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Is the Features forum really...
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Is the Features forum really... // Rants and Raves
Post by chrono // Mar 24, 2006, 3:07am
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... nessasary?
Caligari really hasn't listened to it's users for 4+ versions and it's not appearant that change will happen soon. So why waste the space on a forum that will only get ineffective attention and simply tick of users further. The 'Fix/Upgrade Bones' arguement is a good example of why the Features forums should be removed. Another is the continous call for plug-in intergration that has never happened. |
Post by Bobbins // Mar 24, 2006, 3:42am
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Yes, it is necessary.
Bones improvements are slated for the 7.5 release.
Mirror modeller, particles, global object replace, material lists with replace and array tools are examples of plug-ins that were integrated.
To say Caligari doesn't listen to users or that plug-in integration has never happened is incorrect despite what you might think. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 24, 2006, 11:36am
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O understand and agrre with both chrono and bobbins.
Caligari does listen to what it's customers want but all updates have been consistent with what the company wants to release. As bobbins pointed out, a good number of new features were adapted from it's customers work.
Caligari has tried to be a company that allows it's user base to profit from its platform but in some ways, this has been to their detriment. Overpriced tutorials being an example. For $80-$90 people have come to expect tutorials that will bring them up to speed on an entire program. You only get the basic use of a single aspect of the program at that price with tS tutes. I still see this as being ridiculous, regardless of the fact that it is video we are dealing with.
I believe the sentiment that chrono is expressing is that there are area where suggestions and complaints are simply ignored. |
Post by jamesmc // Mar 24, 2006, 11:55am
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I can't imagine all the work in designing/programming this stuff. When I try to write a simple script (in other programs) it takes me forever and a day just to make it even work! Then it still might be buggy under certain circumstances.
I've noticed a lot of stuff is available as plug-ins. Just look at Caligari's plug-in selection and on Websites such as Primitive Itch, there are a ton of associated software goings on out there.
I have Visual C#, Basic and Java from Microsoft, but it has several layers of dust on it. :)
The new Windows OS (Vista is it?) has been delayed for another year, so getting the full use out of 64 bit dual processors/video won't be right away. So even the big guys have delays. |
Post by KeithC // Mar 24, 2006, 12:00pm
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The more we try to hammer home the exhorbitant costs of the tutorials, the less anything is done about it. For a bit of time they were having a sale each week on those courses (I picked up the Texture University then), and I thought they were finally listening to us...but that was short-lived. I heard they are having some kind of sale on all the old 6.6 courses, but haven't been able to find anything on it. The new TS 7 course should have been bought from the author (if possible) and included as part of the purchase (if people bought TS 7 before the course came out, they could have been given a download link). Unfortunately Caligari will reap what they sow when it comes to a lack of free (and complete) intro tutorial videos; as I'm sure they already have (judging from comments I've read throughout the year from undecided customers).
I wonder if they have done anything new for the proteam people; like Roman said he would.
-Keith |
Post by chrono // Mar 24, 2006, 12:36pm
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Mirror modeller, particles, global object replace, material lists with replace and array tools are examples of plug-ins that were integrated.
Your incorrect. They were re-coded into TS and not direct ports. Bones has been asked for correction for no less then 4+ versions & any 'promises' now are totally worthless in the face of thier failure at listening. There are well over 100+ plug-ins that could've been intergrated into TS by now, and further refined, and to use the agruement that 'it would increase the price' is mote given the current price. Like 99.5% of ALL Beta Testers you are completely to close to the issue to have a good perspective upon it.
But that is NOT the reason why I started this thread.
Most of the customers requests have been widely ignored for so many years, so much to the point it requires the questioning of whether it's even NEEDED for Caligari to quite senseless waste resources on such an area. It costs money, Admin time, & users time that ALL could be spent better either working on reducing costs, patrolling/promoting another forum, and working in 3D. It would also channel people into other forums that are either slow or don't see a single post in them for months on end. |
Post by splinters // Mar 24, 2006, 12:49pm
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chrono, I used to find your earlier posts quite negative especially the way they compared the other 'big' packages, however I quite agree with some of your points here and I appreciate your candid views.
Having said that, it is not fair to say that 99.5% of ALL beta testers are too close to the issue to have a good perspctive on it. I know these guys and many are as critical and objective as a paying user might be....
Remember 98.7% of facts are made up....;)
Seriously, beta testers also have access to newer versions which may, in fact, answer some of these feature requests.
Add to that the 3D World review of TS7 which is by a beta tester-6/10. Sounds like it may be objective to me....maybe too objective....:confused: |
Post by Alien // Mar 24, 2006, 2:07pm
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I wonder if they have done anything new for the proteam people; like Roman said he would.
Not yet, well, apart from getting that tS7 course. We haven't even got the newer forum software. :( |
Post by splinters // Mar 24, 2006, 2:16pm
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Pretty dead there-last post is about two weeks ago....:confused: |
Post by Alien // Mar 24, 2006, 2:23pm
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True, but then again - which would you rather use? I seem to remember hearing you have vBulletin for the Beta forum as well. |
Post by splinters // Mar 24, 2006, 2:27pm
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Good point...well made..;) |
Post by chrono // Mar 24, 2006, 4:16pm
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Ummm splinters you, of course, realize that 2 of 'the big packages' are now priced into Caligari's market making them direct competion. But I'll even the playing field by comparing TS with Blender(freeware), Silo($109), and Carrera(spl?). ;) And just so you further understand I was not solely singling out TS testers. This goes for all beta testers. They are universally too close to the issue to have an even and unbias opinion of what they are beta testing. It also doesn't help that the testers have a natural arrogance brought on by experience with a package and tend to do little in the way of showing the packages depth via skilled imagery.
I didn't know that bobbins did the review in 3D World, i'm in the states so it'll be awhile before i get that issue. I'll have to take it, like i aways do with reviews, with a shot of Tec and a grain of salt. ;) Though without reading the article I find the score(6) actually quite close to what I would rate it. TS6 had something like a 8-9 when it came out. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 24, 2006, 6:22pm
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6/10?
That's horrible! It just goes to show: you don't get points for potential. That sure as hell is not going to win tS any new users. The fact that the reviews are generally written by people who are familiar with the app says alot too.
But as was said before, you gotta take reviews with a grain of salt.
I think there are several ways in which Caligari is shooting itself in the foot with the way they released tS7 and with what they concentrated on with this release. Basically, the multiple rendering solutons are a mistake.
the DX9 rendering is tS' best chance at setting itself apart from other packages and an incomplete implementation of VRay is hogging the spotlight. Of course, without Vray, virtually none of the buzzwords used in 3D rendering can be used to descibe tS output. And with all the renderers that tS supports, what would I do if I wanted to render an image with caustics, HDRI and SSS where I needed to edit the diffuse, shadow, specular, and refraction layers?
Caligari is listening to the letter of what users are asking for but not ackowledging the spirit of what the users want. |
Post by Garion // Mar 25, 2006, 5:00am
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With the 7.1 upgrade imminent, some of the gripes may of course become no longer valid, but its the 7.5 upgrade that is allegedlly going to redress the balance in the character animation side of things. But.. as has been said here, not everyone is a character animator.
I know I'm not.. well not yet :)
Will 3D World even review 7.1 or will they wait until 7.5.
Truespace is in an unfortunate position now, in that it is playing 'catch up' in a segment of the market that .. and I will stick my neck out here... it used to Dominate. Unfortunately for Truespace, other so-called BIG Apps, with far greater featuresets have now entered that tier at a lower price in some cases or just a wee bit more expensive in others.
I dare say that some of the new shiny things introduced in TS 7 will one day become commonplace in other apps, the difference is that these other apps already have the features expected in a modern 3D app in place.
So the new shiny things will be the Icing on the cake NOT the whole cake!
In my post that was deleted I warned Caligari not to bury its head in the sand as it seems to me that the writing is on the wall. I repeat that warning here.
As for loyalty, it has to be earned and can't be bestowed.
If Caligari continue to ignore their userbase and activley act on their requests, then the question arrises as to who it is that is being disloyal to whom.
So as I have said before, I am not the Bogey Man but rather a very concerened Truespace 7 owner, Warning bells are ringing, the question though is anyone listening.
Cheers
Garion |
Post by splinters // Mar 25, 2006, 5:44am
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It also doesn't help that the testers have a natural arrogance brought on by experience with a package and tend to do little in the way of showing the packages depth via skilled imagery.
.
Ironically, this was already mentioned in Beta forum; the fact that testers are not really assigned an area to test and so few have time to turn out really stunning imagery, although a few are getting close....;) |
Post by splinters // Mar 25, 2006, 5:45am
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what would I do if I wanted to render an image with caustics, HDRI and SSS where I needed to edit the diffuse, shadow, specular, and refraction layers?
.
You would buy Vray. All those features are in version 1.0....:) |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 26, 2006, 12:32pm
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You would buy Vray. All those features are in version 1.0....:)
That is what I see as a problem. And an example of the letter as opposed to the spirit. I want to get as much done in the core package as possible. That is how you determine a thing like 'value for money'. How many basic things do you need to go 'outside' for. tS has 4 different renderers catering to 4 different types of users. Choosing 1 render solution would have kept development costs down which could have been passed on to the user.
Consumers benefit from variety in the market, not necessarily from variety within a single package as this almost always drives the prices up. |
Post by spacekdet // Mar 26, 2006, 3:15pm
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.....Sigh. |
Post by splinters // Mar 26, 2006, 9:04pm
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Naes-TS7 has two renderers both developed by other companies. The third is an optional rendering engine again developed by another company. Caligari has worked on integrating function into TS7 not developing the renderers.
When it only had Lightworks, people complained about the limits of the engine.
Now you get....choice. |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 27, 2006, 12:55pm
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Naes-TS7 has two renderers both developed by other companies. The third is an optional rendering engine again developed by another company. Caligari has worked on integrating function into TS7 not developing the renderers.
When it only had Lightworks, people complained about the limits of the engine.
Now you get....choice.
Point taken and noted, Splinters.
My point; however, is that I don't think that the users are necessarily benefiting from the choices. I fail to see how the typical user would find that they need all 4 renderers. You only mention 3 renderers but: trueSpace7 supports no less than four photorealistic renderers.
I can't believe that having that many renderers did not contribute to the cost of tS. Especially considering that development is still ongoing on 1 of them (VRay). This is cost that is being passed down to the consumer. On top of that, I don't think that tS is fully 'LWA Enabled'. Which once again points out the premium cost for 'incomplete' solutions.
For all the options available, tS7 still lacks synergy. |
Post by frank // Mar 27, 2006, 3:19pm
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what would I do if I wanted to render an image with caustics, HDRI and SSS where I needed to edit the diffuse, shadow, specular, and refraction layers?
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You would buy Vray. All those features are in version 1.0....
Diffuse, shadow, specular and refraction on separate layers (ie. multipass rendering) in Vray? How did that one get past me? ;) Sounds good! |
Post by splinters // Mar 27, 2006, 8:19pm
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Yeah my mistake. Caligari class the DX9 player as a render engine which I suppose it is. And in truth that part of TS7 (the player) is where a lot of development has been done.
Frank, you are right-I was referring to the fact that all those features are creeping into Vray. I realise multipass is not an option....for now.....;) |
Post by frank // Mar 28, 2006, 3:55am
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Frank, you are right-I was referring to the fact that all those features are creeping into Vray. I realise multipass is not an option....for now.....
Bummer. I would like to have been wrong that time! :) Multi-pass in Vray would be a very welcome feature. |
Post by splinters // Mar 28, 2006, 4:22am
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C'mon now Frank-would they tell me anything that they would not tell you?....;)
Saying that HDRI is in there now so who knows...Pavol? |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 31, 2006, 7:28am
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I am wondering if I am being too hard on Caligari, but geez. I have until Wednesday to buy tS 6.6 for $99 (which is the price I have been asking for) but with all this talk about features, I am trying to gauge whether I will be gaining much from the upgrade. Not that there aren't a significant number of features oner my current version, but how many of them actually work?
So for those of you 6.6 users, what features went into 6.6 that work are the result of user feedback?
I was going to create a seperate thread for this, bur I think the answer to my question will help answer the title question of this thread... |
Post by KeithC // Mar 31, 2006, 9:53am
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I'm not sure about user feedback that turned into actual features; but I sure do wish people would have asked more for a better undo function, it drives me crazy sometimes. "Save Often" isn't just a clever catch phrase, it's a way of life with TS 6.6.
-Keith |
Post by GraySho // Mar 31, 2006, 10:01am
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I'm not sure about user feedback that turned into actual features; but I sure do wish people would have asked more for a better undo function, it drives me crazy sometimes. "Save Often" isn't just a clever catch phrase, it's a way of life with TS 6.6.
-Keith
I'm sure you'll find that request in the old forum more than once. |
Post by KeithC // Mar 31, 2006, 10:15am
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It's too bad TS 6.6 is no longer supported; it would've been nice to get that fixed (among other things). |
Post by Naes3d // Mar 31, 2006, 10:33am
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Specific questions:
Selective SDS - Is this feature stable?
Chamfers and Fillets - Is this feature broken?
Unwrapper - Is it of any use? |
Post by KeithC // Mar 31, 2006, 10:40am
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Well, I can tell you the chamfer tool is a bit of a problem at times. When you're creating beveled edges on an object (by clicking), such as a handgun model (to give the edges a bit more smoothness), you can't create these edges once you deselect the object. And, of course, the Undo function will not undo this operation either (once deselected). So basically you have to plan out what edges you want to use the chamfer tool on, before using it at all......oh, and don't forget to save your work.
I don't use the Unwrapper tool, as I find it a bit confusing. I use UU3D. There is a for-pay course on UV mapping in TS/GS though.
-Keith |
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