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Caligallery
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Caligallery // Rants and Raves
Post by trebs // Oct 3, 2007, 10:37pm
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trebs
Total Posts: 62
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Hi All,
Not many people will remember me, maybe a good thing too. I've been out of 3D for some time now as photography is my work now. I've still got tS6.6 installed though ;o)
Anyway.. What's an old fogie like me doing here.
I'm ranting, that's what.
What's with the Gallery? I just had a look and thought I'd been sucked back 10years. I'd love to know how it's possible to have such a consistently low standard of entry when ll the tools , gadgets, render engines that we craved for have been delivered. The latest version of tS seems to be packed full of goodies to make things easier, yet most of the output I'm seeing is rivaled by a lot of the tS3 work of old. Just flick back through the archives and have a look.
Why is it? I'm totally baffled. Is it because tS remains a stepping stone product? Something school kids can cut their teeth on?
Or is it that the time and effort spend in the forums or tweaking hardware is time and effort that should be getting to grips with the software. Where is the imagination and creativity? Where is the patience to work out an idea that knocks people over?
I'm not poking a stick at Caligari here. They seem to have delivered consistently, improving the product and keeping it up to date. Maybe slightly behind the opposition, but nevertheless, they're consistent. Well done for that, Roman + team.
It's up to you guys though. the users !! push the limits, use imagination, disconnect from the internet and create something. Start simple, make it live, make it real.
So yeah, I'm poking at users here. I'll probably offend many, and maybe even send some into therapy for not bowing down and praising the quality of work.
I might even get ordered to put my renders where my mouth is. My reply would be to go dig through the archives. Enjoy the trip back in time and the quality of work back in tS3 and tS4 days. I don't mean my work is a reference either, far from it. I do mean that most people could learn a lot from looking at things from that period and figuring out how you would do them with today's version on tS. Then take out all those fancy buttons, render options and think again.
Ok. Old man ranted out.
Model and render at will. :o))
With regards,
Trebs |
Post by Accu // Oct 3, 2007, 11:13pm
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Accu
Total Posts: 49
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Old man trebs rant well. Accu agree. :D |
Post by splinters // Oct 3, 2007, 11:32pm
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I can agree with you to some extent but as someone who has submitted work for many years (from version 2 up to 7.51) I have seen the standard, of my work at least, improved with each version and I would have struggled without Vray and other modelling improvements to produce the image I entered this month.
As I said elsewhere, I am happy for the exposure, winning is just a bonus but having someone imply that your work is not good is not exactly 'positive' exposure. And this is a pretty insulting line;
"I'd love to know how it's possible to have such a consistently low standard of entry when ll the tools , gadgets, render engines that we craved for have been delivered".
I have a WIP that is a similar standard to that entry and nowhere has anyone made similar comments. Maybe they are just too nice but I would hope that honesty would prevail rather than nice but insincere comments.
Maybe the caligallery does not always match up to those on CGSociety, Zbrush etc. but that was a pretty scathing comment directed towards a lot of good work that has been produced, and you just mentioned the gallery in general....:( |
Post by Accu // Oct 4, 2007, 12:08am
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Accu
Total Posts: 49
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...but having someone imply that your work is not good is not exactly 'positive' exposure. And this is a pretty insulting line;
Not sure how trebs thinks, but I would exclude your render from the low standard renders. It's just the way it's supposed to be for the book.
To make it up for my one line answer above, here are some links:
winner01 (http://www.caligari.com/gallery/imagesgallery/2001/Feb01/winner.asp?Cate=GImages)
winner02 (http://www.caligari.com/gallery/imagesgallery/2001/Mar01/winner.asp?Cate=GImages)
winner03 (http://www.caligari.com/gallery/imagesgallery/2003/Apr03/winner.asp)
winner04 (http://www.caligari.com/gallery/imagesgallery/2003/Sep03/winner.asp)
winner05 (http://www.caligari.com/gallery/imagesgallery/2003/Mar03/winner.asp)
winner06 (http://www.caligari.com/gallery/imagesgallery/2002/Mar02/winner.asp?Cate=GImages)
winner07 (http://www.caligari.com/gallery/imagesgallery/1999/May99/winner.html)
winner08 (http://www.caligari.com/gallery/imagesgallery/1999/Dec99/winner.html)
winner09 (http://www.caligari.com/gallery/imagesgallery/1998/Aug98/winner.html)
Now we could compare these older images with the ones in the September gallery.
Of course, it could be something else - most of the trueSpace experts aren't sending images anymore so the gallery is left to the beginners. Not sure if this is the case. |
Post by splinters // Oct 4, 2007, 12:16am
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splinters
Total Posts: 4148
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I appreciate the effort that went in to that reply and there are a few points I wish to address;
1. Several of the images you show were verging on photorealistic back then, is the current goal really to replicate what can be done best in a photo? Even trebs has moved over to photography- maybe spending hours and hours trying to recreate a simple photo is really not worth it.
2. Maybe many users have moved on to other packages but I know for sure that there are many advanced users on these forums too.
3, I for one, emply a simple illustrative style and Steinie's entries are varied and funny. Yes there are some simple renders at times but I do feel that there has been a shift toward varied use of tS rather than technically proficient rendering; even Caligari promote this through their true uses pages. |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 4, 2007, 1:19am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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I noticed this a while back -- not to say that many of the current entries aren't quality, I really like most of this months entries -- but I too find it surprising that we don't get the consistency of quality or number of entries that was seen with older versions of TS.
There are two reasons for that, firstly TS isn't a mainstream 3D authoring application now, where as back then TS was in the mainstream. So we have less of an artist pool now. I think much of the current active forum members (I can include myself in this) either started out as a programmer/computer science background then switch focus more towards 3D art or are beginners who couldn't afford to start with one of the mainstream apps.
In truth it's about talent. A good artist doesn't blame his tools. There are Japanese artists that have produced wonders one pixel at a time with MS Paint... lol. But soon these talented artists go pro and have to move up to the "pro" software packages. I think Caligari has been bleeding talent to the other apps for many years now. That is why such a bold change was initiated with 7.0. Unfortunately such changes take time, something that Caligari doesn't have a lot of, especially with how competitive the market has become this last year. It's clear that artists like Madmouse are in a league of their own on this forum, but that is the level of talent that we need to attract or cultivate in order for TS to be taken seriously again.
Caligari is working hard to improve TS and it's amazing how quickly tools can be built with the new architecture. So the future does look good for the TS and TS users, but it is important to keep in mind that the lag time in learning a new interface can be as much as 2 years. So for many TS users they are effectively beginners all over again! It's up to us active forum users to pick up the slack and improve the quality of our work, to help other users, and to support Caligari in it's time of transition if we want to see TS continue to have a bright future.
About the links provided above, I think that matches with Steinie's recent blog. The ones you chose all have one thing in common -- dramatic lighting. So maybe the advice to future submissions is to go for more lighting drama in their images.
Overall, I think we've seen a lot of improvement in the quality of work produced by current active forum members and if we can continue to help and encourage each other to improve, then not only will the gallery improve, but as TS is maturing as a more professional tool, we should be better able to retain more experienced and talented artists. |
Post by splinters // Oct 4, 2007, 1:36am
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Total Posts: 4148
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Wise words indeed Jack...:D
I had noticed a more, shall we say, experimental/WIP theme in a few recent galleries and many comments are pertinent. It was the general poor standard that hit a nerve.
I also agree about talent slipping away...While I am no 'master' tS serves my purpose well in both illustration and teaching but I am always amazed to see people like Parva and Madmouse still around here when they have so much talent.
And again, as someone in Beta during tS7's growth and having worked so extensively on the UI it is easy to forget just how confusing the new program might be to new and old users... |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 4, 2007, 1:49am
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Jack Edwards
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Thanks Splinters, now if only I could back my opinions up with cool works! :D
I can freely admit that starting out as a computer programmer, imagination and inspiration aren't my strongest points, and I'll never have the raw talent that I see in works presented by others. Hopefully through technical proficiency, much learning, and lots of practice, I'll be able to improve to my skills to a level that I'll be able to consistently produce quality work. |
Post by W!ZARD // Oct 4, 2007, 2:29am
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W!ZARD
Total Posts: 2603
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I think there is a degree of validity in Trebs comments - as it pertains to still pictures anyway.
Once apon a time a large body of tS users focused their efforts on producing fine static art using tS as it was. A comparative few worked with the ...challenging... bones and character tools of yore to produce animations.
That was really your full selection of options.
Now it's completely different - tS 7.x opens up a far wider selection of options. It's now possible to get hours of satisfying fun from tS just playing with the realtime options, the much improved physics and the wider options in render engines - all without producing anything at all like a displayable still image or animation.
I have been a regular contributor to the Caligallery over the last few years - but for the last 2 months all my tS time has been focused on learning to produce interactive 3d environments - which cannot be shown to their best advantage in a standard still picture. In time as we all gain greater proficiency with, and understanding of, tS's vast new animation capabilities I suspect the animation galleries will become far fuller.
Standard static pictures are now only one of a series of ways that the new tS can be used. Users who once may have concentrated on producing an artistic image are now focussed on scripting, or animations or 3d environments or character rigs or designing shaders for Vray and Realtime renderers - all activities that were simply not available prior to tS 7.x.
It seems completely natural that the Calligallery is not receiving perhaps the same level of quality input because tS 7.x offers so much more in addition to that traditional type of output. This can only be fully appreciated by looking at all the other options now available to tS users.
Even the forums are so much better and offer so much more than before - blogs anyone? - and a quick look through 'The Garage' and the 'Tech' will soon show that there is easily as much going on as before, it's just spread over a far wider variety of outputs.
Once a viewer could judge the potential of tS by looking at the calligallery - now however a thorough perusal of these forums and/or extensive experimentation with the software itself is the only way to fully understand it's capabilities.
IMO of course :D |
Post by Georg // Oct 4, 2007, 2:40am
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Georg
Total Posts: 270
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Many wise words have been said by Jack and Splinters and Wizard.
One aspect that may underlie some of these sentiments when looking at the stills is the fact that when you get more grip on the software you better understand how other artists made their pictures. Some of that initial magic (how did they do that???) may wane and you then look more clinically at a picture and composition and lighting become more crucial to keep your attention.
I come from a different background, being trained as a graphic designer and illustrator in the pen and ink era, and although I was never very good at it (I am now a molecular biologist ), I still can tell a good composition from a bad one. I have to admit that some of the recent gallery contributions are not very strong in that respect.
I use 3D as a hobby and sometimes for freelance illustrations and also for teaching. I am getting more and more into making complete scenes and, who knows, will send an entry for the gallery.
Georg |
Post by opiejuan // Oct 4, 2007, 2:57am
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opiejuan
Total Posts: 120
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Rob-O! Glad to see your picture taking old self back in town :)
I have to agree somewhat with your rant. When I returned after my 4+ year hiatus I expected to find a large quantity of art and artists that far surpassed the stuff we used to do. I was sort of surprised to find that was not exactly the case.
But in defense of some current trueSpacers, I see some excellent work being done that go well beyond our meager offerings of old (I won't name names, but you guys know who you are :) ). Many of the forum threads I have been following over the last few weeks proves to me that the tS artistic spirit is alive and well.
Since my return, I have yet to produce a single render worth mentioning. And honestly, some of what I have been seeing intimidates me a bit and makes me feel untalented at best. But you know what? I'll keep doing what I do and if anyone gets any enjoyment out of what I produce besides me, wonderful. If not, oh well :)
Opie
I do want to encourage ALL ts'ers to reach for the next level of excellance. Some are new to this art form and need helpful critiques and time to grow. But even some of us who have been doing this for a while now ...well... none of us work this hard just to produce substandard material. Few if any of us will reach perfection...but that is no excuse not to try. |
Post by butterpaw // Oct 4, 2007, 3:21am
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Total Posts: 831
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I'm sure you are all aware of the many named, and unnamed styles that exist in the realm of human artistic endeavour; genres which include everything from photo-realistic to utterly non-representational works. Interestingly, the wonderfully artistic works of photographers range a similarly broad gamut.
Personally, while I've harbored an abiding admiration of artists like Renoir and Monet, I've also discovered an enormous appreciation for artists such as
Zdzislaw Beksinski (http://www.beksinski.pl/) surrealist
Jason Basket (http://www.fcurve.com/) lead character animator, Cyan Worlds
EricWarman (http://www.hapshaw.com/3D/organic.htm) (a.k.a. Hapshaw) game modeling, texturing, lighting (Uru)
Bernard Dumaine (http://future-art-magazine.deviantart.com/art/Featured-Artist-Bernardumaine-65741720) surrealist
Hayao Miyazaki (http://www.time.com/time/subscriber/2005/time100/artists/100miyazaki.html) artist/animator (Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind)
Andrew Goldsworthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Goldsworthy) environmental artist/sculptorand many many more, including the wonderfully detailed and precise works of technical and medical illustrators, designers, architects etc.
My point is that artists will take any tools they find, and bend them to their particular artistic vision, and 3D modeling/rendering software is no exception.
I would truly like to see an additional category that celebrates the works of artists who use trueSpace to express an artistic vision which does not necessarily fit within the more conventional categories generally associated with 3D modeling/rendering software
In a very practical sense, I do understand that Caligari would like to showcase works which demonstrate the excellent rendering results achievable with the software, but inclusion of other categories will encourage even wider interest and usage, particularly with the development of trueSpace/truePlay potential... |
Post by Jack Edwards // Oct 4, 2007, 3:46am
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Jack Edwards
Total Posts: 4062
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Interesting and inspirational links Butterpaw! :) |
Post by butterpaw // Oct 4, 2007, 3:57am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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Glad you enjoyed them, Jack ^_^ ... Beksinski fascinates me - he produced such disturbing (yet beautiful) art, but was a calm and happy man. I simply cannot imagine where all that came from.. but he certainly could handle light in an amazing way..
As my special interest is gamedev, I particularly admire Jason Basketts animation and Hapshaw's modeling of game locations .. ooh :cool:
We have wonderful artists contributing to the forum, and I'd really like to see a forum gallery with all those wonderful images displayed.. (as a gallery - i.e. not just a forum where you have to sift through all the commentary posts to get at the images) .. if we have that and I've missed it.. please point it out to me! ^_^ |
Post by Chester Desmond // Oct 4, 2007, 3:58am
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Rather than engage in a justification of the gallery or a dissertation of TS' place in the 3d pecking order, I'm just going to say that I personally have no interest in reading the rantings of a former user. Trebs you seem to show up every once in awhile to pontificate about how poor this or that is, and then disappear until the next time you feel a mysterious need to be a edit by admin: caution Chester,pls re-read forum policy. Please understand, while I can't speak for others, your opinion -largely due to how it is usually delivered down your nose- means absolutely nothing to me. I'm sure most of us can go on, with self esteem intact, without your praise.
Perhaps I've missed the humour in your post. |
Post by SiW // Oct 4, 2007, 10:42am
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Ah, another fine trebs pot-stirring :P
As always, if you can get past the bluntness, there is some good advice here. No matter what the activity, it's easy to get excited about new tools and focus more on the new equipment than on what you're doing with it. As applications get more feature-packed, it gets harder for a newcomer (and I think we see a lot of newcomers in the trueSpace community) to to learn how to do the basics well.
I do think it's foolish to compare the Caligallery to any other though. It's hand-picked by someone who genuinely looks at through artistic eyes rather than purely using it as a promotional tool, and as such it's highly subjective. While you can look at certain images and point out technical flaws that could be improved, it's unfair to do the same for some of the more experimental pieces, and like splinters says, I've noticed a higher percentage of those in the gallery recently. I just can't agree that it's been generally low quality recently. I might not like every image, but I've just gone through this year's again and there's nothing to change my mind.
Lastly, there is much wisdom in the line about spending more time using trueSpace than talking about it. With the forums, it's easier to talk than it was in the tSML days - perhaps we should petition for a one hour a day time limit? ;)
Unfortunately, when someone blows in every so often to do do hit-and-run posts like this, it's hard to not get defensive. The tough love approach isn't always the best approach. You mean well though, right Rob? |
Post by trebs // Oct 4, 2007, 11:00am
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I mean it very well, Simon. You know me.
I just blow my stack every now and then out of frustration. I read the forum on occasions and see a lot of back-slapping and high 5's going on. Usually over very poor work. People are scared to speak out and say something is bad for fear of offending someone or scaring someone off.
I was in no way comparing the tS gallery to any other except it's own. The Archived tS gallery. I come back to look at the caligallery because it was my first passion, and I still have a softspot for tS. If I had the time, I'd sure as hell still be using it for doodles and sketches. I miss not punching pixels into something that makes me smile.
I'm just trying to understand why the general standard isn't picking up. Photo or NPR modelling or rendering, I don't mind, it's the basic skill and imagination I'm looking for, worked up into an image that really does stand strong.
So rather than just go for exposure, or take things personally. Look at the wider view and try to understand that this arrogant old fa*t is just plain frustrated that tS users of NOW aren't pushing the product, their imagination or skills anywhere near the limits. Yeah, generalising again. There are some stunning works around, but sadly, they are few and far between. |
Post by trueSpaced // Oct 4, 2007, 11:32am
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Okay, I can actually stand up and say that I'm one of the ones in the gallery, at least this month that really doesn't deserve to be, and of course it's the month's cover. I'm embarrassed actually that it's the month's cover. That glacier was a classroom project that I was forced to submit to the Caligari site, and I would have worked out a lot of texturing and rendering issues had I had more time, lol. That scene was done partially in TrueSpace 7.51 and partially in TrueSpace 5.2. I apologize that my glacier is making this month look bad, because the others were very good.
-TrueSpaced:banana: |
Post by Steinie // Oct 4, 2007, 11:57am
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I'm not apologizing for nothing! My work stands on it's own merits. It may not "properly" show trueSpace's tool set or strengths but I've gotten enough feedback to know the work is better then average. Every piece I have tried to push further and the only limitations are my own weaknesses and not the programs. I chose to stay strictly on the workSpace side by choice to help me learn the new tools. Maybe the work isn't to your liking but don't come here to say we're not trying!
I was THERE when you did your thing. Flame wars were common. Guess what? THIS group gets along, and we help each other and pat them on the back when they've improved, created tutorials to make them better. You on the other hand left.
Gallery isn't up to par? Yep. Are we working on it? Yep. Please get back in your Limo. |
Post by SiW // Oct 4, 2007, 11:58am
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I'm just trying to understand why the general standard isn't picking up.
But surely this only makes sense (and again, I'm disagreeing with you) if it's the same people using trueSpace? And it clearly isn't. |
Post by trebs // Oct 4, 2007, 12:31pm
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I'm not apologizing for nothing! My work stands on it's own merits. It may not "properly" show trueSpace's tool set or strengths but I've gotten enough feedback to know the work is better then average. Every piece I have tried to push further and the only limitations are my own weaknesses and not the programs. I chose to stay strictly on the workSpace side by choice to help me learn the new tools. Maybe the work isn't to your liking but don't come here to say we're not trying!
I was THERE when you did your thing. Flame wars were common. Guess what? THIS group gets along, and we help each other and pat them on the back when they've improved, created tutorials to make them better. You on the other hand left.
Gallery isn't up to par? Yep. Are we working on it? Yep. Please get back in your Limo.
I'm happy for you. If more people were more self critical as you are, pushing personal limits and skills, the general standard would go up and the majority would produce outstanding work like yours.
Flame away if you like. I'm just opening up the questioning here, the replies are good too. |
Post by trebs // Oct 4, 2007, 12:34pm
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But surely this only makes sense (and again, I'm disagreeing with you) if it's the same people using trueSpace? And it clearly isn't.
Si, I thought I asked that.. who is using it? Is it the same bedroom Pixar wannabe that we were once? That's great. tS is opening new doors to a new generation on each release. I'm all for that.
I'm just still not clear why the output isn't as good as the tools allow? One answer was offered. People are still getting to grips with the new tools and software. A perfect reason too. |
Post by Burnart // Oct 4, 2007, 1:23pm
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Not interested in your opinions trebs. Go back to your darkroom. |
Post by butterpaw // Oct 4, 2007, 1:41pm
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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This is making me, a beginner, learning new skills and new software .. feel so discouraged ... :(
I'm not going to read this any more ... |
Post by SteveBe // Oct 4, 2007, 5:38pm
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SteveBe
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Hey Trebs, why not take the high road? A posifive way to help people
would be to start a thread with a posting of one of your photographs and challenge
people to try to re-create the scene. Maybe even fire up trueSpace yourself and
give it a shot, just like riding a bike.:D
Just a thought.:)
Regards,
Steve |
Post by frootee // Oct 4, 2007, 6:34pm
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Si, I thought I asked that.. who is using it? Is it the same bedroom Pixar wannabe that we were once? That's great. tS is opening new doors to a new generation on each release. I'm all for that.
I'm just still not clear why the output isn't as good as the tools allow? One answer was offered. People are still getting to grips with the new tools and software. A perfect reason too.
Yes trebs. new tools, new methods. And really cool scripting and LE stuff. LE is Link Editor. Download the trial. Take er for a spin. Come to the weekly Tue. night scriptor meeting. Come to the biweekly Thur. night chat. We are learning this new cool stuff together. We're gonna fake the next moon landing with scripting! Muwahahaha! NASA ain't got nothin on us! HAHAHAHA! |
Post by frootee // Oct 4, 2007, 6:37pm
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This is making me, a beginner, learning new skills and new software .. feel so discouraged ... :(
I'm not going to read this any more ...
Nah butterpaw. You're doing well. BP-wan! Just don't crush the rice papah... they hate that... |
Post by Naes3d // Oct 4, 2007, 7:04pm
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If the mountain wil not come to Mohammed, then Mohammed will go to the mountain.
The application is not that which sets the standard. The end result is the proverbial mountain to which Mohammed (the user) is attempting to reach. It doesn't really make that much sense to wonder why a particular standard hasn't been achieved when each artist is reaching for his or her own standard. If the artist has achieved their own personal standard then that is sufficient.
The only standard applicable is the intent of the piece. Does everything in the piece look the way it does because that is how the artist intended it to look or not?
But to make what could make a very long post short, pushing oneself as an artist has nothing to do with including more tools as it does with understanding what one wishes to produce.
It isn't the artists job to use whatever tools the manufacturer provides, it is the manufacturers job to provide the artist with the tolls they will use. |
Post by butterpaw // Oct 5, 2007, 12:44am
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butterpaw
Total Posts: 831
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.. but it just came apart in my paws... :p |
Post by jayr // Oct 5, 2007, 3:43am
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jayr
Total Posts: 1074
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whoa...whats all the hostility for? all the guys doing is making an observation, we dissagree without getting nasty.
Something i have noticed about this forum, take it as a good or bad point, there isn't the same amount of critisim of people work as you get in other forums.
Seriously. post your work from here at Cgtalk or Eatpoo and you get a whole different kind of replies, some downright mean to be honest. I've always found this forum supportive and as such i've never been afraid to post an image here whereas i have held back from posting elsewhere.
Should we be offer more critisim, or stay as we are?
I have no idea.... |
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