rely on those drivers if you don't have to.
<snip>
or did you use one of those proprietory restore cd (I personally hate the things).
You & me both! I've never had an off-the-shelf machine myself, but I've had to *@!% about with those CDs when trying to sort other people's computers out. |
Post by spacekdet // Mar 21, 2006, 10:00pm
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Well, after two days of sheer agony, XP is now running.
I could add a few chapters to my earlier sad saga, but I'll spare you all the gory details. I appreciate the offers to help; in a way you inspired me to go ahead and make the jump.
No sound yet, still haven't figured that one out. New drivers haven't helped.
SD camera card reader is working, PicPub7 is running, even my ancient Netscape 4.6 (for bashing together quick web pages) seems to have come thru unscathed.
I'm a little peeved it just installed onto of my old OS; I prepped an empty partition for it so I could dual-boot but I never saw the option for doing so.
Now I've got a ton of re-installing to do to rejigger everything back to where it was.
I wouldn't do it again knowing what I know now.
So, for now, it's no longer for sale.
Was it worth the 50 bucks? I'll know after a couple weeks of runtime- but I'm sure glad I didn't pay full retail price. |
Post by Alien // Mar 21, 2006, 10:47pm
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Your sound card should work, as my friend used to use an SB Live with XP.
It installing over your old installation is not good, & may be why you're having probs. If the old install is already borked by having the new 1 done over it, I'd say wipe it [after saving anything you need elsewhere of course] & then install [CD should be bootable]. The only thing with doing it that way is that it'll ask for your old CD at some point [as a security measure because it's an upgrade version]. It'll most likely look at it, & assuming it's ok [legit :)] it'll carry on with the XP install.
Netscape - if you're gonna use that old thing, why not at least use 4.79?
Also, OpenOffice does HTML, though I dunno how good it is [but it's free].
Sound card - have you tried a different PCI slot. No, I'm not joking. Sometimes sound cards [and occasionally network cards] can be fussy about what slot they go in. The reason I was going on about motherboard drivers is for things like this. Sometimes the drivers that come with XP are just enough to get you into windows so you can install newer/better 1s. |
Post by hemulin // Mar 21, 2006, 10:53pm
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Mmmm... much to learn, you have, young padawan. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alien42/images_for_caligari_forum/yoda.gif
Agreed, however I'm not sure there are many gateways left to practice on! |
Post by Alien // Mar 22, 2006, 3:52am
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Alien
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Agreed, however I'm not sure there are many gateways left to practice on!
Ok, now you've lost me... why the focus on Gateways? I only mentioned them because SK's hardware compatibility report listed the motherboard as "Oxnard", which after a quick google, appeared to be only found in Gateway systems.
Hmm... ah, I see the problem. After re-reading the post of mine you were responding to I see the fault is mine. When I said "there are more fundamental aspects of the motherboard" I realise now that I might have made it sound like I meant just that motherboard, when I actually meant motherboards in the general sense. |
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