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Caligallery
About Truespace Archives
These pages are a copy of the official truespace forums prior to their removal somewhere around 2011.
They are retained here for archive purposes only.
Caligallery // Rants and Raves
Post by frootee // Nov 2, 2007, 11:53am
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frootee
Total Posts: 2667
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Yes I too am looking forward to seeing the images and animations. |
Post by trebs // Nov 2, 2007, 11:59am
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trebs
Total Posts: 62
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You shouldn't have to wait too long trebs. Did you post anything this month?
I wish I did :(
Would love to get my hand back in again. |
Post by splinters // Nov 3, 2007, 12:42am
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Surely you can't grumble at the quality of entries this month Trebs? Some lovely work in there..but I only got an honorable mention...sniff..:p |
Post by trebs // Nov 3, 2007, 2:55am
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Surely you can't grumble at the quality of entries this month Trebs? Some lovely work in there..but I only got an honorable mention...sniff..:p
I just had a browse through the stills gallery and I'm pleasantly surprised that the bar has been raised a good few notches this month.
Flavio and Stanislav certainly have a good grip on the arch-viz work. Some details I'd question the artists themselves about, but an excellent production rate and consistency there. On-par with anything that I've seen used in real-life architectural presentations
Kheang Chrun has a great piece of modelling there. The rear bumper does look dented though, just on the seam between bumper and body panel. Maybe a surface glitch? Nicely presented but I'm pretty sure it could have been presented in a better way to claim that top spot.
Both artists are going for realism here, so there's no doubt when I say they could, with the tools available go a step up again.
The honorables offer a good range, I love the phone boxes :)
What does strike me though, most people still stick to the 4:3 ratio for renders. I'm sure Stephen's images would be much stronger if rendered to a wider format, putting the sun off centre and making more of a composition that leads from buildings out to the sea, the boat is banged up against the edge of the frame and my eyes want to see where it's going.
The story telling idea is strong in Paul's images. Nice wide framing and well composed shots. Not just images to look at, but ones to think about too.
I'm curious how much is done in post' though. I'm certainly not against it either. I don't see anything at all wrong with combining tools to get a result that works, in fact I feel the opposite, why restrict yourself to pure 3D output?
Nice show everyone. Grumpy Trebs isn't grumpy ;)
(Should I look in the anim gallery now?) |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Nov 3, 2007, 3:51am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
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but I only got an honorable mention...sniff
Be thankful, it's more than some of us got! |
Post by Steinie // Nov 3, 2007, 4:50am
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The planets aligned and critics are now happy, to celebrate may I suggest a Sauvignon blance until the next Wine...
Nice job everyone (who entered). |
Post by 3dfrog // Nov 3, 2007, 5:30am
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Many excellent entries this month. Nice to see trebs pleased too.
I'm very happy that I got honorable mention in animation, I like seeing my bot on the page. My talking head on there was just a wip, I submitted it anyway. Glad that made the page too. |
Post by frootee // Nov 3, 2007, 7:18am
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Yeah Congratz 3dfrog! Way to go!
Froo |
Post by roman // Nov 3, 2007, 9:09am
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I want to congratulate winners of October Gallery, I had great time selecting winners. Because of high quality and the number of submissions for October I had to eliminate some good images submited this month which would have made it easily to September gallery. Such is life, my apologies to artists whose entries did not make it this time, if you had a good entry you may want to resubmit it again next month, you never know
[Edit] I made a post to separate October Gallery thread before I saw this one. It is OK if Norm eliminates the other thread. |
Post by splinters // Nov 3, 2007, 9:21am
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Total Posts: 4148
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Not sure if that 'post' question was for me Trebs, but if it was, there is next to nothing done in post other than a click on auto levels and my magic filter (not real name obviously) that gives everything a dreamy look and takes the 'hard' edge off it.
For the cloud itself though I have been copying the cloud and blurring/moving each layer to get a 'fluffy' look. That's all really but as I write this I am thinking that you were not really aiming this question at me...;)
Glad you like them though, it was an honor to be in this month's gallery against such good work...but where was that cave troll madmouse...:rolleyes: |
Post by MadMouse // Nov 4, 2007, 1:21am
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but where was that cave troll madmouse... Life has been very distracting recently and I haven't had much time to work on 'Fat Boy' (or was it just because I was scared to go up against your little cloud;):D) |
Post by jayr // Nov 4, 2007, 5:10am
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wow, what a headline 'Troll scared of little cloud'! |
Post by splinters // Nov 4, 2007, 5:59am
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Total Posts: 4148
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Mmmm, I see a david and goliath inspired book collaboration. No, wait...haven't we been there before Steve?? :rolleyes: |
Post by MadMouse // Nov 4, 2007, 6:24am
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haven't we been there before Steve??
Probably would of been finished by now to :rolleyes::D |
Post by phile // Dec 10, 2007, 11:41pm
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Another long-lost tS user here - coming to this discussion rather late, for which I apologise.
I believe trebs makes a very good point. His style of delivery might be rather direct, but that's just the nature of the man. His thoughts are always constructive even if they may not sound like it. If he thinks something is wrong, he'll say so - I know this because quite a lot of my own work went through the trebs grinder and came out far, far better for it.
I cut my 3D teeth with tS and spent several very stimulating years as a member of the tS community before heading off into the big wide world, albeit with different software. However, I've kept an eye on developments in tS because it was the springboard I used to become a fulltime 3D artist and I have to agree with trebs that despite the development of the software, little progression has been made by the Caligallery. Yes, it will always be the talent of the artist that matters most, but better software always helps and it must be remembered that processor power has increased hugely since the time trebs & I were active with tS (makes us sound like old, old men) so it surprises me that we're not seeing works with more scope.
As for the "tough love" forum, I think this would be an excellent idea, at least for those who are really serious about learning and producing quality work with tS. No doubt many are very happy with the level they are at and that's fine. I bet some are not though, and would as I did, appreciate having their work dissected. So long as everyone knows what the deal is, and knows not to get offended by forthright views which may not agree with their own, it could be a very stimulating exercise for all.
Phil |
Post by Burnart // Dec 11, 2007, 12:36pm
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I guess there is a difference between constructive criticism and pointing your finger at the entire community and declaring "Everything you guys are doing is crap!". Having said that I think the term "tough love" is sometimes used to cover what's really just more abuse by people who consider their opinions as more significant than the person their critiquing and that (they believe) gives them the right to be arrogant. Lets not confuse good management with aggression. (Not having a go at you phile - the term "tough love" is one of my pet hates.)
Lots of people post into the "Work in Progress" forum. Any pros, former users or experts if they want to contribute to an overall improvement in the quality of the gallery could start by offering help and advice there - in a supportive and non-judgemental manner of course. ;) |
Post by rj0 // Dec 12, 2007, 7:23am
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Another long-lost tS user here - coming to this discussion rather late, for which I apologise.
I believe trebs makes a very good point. His style of delivery might be rather direct, but that's just the nature of the man. His thoughts are always constructive even if they may not sound like it. If he thinks something is wrong, he'll say so - I know this because quite a lot of my own work went through the trebs grinder and came out far, far better for it.
I cut my 3D teeth with tS and spent several very stimulating years as a member of the tS community before heading off into the big wide world, albeit with different software. However, I've kept an eye on developments in tS because it was the springboard I used to become a fulltime 3D artist and I have to agree with trebs that despite the development of the software, little progression has been made by the Caligallery. Yes, it will always be the talent of the artist that matters most, but better software always helps and it must be remembered that processor power has increased hugely since the time trebs & I were active with tS (makes us sound like old, old men) so it surprises me that we're not seeing works with more scope.
As for the "tough love" forum, I think this would be an excellent idea, at least for those who are really serious about learning and producing quality work with tS. No doubt many are very happy with the level they are at and that's fine. I bet some are not though, and would as I did, appreciate having their work dissected. So long as everyone knows what the deal is, and knows not to get offended by forthright views which may not agree with their own, it could be a very stimulating exercise for all.
Phil
Phil,
Have really enjoyed your tS renderings over the years! Glad to hear you are still keeping an eye on things here. Welcome!!
I concur. I definitely feel the argument has been successfully made for a separate "tough love" "critique me" forum area, as clearly some tS artists "just want to have fun" without feeling abused, and some want critical, constructive feedback to take their work to the next level (and see tS and its user base, through the Caligari gallery, gain better exposure and respect). A separate forum area would allow both to happen side-by-side.
Best regards,
rj |
Post by trebs // Dec 12, 2007, 9:23am
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trebs
Total Posts: 62
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Another long-lost tS user here - coming to this discussion rather late, for which I apologise.
I believe trebs makes a very good point. His style of delivery might be rather direct, but that's just the nature of the man. His thoughts are always constructive even if they may not sound like it. If he thinks something is wrong, he'll say so - I know this because quite a lot of my own work went through the trebs grinder and came out far, far better for it.
I cut my 3D teeth with tS and spent several very stimulating years as a member of the tS community before heading off into the big wide world, albeit with different software. However, I've kept an eye on developments in tS because it was the springboard I used to become a fulltime 3D artist and I have to agree with trebs that despite the development of the software, little progression has been made by the Caligallery. Yes, it will always be the talent of the artist that matters most, but better software always helps and it must be remembered that processor power has increased hugely since the time trebs & I were active with tS (makes us sound like old, old men) so it surprises me that we're not seeing works with more scope.
As for the "tough love" forum, I think this would be an excellent idea, at least for those who are really serious about learning and producing quality work with tS. No doubt many are very happy with the level they are at and that's fine. I bet some are not though, and would as I did, appreciate having their work dissected. So long as everyone knows what the deal is, and knows not to get offended by forthright views which may not agree with their own, it could be a very stimulating exercise for all.
Phil
Phil !
Good to see you around again.
I've got some good memories of straight talk without cotton wool padding.
Rob. |
Post by Dragneye // Dec 13, 2007, 11:26pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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..."Lots of people post into the "Work in Progress" forum. Any pros, former users or experts if they want to contribute to an overall improvement in the quality of the gallery could start by offering help and advice there..."
I agree
"...As for the "tough love" forum, I think this would be an excellent idea, at least for those who are really serious about learning and producing quality work with tS. No doubt many are very happy with the level they are at and that's fine. I bet some are not though, and would as I did, appreciate having their work dissected. So long as everyone knows what the deal is, and knows not to get offended by forthright views which may not agree with their own, it could be a very stimulating exercise for all..."
I also agree
Not all my work here is the 'best it could have been', but this is a totally new world for me, and not all my pieces are made as 'commercial quality' items, but just trying, and offering what I Can do so far, is better than not exposing me at all.
Ultimately, my goal is to make a buck at this, so even though any true artist's... (let's call it 'ego' for lack of a better word) gets dented quite easily, because their visions are personal and their efforts run deep, I for one have ingrained, that critique (when given pure, not as their ego trip, and, with explanations as to why something I do isn't working) is needed for growth.
I am willing to be the first 'recipient' in any future 'Tough Love Forum'.
So, using a phrase I would hear from my good ole days... "Let's get it on"!! |
Post by TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb // Dec 14, 2007, 3:01am
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TheWickedWitchOfTheWeb
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A separate 'tough love' forum would be awckward as those not using it would be admitting to not wanting honest opinions!
The way I see it is; if you want honest feedback, comments and critiques of your work then that's what the WIP forum is for (not rudeness but constructive criticism). You don't have to take on board every piece of advice but you'll learn much from it and see things from different perspectives. If you don't want to hear what people think, don't post there, wait until you think it's finished and stick it in the Finished Artwork forum. That, by it's very name, says 'finished, done, like it or not, I'm moving on'.
The current WIP forum should be what some are asking for already. Those that don't want it that way should maybe get one of the scriptors to knock up a random compliment generator button and use that instead! :-) |
Post by Dragneye // Dec 14, 2007, 7:08am
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Dragneye
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That's cute WWOTW.. 'random compliment generator' - I like it.
I wouldn't ever want it, but ya made me smile. |
Post by Steinie // Dec 14, 2007, 10:08am
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Well I showed it my work, pushed the button and heard PtfsssshhhhhhyechPTUI... |
Post by Dragneye // Dec 14, 2007, 10:23pm
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Dragneye
Total Posts: 602
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Ummm, Steinie... which language version were you using? |
Post by 3dfrog // Dec 16, 2007, 8:12am
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Total Posts: 1225
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I have gotten quite good feedback on the forum. People have been very honest with me I feel and I have made major revisions to stuff based on feedback. I don't think we need a special tough love forum. People should expect honest feedback. I think it's common sense to not say "it's crap" but to give constructive criticism. Most people seem to manage to be constructive. But if someone told me my stuff was crap I wouldn't be offended either, I would take it or leave it. Maybe I have thick skin from those years at art school and showing my work around. Well, I don't know what my point is, I just hope people feel they can give honest criticism. |
Post by Burnart // Dec 16, 2007, 12:29pm
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"Tough love?" - I'm sorry I still don't get it. Sounds like a justification for bullying as a management/teaching method and always will. Frankly I don't see it as even relevant as this isn't a production pipeline its a bunch of people with a shared interest bouncing ideas, techniques and inspiration off each.
Constructive advice is a concept I understand - ie. "user "x" I think your work could be improved by desaturating the colours in the background, shifting your composition to the left a little and adding a shallow depth of field...." and so on. Surely detailed criticism which includes potential solutions/suggestions/advice is what's required? Surely, its what people regularly ask for in the forums? You don't have to have a thick skin to benefit in that context.
There are all kinds of reasons why many of us don't reach a professional standard - time, general knowldege of art and/or 3d principles etc. Perhaps its also because many of us aren't professionals and are unlikely to become such. Don't assume that people aren't aware of their own limitations and current level of skill. Some of us get a big kick out of small increments in skill and knowledge.
I could rant and rave on this for ages (lets face it, its easier than 3D!) but I won't, although I'd like to throw in this food for thought - when advising/helping someone don't always assume that realism is the long term goal. |
Post by splinters // Dec 16, 2007, 2:36pm
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I have been watching this thread with some interest and feel the need to chip in. Question here is: what exactly do you want to gain from posting your work on this forum? If it is a WIP then surely you expect some constructive advice, but if it is for the gallery then surely you are effectively saying "this is my work, I think it is good enough to win, what do you think". And therein lies the problem, you are putting your work on show and asking for feedback of some sort.
If you opened a real gallery exhibition of art then you should expect to be ripped to pieces by the critics, the responses around here are certainly more 'gentle' than that.
So, I take no side here (tough or gentle approach) but perhaps the best bet is to keep anything 'experimental' as a WIP to gain feedback on improving your skills and post only that which you believe stands up to close scrutiny.
If you think these comments are cruel then try posting on CG cociety or similar. I don't agree with their almost snobbish approach but if tS is to be taken seriously against the other packages then the quality of work on show has to be equally good. Without a gentle 'nudge' that might not happen around here.
Okay, that's my bit...;) |
Post by phlewp // Jul 26, 2008, 12:06am
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I have been watching this thread with some interest and feel the need to chip in. Question here is: what exactly do you want to gain from posting your work on this forum? If it is a WIP then surely you expect some constructive advice, but if it is for the gallery then surely you are effectively saying "this is my work, I think it is good enough to win, what do you think". And therein lies the problem, you are putting your work on show and asking for feedback of some sort.
If you opened a real gallery exhibition of art then you should expect to be ripped to pieces by the critics, the responses around here are certainly more 'gentle' than that.
So, I take no side here (tough or gentle approach) but perhaps the best bet is to keep anything 'experimental' as a WIP to gain feedback on improving your skills and post only that which you believe stands up to close scrutiny.
If you think these comments are cruel then try posting on CG cociety or similar. I don't agree with their almost snobbish approach but if tS is to be taken seriously against the other packages then the quality of work on show has to be equally good. Without a gentle 'nudge' that might not happen around here.
Okay, that's my bit...;)
I think a lot of people post not to get constructive criticism, but rather a pat on the back.
As for CGSociety/CGTalk, they can be somewhat snobbish, but even that place has dwindled into nothing more than a "GREAT WORK 5 STARS FROM ME!!!!" love fest. Quite sad really.
As for those who say it's the artist and not the tools.... they're only half right. After all, you can't paint with a pencil. Not only that, but the more powerful and flexible and intuitive a package is, the more natural one can work. When I used to use tS back in the days of versions 3 and 4 (and continued using version 4 until well after 5 had been released), people were spending lots of time creating workarounds for the software's limitations. This is not a good thing when it comes to art. When you spend more time trying to force software to do what you want, than actually having it do what you want the first time around, it's never a good thing. It takes time, it ruins the creative flow, and chances are, the results will be subpar at best.
As for the original topic (and here's where most people here will disagree with me), I fully agree with trebs, and have been saying the same thing for years. One would think that as the software matures, and the users mature, the quality would go up. That doesn't seem to be the case at all. As has already been suggested, it's quite possible that as artists develop, they move on to better software, which brings me to my previous point. Yes, I said it. Better software. I've seen for many years now, people saying tS is capable of hanging with the "big boys". The fact of the matter is, it is not. And while I don't use tS anymore, and haven't tried tS 7.6 for more than an hour since it became free (and even then, only to import old models and export them out as obj), I can say that with confidence because the industry acceptance of tS has been low to non-existent. And it has nothing to do with some kind of personal bias in the industry. People (and studios) in general use the tools that are better suited for the job. This is why it's not uncommon for many different applications to be used in a production pipeline. Now, I'm not making this point just to bash tS. I'm making this point because it pertains to the original topic at hand. Generally, you're going to find that pros are better than amateurs and hobbyists. This is for two of many reasons: They enjoy what they do enough to make a living, and they're good enough to do it for a living. Chances are they've also been at it awhile, thus they've had more time to develop their skills. And, because the industry is a competitive one, you'll find a higher ratio of highly talented artists to poor ones than you will in the hobbyist market. tS is still mostly (and maybe almost exclusively) a hobbyist's tool, and as such, you're going to see more people who are new and learning, which usually translates to work of lesser quality. And because it is a hobbyist's tool, those who wish to make a career of it, are simply going to have to move on to something else. Even those hobbyists with no intention of "going pro" may be compelled to move on, as they've outgrown the software. I think this is clearly evident by the fact that the gallery hasn't grown in leaps and bounds over the years. |
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